Where is ST really headed and what does it need?

[Jason Foster]

Tim V.:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Educational forum basically turned into the "Weather Discussion - Beginners" at the same time the "advanced" discussion was created. I believe that was perhaps a year or more ago.

 

[Marcus Hicks]

As a noob on the forum I will go ahead and weigh in.

My purpose in joining ST was an educational one. The Forecast/Nowcast is where I have found more of the technical discussions and the practical application of modeling. Do I personally leech from them? My answer would have to be no. But I do read them as confirmation of my own forecast and if I am wrong I don't just change my target based on what is posted I go back and see where I messed up. Maybe I didn't take some other factors into consideration.

With that being said, I have not contributed in those threads because quite frankly, if I do not have anything to add that enhances the current forecast/nowcast discussion I do not post as with any other thread. I would look like an idiot just posting "I agree with so and so". Just only within the last 3yrs I have learned to layer the data models for a more accurate target area and want to build upon those skills. I have successfully intercepted storms and caught tornado's and have been doing it for about 8yrs but I know I am not where I could be as far as skills go.

Am I a real chaser? I suppose that is a matter of opinion. But I know I am.

I feel that locking certain members from those areas hinders to a small degree ones ability to see the practical application of the models. I too get peeved at SPC reposts because,
1. I've already read it the at the SPC site
2. they don't add to or enhance the discussion just add noise.
3. The SPC is not a secret site that we don't all already know about

Now if making those areas privet to only a selected group is the right way to go for ST (and it very well could be), maybe repost or archive forecast/nowcast discussions the next day for say someone like me to see where I messed up. But people, the leeches are reading our blogs, twitter, MySpace, or facebook pages for the targets anyway.

I know the basic and advanced areas are supposed to be the educational sections but seems to be more like general weather related discussion area.

I also agree with others that this is not the place for armchair chasers or weather enthusiasts only. I feel that way because, if they don't chase or spot what value do they bring to ST with ST being a chaser forum. I am not here (on ST) to piss anyone off or convince people I am a chaser or to like me. For me it's the learning aspect. If I meet new people make new friends I consider that a bonus (we maybe, as I have met some in the past I wish I didn't)

This is just my $0.02 in this discussion and can live with whatever decisions are made.

On a side note as a new person here I have already spotted a few non chaser instigators because they make it too easy and I agree they should be weeded out. Again they bring no value here nor will they other than to stoke the fires. Maybe ditch the "$5.00 gets you access" and keep the essay format and/or by invitation.

 

[Joshua Nall]

So am I a newb, newbie, or noob? Even that has been debated I think. After reading through "most" of this thread my immediate thought is "its just really not that complicated". I like ST. I like the posts that are about an interesting news article now and then... I like the post that are just a few interesting weather pictures someone has taken... I like reading the more advanced stuff, because I'm inquisitive, and mostly I like to read reports where people share their experiences.
As for as the problems... I feel they are not as seroius as some would seem to make it, but then again, I'm a newb.

Mostly, people need to better govern themselves. And for the ones here that don't... the rest need to do a better job of ignoring them.

I'm not sure I completely understood all the suggestions about criteria for being able to post in the Target Area, but I'll voice my interests. I am mainly interested in reading about other chaser's experiences, and sharing my own. I like to read about what they saw and learned after the fact, and even some of the post analysis that goes on.

This next bit will I'm sure make some of you cringe, but I don't have much interest in forecasting other than looking at a model now and then for the heck of it. I doubt I will ever want to post in the forecast thread, so whatever happens with that is fine with me. I do read them, but I have never based where I go off of what someone said in the forecast thread. I find some of the premature back and forth forecast to be a bit funny sometimes, folks get frustrated by the models...but that is just the way it is 3 days out. I monitor SPC updates and I read the individual national weather service forecast updates. I monitor local conditions the day of and then watch visible sat. and radar extremely closely for boundaries, etc. If what I do now fails me to the point of disappointment, then I will learn to forecast. When I was a kid, I was enthralled by radar loops, even today I will sit and watch them loop 20 or more times, watching the motions of the storms, trying to figure out what they are doing and what they are going to do next. Then of course once I get on one, my eye goes to the sky. Just a little bit put off by the snide remarks once in a while about those who do not forecast. But even if I was blasted and said I could never be one of "you" I don't care, I would still be out there being me and doing what I do, seeing the same stuff you see. Some of you will argue that I don't see as much as you, and some of you would probably be right.

