Where is ST really headed and what does it need?

[Bob Hartig]

EDIT: A number of posts have been made between the time I began writing the one below and the time I actually posted it. Obviously, I haven't had time to read those intervening posts. If anything that follows is redundant to other people's ideas, bear with me.
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I agree with much of what Shane has said in his well-thought-out proposal. I'll play off of it to offer a few thoughts of my own:

* Closing off the Target Area to non-members: I'd love to see the content tightened down to truly informative stuff. I say this with humility, knowing that my personal forecasting skills have plenty of room for growth, and I often wonder what value my own contributions offer when I make them. Nevertheless, I think there's a benchmark of knowledge and exposure to concepts that a person needs to meet before being allowed to comment in the forecast/now discussions in particular.

Moreover, I dislike the thought that a good number of lurkers just want to find out where experienced chasers think the action is going to be. While the roads belong to everyone, there are enough serious chasers on them already, and I wonder whether hiding the forecast/now discussions would cut some of the clutter by eliminating the forecast leeches.

This being said, I have to remember how it was for me when I first got involved with ST. I lurked for probably a good year at least, just trying to absorb the terms and concepts. Once I became a member, which process required that I write an essay describing my hopes and goals in doing so, it was still a long time before I screwed up enough courage to offer a comment in the forecast section. I simply had more to learn than I had to offer--but I wanted to learn, and I wanted to get to where I could make meaningful contributions.

To that end, I found the forecast discussions absolutely invaluable, even if I didn't understand 90 percent of what was being said. Based on my personal experience, I think that exposure to the actual discussions is critical to a chaser's development. Concepts such as CAPE, helicity, moisture return, capping, and so forth only become meaningful when a person sees how they're used in actual discussions among seasoned chasers who build on and challenge or affirm each others' forecasting insights. It's in the forecast discussions that a newbie sees firsthand how theory plays out in the real world, and I don't think anything short of having a mentor can replace that experience.

So, how can the content be improved and forecast leeches be eliminated while still allowing those who are serious about learning the ropes to learn from the TA discussions? I think it amounts to this: some kind of admittance process needs to be established for the TA forums, one that will allow new members--not lurkers--access to the information, and in due time, the ability to contribute.

Since I'm thinking as I write, this part isn't something I've thought through in detail. At this point, it's just a concept that I may have more to say about later. My point is, there has got to be a way to reconcile the practical needs of prospective chasers who really want to learn with the needs of seasoned members who want to preserve the quality and integrity of the TA discussions.

* B&G: If this section is going to be a hot spot for bickering and flame wars, then it needs to be closed. I hate to say this, since I enjoy a lot of what goes on in the B&G. But it's not worth the vitriol that sometimes gets traded in the name of heated debate, "calling it like I see it," and so on. And the B&G is simply not central to the mission of Stormtrack.

If it had been called the "Coffee Shop" instead of the "Bar and Grill," would the conversations have been different? Maybe, maybe not. Something to think about, but the bottom line is still, if we can't handle freedom of speech without it degenerating into verbal brawls which separate the Stormtrack community into Hatfields and McCoys, then there are some topics that we just don't need to discuss. For me, the "Boobies" thread wasn't an issue to challenge; for others, it was; but in any case, it had nothing to do with storm chasing.

That's it for me for now. Thanks to all who are pressing beyond the pissing, moaning, diatribe, and differences toward some genuinely helpful ideas for improving Stormtrack.

 

[Kevin Walters]

I see the term "newbie" used frequently by some that post on Storm Track. It would be wise to consider the possibility that some of the members that do not post often, may in fact be seasoned chasers. Who would make the distinction and classify individuals for different levels of participation on this forum? As far as "lurking" goes, what is the official threshold for being considered a "lurker"?

 

[Andrew Ryan]

Just to let everyone know, the Forecast & Nowcasts forum is private. If you log off you will see that you can't access any of the threads. But the Reports & Discussion forum is still public.

 

[Steve Miller]

Dang Andrew, my argument is null I guess. That's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back. So I guess it's safe to say the classic forecast thread posts by some of the "old timers" will never be back... Oh well

Kevin: YES, I and many others, will consider you a noob here until you contribute enough to not be. There is a problem with self entitlement of late. Some will not see eye to eye with me on this but until you post proof you chase storms, you are just another enthusiast to me. I have nothing against enthusiasts unless they are disruptive to the flow of things on this chaser forum. You have to understand you can't come here in Jan of 09 with 23 posts and expect to have street cred. I'm sorry.

 

[Clarence Bennett]

When I first came to storm track I was new to storm chasing. I think I had chased only a few years. I had learned mostly on my own, and I was still relatively inexperienced at chasing. At the beginning I learned allot from, and was somewhat reliant on storm track to help me nail down some ideas.

However, today it is far different. Today I am a graduate of an astrophysics program, and am now in a graduate student in astronomy. Due to my interest in weather, my research interests are significantly different from what I thought I would be researching in astronomy. I am now active in planetary weather modeling.

What saddens me is that I have now reached a point where most of my questions can no longer be answered by the community at large here at storm track. While I have plenty of people to turn to ask questions to in my research which deals with non-earth atmospheres, it is difficult for me to quickly get in touch with people who can answers the questions which are indirectly related to my research, and are usually earth/storm chasing focused. It is weird to me being able to freely communicate with the astronomical science community, but find difficulty when trying to communicate with the meteorological science community. The few times I have tried, I usually have had to use my few contacts within the astronomical community that know people in the meteorological community, but even then I have found resistance to answer questions. It is understandable since we are busy professionals in our respective professions, but I more and more have come to believe there should be more interdisciplinary discussion. My only good fortune is that usually I can find the answers to the questions I have in scientific journals. However, I find it to be a much slower way of learning. This is because another person can usually help guide you through the stumbling blocks that they too once encountered.

I think my discussion above shows that I wish there was more advanced weather/modeling related discussion on this board. However, I’m not sure of what the future for storm track will actually be. It’s hard to call the advanced weather discussion advanced, when I’m not even sure the term navier stokes has ever come up. My only suggestion is that we move past this bickering, which is likely small posturing for “statusâ€￾, even if it is subconscious. Instead, storm track should try to cultivate an even stronger atmosphere of learning. And with a utopia like closing statement, maybe then we might see people return to this board willing to share their knowledge.

The most intelligent post yet and it seems to go unnoticed.

 

[Kevin Walters]

Dang Andrew, my argument is null I guess. That's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back. So I guess it's safe to say the classic forecast thread posts by some of the "old timers" will never be back... Oh well

Kevin: YES, I and many others, will consider you a noob here until you contribute enough to not be. There is a problem with self entitlement of late. Some will not see eye to eye with me on this but until you post proof you chase storms, you are just another enthusiast to me. I have nothing against enthusiasts unless they are disruptive to the flow of things on this chaser forum. You have to understand you can't come here in Jan of 09 with 23 posts and expect to have street cred. I'm sorry.

I don't feel the need to as you put it "have street cred" I enjoy chasing and have done so for a few years. I have enjoyed a certain amount of success. Many of the posters on this board are in the same age group as my own children. I understand some of the thought process that goes into certain posts. We all do things in our own way and that is the way it should be done.

 

[Jay McCoy]

Kevin its nothing personal but you have to understand we have had lots of people come on here and claim to have been chasing for years (even though nobody heard of them or knew them) and expected us to give their posts merit based on their word instead of the substance of their posts. Thats where the "street credit" comes in. Respect and/or trust isnt given freely or easliy. Especially when you have had some of the jerks we had had around here so us "old timers" tend to go by what people post or what we see them do in the field before we give them anything but noob status. We all had to earn it over the years.

I know it will wrinkle a few feathers but I dont give as much respect to todays chasers as I do the old timers simply because nowadays they have it soooo much easier when it comes to chasing and catching a tornado. Now almost anybody with a laptop and internet can score. I bet less than half of the chasers who have only been chasing since say 2000 could do it without internet/laptop/cell and the SPC to guide them. Let them try blind with only a map and morning models/currents score a tornado then I am impressed. Thats not being elitist. Thats reality. Luckliy for them they dont have to chase that way. I am glad I dont have to anymore either...lol

 

[Adam Lucio]

The most intelligent post yet and it seems to go unnoticed.

We chase storms on planet earth. We're not trying to calculate how much snow fell on Pluto last week...oh wait Pluto Isn't a planet anymore. While I think Roberts work is interesting since I have an interest in astronomy, this is a storm chasing forum, not an astro-physicists forum. So IMO I thought it was a moot example even though I get what he was trying to say.