When I go fishing I ask others about what the fish are biting, I don't do some sort of long analysis. If I were to want to photograph a solar eclipse I would search out a paper written by someone who has figured out when and where the best place to do that is. I don't have to know every fact about every player, and make predictions about who will win, and where the major battles will take place, to enjoy a good football game.... if any of you get my point. That does not mean I don't respect and admire all the forecastors on this forum. I guess I said all that to say I don't really have an opinion about what happens in the forecast area, haha.

My passion is extreme weather. I have free access to those that have gone to school for 6 or 8 years to figure out about where it will take place. Just the facts.

Josh

 

[David Wolfson]

A lot of the comments seem to be about noise in the TA -- a rather long-standing issue. I'd again like to put up my suggestion that posting in the FCST and NOW areas be limited to those who plan to be or are chasing on the particular day and in that region -- and their designated nowcasters. Everyone else, including even guru chasers who aren't in the field, posts to a virtual thread which can be much more loosely moderated. FWIW.

 

[Bryan Stokes]

I think the time has come to post my thoughts. While I certainly agree that a few non-chasers/non-forecasting are contributing significant noise to Stormtrack, please keep in mind that there is also another group of new folks out there that are likely taking the correct steps in the development of their forecasting and/or chasing skills.

Having a 15-year obsession with understanding the sky, my interest in severe weather peaked when I moved to Wichita a couple of years ago. I was excited to find Stormtrack because it was a home for serious enthusiasts and weather professionals. As we all know, there are plenty of websites (on any subject) that contain lots of banter and noise, but Stormtrack seemed to be different. It appeared as if Stormtrack had an eclectic mix of forecasting professionals and seasoned-chasers. The content was tightly controlled and for the most part, on-topic. I liked the idea of a controlled membership since it helped alleviate the “Dude, I just saw Twister and now I wanna see a tornado” crowd. I could also tell that there must have been an open period of registration at some point in the past, since there seemed to be a few folks injecting noise on a regular basis. But for the most part, things seemed to be under control and I figured any noisemakers from the open registration period would be weeded out or fade away with time.

So there I sat in January of 2008 looking at Stormtrack for the first time. Like many others, I spent hundreds of hours on the internet reading and learning about severe weather. But no matter what, I always spent more time on Stormtrack than any other site due to quality and in-depth information. Next came the spotter class and then a carefully controlled entry into chasing in the field. These initial chases in the spring of 2008 really opened up my eyes and my interest in weather skyrocketed. As the season died down, I realized that I had found something special and I had an internal calling to learn more.

Next came a series of Tim’s books on forecasting and chasing weather. I spent the better part of 9 months learning as much as I could digest academically, and of course, I was glued to Stormtrack every step of the way as a non-member. Following this, I realized this was not just a passing interest and I applied to become a member of Stormtrack. Staying true to Stormtrack’s mission and focus, I wrote an essay describing my background/interest in weather and why I wanted to be a contributing member of this website. It was a big moment for me, and today I feel like the essay is an important step in one’s commitment to being a productive member of Stormtrack’s society. A few weeks later, I was accepted and I began my next phase of development as a chaser.

In 2009, I was able to attend the NSSC, the CPSWS, and 18 days of chasing in the field. My eyes were opened even wider and my thirst for knowledge grew even stronger. I am now in love with learning how to forecast and at 39 years old, I am considering the possibility of going back to school for a formal education in meteorology.

Normally, I tread lightly and keep these sorts of thoughts to myself. So why am I sharing this with you? Because Stormtrack was an integral part of my development and if it weren’t for this website, I may not have developed the passion I have today. As Stormtrack evolves, I respectfully ask that you keep this one fact in mind: not all newbies are in it for glory nor do all newbies contribute a high noise to signal ratio. Many of us are here because we’ve developed the same passion as you – a desire to better understand the sky and the incredible power of severe weather.

With that in mind, Tim’s asked for opinions. Here's what I suggest:

Stormtrack should keep a tight control on accepting new members. I think the essay format works well. Is it infallible? No. But it speaks to one’s desire to be a contributing member to this website.

I think Stormtrack should make an effort to prune members that don’t belong here. I realize it is very difficult to determine who, but there are some that stand out. When someone is in question, give him or her a chance to write an essay on why they belong here. If anything, it will help serve as their personal commitment to the founding principles of this website.