I think it would be a shame to lose the B&G. Somewhere beneath all this mess there is this mentality that all storm chasers are supposed to these clean cut tech geeks who dont like act like...a normal man [for lack of a better term.] God forbid a STORM CHASER mentions something above a pg-13 rating. *GASP*!!!!

Sometimes the simplest solution is the best. Don't like it don't read it, I can't think of a better solution then for these sensitive types to just back off when they see something they don't like. Afterall thats how this whole mess got started.

I also think the lack of interesting weather [aside from yesterday] has played a major role. I used to update my website frequently but lately Ive been brain dead of ideas for updates...there just isn't that much to talk about at the moment.

Things like blizzards, volcanoes, earthquakes, even hurricanes only cater to a small percentage of the general storm chasing community. The main element is severe thunderstorms and tornadoes...when they lack so do topics of discussion.

I was never a fan of the whole beginners/advanced forum topic splits. I think we should indeed bring back the educational section, the general weather section and the chase related section...or however it was oriented before the switch.

 

[Robert Edmonds]

We chase storms on planet earth. We're not trying to calculate how much snow fell on Pluto last week...oh wait Pluto Isn't a planet anymore. While I think Roberts work is interesting since I have an interest in astronomy, this is a storm chasing forum, not an astro-physicists forum. So IMO I thought it was a moot example even though I get what he was trying to say.

What saddens me is that I have now reached a point where most of my questions can no longer be answered by the community at large here at storm track. While I have plenty of people to turn to ask questions to in my research which deals with non-earth atmospheres, it is difficult for me to quickly get in touch with people who can answers the questions which are indirectly related to my research, and are usually earth/storm chasing focused. It is weird to me being able to freely communicate with the astronomical science community, but find difficulty when trying to communicate with the meteorological science community. The few times I have tried, I usually have had to use my few contacts within the astronomical community that know people in the meteorological community, but even then I have found resistance to answer questions. It is understandable since we are busy professionals in our respective professions, but I more and more have come to believe there should be more interdisciplinary discussion. My only good fortune is that usually I can find the answers to the questions I have in scientific journals. However, I find it to be a much slower way of learning. This is because another person can usually help guide you through the stumbling blocks that they too once encountered.

My post was about looking for answers to questions related to storm chasing...

Side Note: I work just down the hall from someone who is trying to make the first fully 3d dynamic model of Pluto's atmosphere, it's pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Chris Nuttall]

Moderator action regarding reported posts...Here's an idea: A person reports a post that they find offensive. The moderator sees the report, then sends the person a PM back. They tell the person to PM the offender themselves, and attempt to clear things up privately. Since the ST admins can read PMs but don't interefere with them, this allows problems to be worked out amongst the parties involved, without moderation imput. The mods can still observe the process, but are free to deal with other elements of their day-to-day duties. If the situation escalates, it's in PM. No harm no foul.

Unless there is function on the board that I don't know about, we can't see other users' PMs.

 

[Patrick Marsh]

I usually try not to wade into these things, but I do have a couple things I want to contribute. This will be long, so readers beware.

First, a little background about myself and where I am coming from. I grew up in western Arkansas, in the thick of the "jungle". Before I turned 16 I would ride along with others who were "chasers", albeit we never really went more than an hour or two away. After I turned 16 I started chasing on my own - each chase going a little bit farther away from home.

I have a Bachelor's of Science in mathematics and physics from the University of Arkansas. The UofA doesn't have a meteorology program, and their one weather class amounted to nothing more than a glorified high school Earth Science class. I still chased on a limited basis - still primarily in the jungle. I keep referencing the jungle because those of you who have chased there know how frustrating and unrewarding it can be. I didn't really learn much from these chases. Most of my knowledge and understanding came from reading forums such as this one, reading the same SPC products that are frequently bashed on here, and reading local offices' AFDs.

After finishing my undergraduate degree, I came to OU as a potential PhD student in meteorology. I have since earned my masters in meteorology and am a couple years into my PhD. Since coming to OU I have chased only once, and that was on a relatively minor day - although, I did watch a nice RFD surge under a weakly rotating wall-cloud which was pretty sweet.