Just like last Fall, continue to prune folks with zero posts or an extremely small amount of posts over a large period of time. (for example, someone that’s posted 4 times in 3 years) If the majority of Stormtrack remains viewable to the public, then there is no need to be a member to lurk. Give any members in question a chance to respond before deleting their account.

Crack down on members that are always rude or who continually throw flames. I’m not saying that Stormtrack should become a utopian society (that would be boring!) but there is a way to express a difference of opinion without defamation. If someone really doesn’t get it, then maybe it’s time for them to go.

Always strive for consistent moderation. I am not saying that the current moderation team is doing a bad job – I’m just saying that remaining consistent takes constant work and internal reflection. Moderators have emotions and personal beliefs too, so each one has a different tolerance level for different things. As the mods already do, continue to talk amongst yourselves and forge the way ahead as a team. I also thank you for your tireless work!

Ok, if you've made it this far in reading my post, I commend you! I woke up in the middle of the night and had to type these thoughts -- I hope they are somewhat clear.

I’m glad that Stormtrack is having an open discussion on how to make things better and I look forward to seeing where things evolve.

Bryan

 

[Robert Dewey]

I don't really like the forum being divided into "Beginners" and "Advanced." In theory, it's nice... but both categories have topics that are roughly the same. It just seems a little redundant.

For example, the topic "Downslope warming and convective initiation" thread is located in the "beginners" section, while "Angry Planet episodes now online" thread is located in the "advanced" section.

 

[Kris Hair]

Instead of keeping someone from seeing a "beginner" or "advanced" discussion, I know the board is capable of limiting posting abilities.

Just a thought...

 

[Steve Miller]

I honestly can't figure out why people latch on to the newbie badge as being a derogatory term like they do. Since it was mentioned in this thread early on there has been post after post about the definition of a newbie, the justification for one not being a newbie, and then posts about how one does not care what everyone else thinks and to hell with the system.

Listen, everyone is new at something at one time or another. Fact is, with chasing, 90% of our existence is online in communities just like this one. Those who have been around a while know if you are new to the hobby or not by simply reading your posts. There is nothing wrong with being new and there is definitely nothing wrong with posting something you are not sure you have your facts straight on as a newb. Just expect some feedback and don’t get defensive when you are corrected.
I would venture to guess the only time those who have been around a while (I'll not use the word "vet" since that apparently upsets people too) talk down to another member on this board is when they’re being disrespectful or deliberately disrupting flow by inserting themselves where they do not belong; such as dropping one-liners in a forecast thread that has nothing to do with topic at hand, getting heavily involved in a thread without having read any post prior to the most current post by another user, and my least favorite, the lack of use of the search function in this forum. Every time I see a new “which cell data carrier is better†thread I want to strangle someone. Do a search and resurrect an old thread for the love of god, don’t create a new one!
Forecast threads are intimidating. You have to jump in there and read them. As you do so you will gain the knowledge to contribute. As you contribute you will gain respect within the community and with respect comes the dropping of the "newb" badge.
It should be noted to those who think post count gets you out of the newb category. Nope. Look to the left there. I have a little over 300 posts and have been on this forum a long time (granted at one time I lost some posts due to an account issue). It’s not the number of posts; it’s the quality of what you write. Don’t go spewing crap in a forecast, now or report thread so you can boost your numbers. You’ll be a newb with a high post count!
I digress.
You should not expect to come in to any online community and be considered at the top of your game just because you bought a membership. Take the time to learn and then post. Make sure you utilize the Reports threads and show that you actively participate in storm chasing. If you want the respect and recognition, earn it.

 

[Darren Addy]

I agree with Robert about the problems with the Beginner and Advanced sections. Some of the topics posted in "advanced weather" have nothing to do with weather at all and some would have been more appropriate in B&G.

I also think there are problems in defining (in some cases) what is a "beginner" topic and what is an "advanced" topic. This is understandable, since it is a bit subjective. It seems that sometime people are less concerned about the topic than in being considered a "beginner" chaser and so they post in the Advanced category regardless of the topic.

There has also appeared to be little moderation in terms of moving (or perhaps even caring) if a topic is posted in the proper forum category. (I'm sure this is a big PITA for moderators to deal with and it would be best if posters just used a little common sense in choosing the proper forum for their topic).

 

[Bob Hartig]

I agree that the distinction between the Beginner and Advanced categories gets fuzzy at times, but there was a reason for divvying them up--i.e. an attempt to reduce noise for more advanced chasers while meeting the educational needs of newbies--so I wouldn't be too quick to dispose of the concept when it might just require some tweaking.

"Advanced" is going to mean different things to different people depending on their level of knowledge and experience. But a key criterion could be whether one contributes meaningfully to forecast discussions. The ability to do so suggests that a person has already digested the basics, and that the questions he/she asks will probably deal with weightier matters that won't have the more knowledgeable here rolling their eyes. Questions that arise from interaction with the forecast discussions are likelier to be ones that others are wondering about.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

A few years ago, we tried a "new member" system wherein new members initially would be given posting privileges in only a limited part of the forum, and expanded, or full, privileges would be given only after a probationary time period and given on a completely member-by-member basis based on posts in the "new member" subforum. For the first couple of weeks, this was fine, but it quickly became a significant burden for the moderators. I'm not sure most people realize the amount of work such a system involves; the moderators are volunteers, and, though the magnitude of work may not be particularly high, it does become progressively more burdensome with time. We've also done the "every applicant must write an essay" deal, and, though I think that worked relatively well, it was nonetheless quite subjective and, more importantly, a rather significant source of work for the admin would need to manually create each and every member profile as a result of a software limitation.

We also tried to have a more limited-member "advanced chaser" section on this board, but it was met with such massive outcry from a number of members that it was removed before we even got it off the ground. That particular time, we put in a lot of work to set aside a small part of the forum for the more experienced chasers in an effort to provide a quieter, more private setting. We had just finished setting up the membership approval guidelines for this subforum when it's existence was brought to a halt as a dozen or two regular members took extreme opposition to the *idea* of such a private subforum since, back in the print days, ST could be "read" by anyone who wanted to read it, and, in keeping with that theme, it was demanded that the online version of ST also be open for anyone to read and participate. Indeed, some were "offended" that they were not an "advanced" member, even though we had not yet released the guidelines and requirements for this subforum, and I'm not even sure we had notified everyone who was given initial posting privileges in "ST Core". Though you can try to be as objective about admission as you can, it's tough to determine who is and who is not in a particular group, whether that be our initial "advanced chaser" group or the currently-suggested chaser vs. non-chaser groups.

In the end, I've come to accept Stormtrack as it is. I've put in my effort to try to make sure it runs as smoothly and possible, and, though things may not always be problem-free, I think we still have the best forum on the internet for chasers to discuss weather- and chase-related events and news. My diminished posting in the past 18 months is not a function of my unwillingness to participate so much as it is my schedule getting busier with time (and leaving me less time to participate here). There are other forums out there that have a higher signal-to-noise ratio, for sure, but those also tend to be a little more stale and a lot more inactive than this board. Sure, Stormtrack isn't perfect, but I still find myself coming here a few times a day, and this is still my first stop when it comes to discussing chases, forecasts, etc.

 

[Tim Vasquez]

Jeff Snyder made some good points about how we've dealt with the problems in the past. The more I've thought about solutions for today, the more I realize we've been down this road already. Some of the proposals that have come up in this thread have been tried already, while others would create many more problems if actually implemented. So we're going to impose a small number of specific changes for the time being.

Many of the proposals that have come up deal with the question of two segments of our membership: armchair chasers (serious about meteorology, do not chase) and casual members (not serious about meteorology, and do not chase).

As far as the armchair chaser is concerned, they are fully welcome here because (1) we should not alienate our next generation of embryonic chasers, after all, we all started this way; (2) there's no reliable way to verify experience and chase credentials of those we don't know and I don't think any of us should be deciding whether someone has chased enough; (3) our purpose is to diffuse knowledge and provide a positive image for chasers; (4) some non-chasers know a fantastic amount about convective meteorology or are in research and forecast positions, particularly at CIMMS and NOAA; and (5) Stormtrack magazine was always receptive to armchair chasers, even publishing material by them.

As far as the casual member goes, I support their exclusion as we're all invested to one degree or another in the scientific method, and those coming here to share anecdotes about tornado dreams or ask about what Gary England said on the teevee do not demonstrate any real interest in meteorology, only in its effects. Retroactively banning casual members, though, is going to get us into hot water. It's too easy to wrongly assume someone is in the casual member group and I certainly don't feel competent enough to decide who's a casual member and who's an armchair chaser. For this reason I do not want us instigating a witch hunt. Fortunately most casual members here have gotten bored and move on. But if a casual member does not belong here and you feel you're reaching the end of your rope, flag their posts or try to address the issue *privately* with one of us and we'll start taking a closer look. It won't be the first time we've dropped someone who definitely doesn't belong.