I say all this for a couple of reasons. I do not have any "big chases" or successes to my name, but I have chased on some big days (such as May 2003). I have never chased west of I-35 or north of Oklahoma. I'm certainly not a big name chaser, nor do I claim to be (most of you probably don't have a clue as to who I am and I'm okay with that). However, I do have probably over 100 chases to my name, but only 1 in the last 5 years. Do I qualify as a bonified chaser? I certainly wouldn't put myself in that category based on the information I've laid out compared to the likes of Shane Adams, Jeff Snyder, and Reed Timmer, etc (all of who have their own styles but love the same thing).

But to my credit, I feel I have something to offer, something to give-back. I say give-back because I know that I owe part of my success at OU to the body of knowledge that was provided to me, free-of-charge, on forums such as these, the SPC website, the NWS local office websites, and on chasers websites. I was able to learn terminology that while I didn't completely understand at the time would enable me to learn quickly here at OU. I don't post as much as others, mainly because I try to stay out of chase-specific discussions. My personal reasoning is that on the rare chance I might get to go chase, I would prefer not to have a ton of other chasers in the same vicinity. If it so happens that other chasers came to the same solution as I did, and happen to be in the same area as I, then more power to them. I won't complain when someone uses their own critical thinking and analysis skills and they come up with a similar solution. I'll applaud them - as they took a chance even though they might have been wrong! Instead, I try to post in response to specific meteorological issues. I don't want to give out correct or incorrect answers, instead I want to give out information that can be used for the forecast at hand and future forecasts. In essence, I want to help people learn to think for themselves - and help them acquire the necessary tools to do so. Just ask my students (a lot of them are on here) - especially the seniors in the Synoptic Meteorology class I'm co-teaching. I don't give them answers, I walk them through the thought process to get the answer themselves, hoping that they learn something about the process and how to do it themselves instead of expecting someone else to think for them.

As a result of my posting philosophy, there are those on here that would classify me as a newbie, noob, lurker, or some derogatory name like that. There are even others who would want me removed from the forum altogether. To be perfectly honest, I'm okay with that. It is your right to think that. Futhermore, if you don't want me as a member, then why would I want to stick around. Just PM me or make a post stating that you think I should leave (I won't take it as a personal attack), and if that's what I sense as the mood on here, I'm more than happy to leave. I'll even post a poll if that's what people want and let the majority decide whether I belong. I don't really care, because in the end, I'll still try to help those who email me questions or have me as an instructor.

Also, since I imagine I'm not the only person who (did) does not have the resources to get a BS in meteorology, I think it would be a travesty to make ST a completely closed forum. I think there are a lot of future meteorologists out there that are "lurking" on forums like these trying to glean every last bit of meteorology they can - just like I did when I was younger. I think the constant name calling and attacking this portion of the population is a shame. Let them lurk and learn. (However, lurkers should also respect the process enough to not jump into a flame war.)

To this end, I'd like to suggest the following.

1. Reduce the portions of the forum that are available to non-members. This would allow Tim and the moderators to have a better idea of who is actually reading the forums by forcing people to sign up. Arguably, a better accounting of who is on the forum could help setting a more appropriate rate to host advertisements and decrease the need for donations and membership fees.
   
   
2. Make the entire forum readable for all members. (This will make more sense as you read.)
   
   
3. Turn off new-members ability to post in what is the current ST sections.
   
   
4. Create a new section in ST for new-members only. Do not give seasoned ST members the ability to post in this section, but enable them to read. Do not make this section public. The intent of this is to force new members to see how ST is run and operated before being granted full privileges. They can read all posts in the rest of the site and see what goes on in there, but they would not be able to contribute. New users would be required to demonstrate they understand ST's rules and procedures before being granted full member privileges. By allowing seasoned members to read new members posts, seasoned members would be allowed to suggest granting full membership to a new member via PM to the moderators / Tim. I would make it an infractionable offense for full members to do any of the following:
   
   
   • Tease, harass, condemn new members (or anything else along these lines).
   • Make public any support or opposition to granting a new member full
     membership
   
   The reason I would make these infractionable is to prevent seasoned members from picking on or (for a lack of better term) devouring new members. This would also, hopefully, keep new users from being intimidated.

The thinking behind this is that lurkers would still be allowed to learn and lurk, but would not have the ability to contribute to a flame war. Furthermore, new users would be given a chance to see how things work before being given the opportunity to jump into a flame war. Ideally, I'd love to see this turn into some sort of online mentoring where a seasoned veteran of the forum would kind of mentor a new-comer to the forum, but I won't get my hopes up too high. Not everyone can devote that kind of time - myself included.