Now how to address the noise and fragmentation problems: I gave very serious consideration to a class-based system but this would be a sledgehammer approach which in the past has generated tremendous controversy. I also gave consideration to procedural and technical proposals that some of you have mentioned (like approval boards for Target Area) but they invariably increase the complexity of the board, create more rules, and/or create a lot of busy work that I'm skeptical we can commit to. I really want to avoid this.

What we will do is this, at least to start:

1. We will go ahead and change the Beginner Forum to "Educational Forum". Newcomers will be strongly encouraged to post here. Experienced users will be discouraged from posting here unless they are directly responding to questions and demonstrate a high standard of courtesy. We'll evaluate and see if further moderation controls are needed.

2. "Advanced" forum will be changed back to "Weather and Chasing". We will put a note on there that newcomers should read the FAQ and direct basic questions to the educational forum.

3. We will create a FAQ list and place it in the Educational forum. I believe we did this a couple of years ago around 2005-2006 but this time we'll do it all on one page instead of in multiple posts. It will be sticked at the top of that forum.

4. To solve the problems with noise in Target Area we will restrict posting privileges to those with an account age of 1 year or more and a post history of 25 posts or more. We will grant exceptions for those who petition us but it must show unquestionable meteorology or chasing experience (NOAA and CFDG people will be automatically approved). This should eliminate casual members altogether. People who don't meet the cut are free to discuss the event in Educational Forum.

5. Moderators will keep an eye out in Target Area for users with significant, repeated violations of Target Area rules. These individuals will lose Target Area post privileges for at least 30 days.

6. Bar & Grill is going to be changed into a subscribe-only forum. Right now we have no intention of getting rid of it as Stormtrack is divided between those who want a professional no-nonsense forum as well as users who want a socially-networked chase community. You will have to subscribe to it in your user control panel to see it. This approach privatizes the forum and ensures that people are only viewing it by voluntarily and by making an effort to subscribe to it. We will also eliminate the topic prohibitions and put all content under the blanket of our standards of conduct. Penalties there will strengthened to include 30-day suspensions from Bar & Grill without warning for ad hominem attacks, flame wars, and trolling/flamebaiting.

7. We will add one or two questions to the new user application as a barrier to those not serious about meteorology. The questions will be random, questions will not be easily Googled, and they will be synthesis questions that will be straightforward for those who have done some minimal self study but will not be easy for those whose only weather exposure is Bill Keneely and Storm Stories.

That said, I ask that we all recognize the difference between casual members and armchair chasers. If nothing else, I expect courtesy for the former and respect for the latter because if we want to see ourselves as veterans and professionals, we need to conduct ourselves with a sense of integrity and tolerance, same as Dave Hoadley would have done it. We also don't need any more drama than we've had already and there's never going to be anything we can do to get the forum structured to everyone's satisfaction. With quality being our goal I do think the solutions above are a good start and I think over the coming months they'll be quite effective in solving some of the problems we've had.

Tim

 

[Bob Hartig]

EDIT: Oops. True to form, I hit the post button long after I started writing, and in the meantime, Tim has leaned in. If any of the following is still relevant, great; if not, just ignore it.
--------------

It has been a long time since I applied for membership, which back then required my writing an essay, so I don't know what the process presently involves. But I want to point out that the present positive, solutions-oriented discussion arose out of some pretty ugly and divisive flame wars based on heated feelings about how things oughta be.

So I'm proposing two things:

1. The membership process should mandate that every applicant read and electronically sign an agreement to the essential, general rules of conduct on this private forum. This would include an understanding that the rules apply uniformly to every member. No exceptions. The rules can be changed, but the ones in effect must be agreed to (even if not agreed with) and adhered to.

2. A practical means--possibly even a formal means--could be established for individuals who have been penalized for rules violations to challenge the moderator's decision privately rather than create a public issue that easily deteriorates into incendiary remarks, bickering, and other unproductive behavior.

 

[Jason Foster]

Tim V.

Looks like good, well thought out solutions and continuous refinement to the Stormtrack Forum.

I think the key points of courtesy and respect are on the mark, and I'll add patience, as these systems and changes will take time to see the difference, and for us to feel better about the place we post in.

It is good to see you have patience in dealing with all the hot air and rantings of the membership. It must be tough, really tough at times, but shows a good deal of commitment you have for the the Stormtrack name, I'm sure David H. and Tim M. are happy to see that commitment.

 

[Robert Dewey]

I like what Tim V is proposing.