Lastly, in my opinion, I see a lot of gang mentality in some of the flame wars. Person A picks on Person B who is aligned (unofficially of course) with Clique B so all of Clique B attacks Person A. At this point everyone in Clique A aligned with Person A will jump to Person A's defense and so now the flame war has escalated from being between Persons A and B to Cliques A and B. At this point the flame war is already out of control. I understand that in this day that it is easy (and natural) to gravitate toward people with a similar belief structure as yours and to see an attack on someone with a similar belief structure as you as an attack on your belief structure. However, this leads to the actions described above and the vicious cycle that ST falls into every fall / winter. I'm not condemning this behavior, merely pointing it out.

To those who are worried about ST falling by the wayside, I issue this personal challenge. Put your love and respect for ST above your dislike and distaste of other individuals. When someone else says something you don't agree with or don't like, let it go - and keep ST moving in the right direction - instead of attacking the person you disagree with - and setting ST back to the beginning (much as what happens every fall).


PS...In the spirit of full disclosure, I would like to add that I used to get involved in heated debates of my own kind. I've gone round and round with Mike Smith on global warming. I've gone head-to-toe with rdale on this forum and other forums about a lot of things. A lot of this was because I was a lot more immature, and I thought I was a hotshot up and comer. I wanted to stake my claim in the field and prove myself. I'm not immune to the behavior I'm describing above. However, as I've matured as a scientist, I've learned that some things aren't worth fighting about. That fighting gets in the way of my advancing the science and field that I love very much and that I might be the reason a young person might get discouraged with the field and leave it. I didn't / don't want to be the reason I deprive the science of a great mind. As such, I'm trying to keep a cool head - which isn't always easy.

 

[Brian Barnes]

Even though I have a lot of trouble focusing my attention through really long threads, I'm going to try to focus on this so I can get it all off my chest. Oh look, a kitty.....

 

[Adam Lucio]

(However, lurkers should also respect the process enough to not jump into a flame war.)

Exactly. You are not coming in here and telling us what to do or how our forum should be run, THAT is what pisses people off the most and its those people we want to do away with. Believe me almost everyone in here would encourage a new chaser to pursue their passion but at the same token we wont tolerate noobish behavior and that is "I just bought 10000 dollars worth of gear now tell me how to use it all to get storms."

Your post also illustrates why it would be nice to know the background of people who are lesser known...they may be credited individuals but until they can show something for it a name is just a name.

 

[Richard Dickson]

The idea of being invited to participate in the Target Area postings has a lot of merit, but I can foresee some folks never getting invited because they haven’t made enough friends to support them. As an alternative, would it be possible to formally request to the mods or some committee to be admitted to post in those sections and then take an online test? The test would be one of maybe a dozen situations with sufficient information given that person could demonstrate basic storm knowledge by deriving their target area and offering supporting ideas as to why they chose it. This would show they meet a least the minimums to sit at the table with the grownups. It would not be to the advantage of anyone else to help them select an answer because they would then have to listen to someone who shouldn't have been allowed to participate.

Bringing back the Educational Forum would be a tremendous benefit to newer folks who seriously want to improve their knowledge. I don’t know what it would take to do that, but if it could be done, please let it happen.

 

[Patrick Marsh]

The idea of being invited to participate in the Target Area postings has a lot of merit, but I can foresee some folks never getting invited because they haven’t made enough friends to support them. As an alternative, would it be possible to formally request to the mods or some committee to be admitted to post in those sections and then take an online test? The test would be one of maybe a dozen situations with sufficient information given that person could demonstrate basic storm knowledge by deriving their target area and offering supporting ideas as to why they chose it. This would show they meet a least the minimums to sit at the table with the grownups. It would not be to the advantage of anyone else to help them select an answer because they would then have to listen to someone who shouldn't have been allowed to participate.

Bringing back the Educational Forum would be a tremendous benefit to newer folks who seriously want to improve their knowledge. I don’t know what it would take to do that, but if it could be done, please let it happen.

My idea is that the moderators and Tim would monitor the new-users forum and promote people as they are deemed ready. I see no reason why a user could not ask to be promoted to full member...I just failed to include those possibilities in my original suggestion.