Unexplained radar returns over Huntsville AL/Redstone Arsenal on 6/4/13

A quick YouTube search for "cottage cheese clouds" will net a number of entertaining videos wherein we learn that what we here in this forum might THINK we know as "altocumulus" clouds where never around before HAARP was built, whether we saw them before that time or not.
 
Exactly. Again, that was the basis of my assessment last evening. Winds from the surface through the mid levels were generally well under ten knots and convective thermals could have easily taken chaff particles up and through 10k feet in the regime. Dispersal would have been fairly random depending on convective motion in light winds.

Nope... Slices reveal that the plume went from the surface to 10,000 feet in under 10 minutes, then continued up to 13,000ft. UAH vertical radar shows no support for upward motion like that!
 
Well then I'll go again with "random atmospheric oddity".

It must be a coincidence that actual fiberglass chaff has been found in area grass.
 
It must be a coincidence that actual fiberglass chaff has been found in area grass.

Right. Given that's been confirmed, as well as the point of origin, I don't think I'd dismiss chaff. I suppose it could be something else, but that would make for quite a coincidence.
 
Nope... Slices reveal that the plume went from the surface to 10,000 feet in under 10 minutes, then continued up to 13,000ft. UAH vertical radar shows no support for upward motion like that!

Nope? You seem the outlier from the consensus among most today.

http://blog.al.com/breaking/2013/06/scientists_say_radar_blob_over.html

So, what's your explanation? There's physical proof of chaff in the area today.

http://www.waaytv.com/news/local/ua...cle_5712699c-ce15-11e2-ba9d-0019bb30f31a.html

http://www.waff.com/story/22510645/uah-radar-reflectivity-caused-by-cha

I'd be interested in seeing the UAH data. Is it available online?
 
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The problem is - how did it get there? It went from the surface up to 10,000ft within minutes and them up to 13,000 feet shortly after. Chaff falls down :) Plus there were no chaff streaks, this plumed upwards. And about two hours in another plume launched up.

All the while no jets were seen in the area. Just a brief helo overpass.

What indication is there that it started at the surface? With the distance from KHTX roughly 30nm to the area of interest, at .5 degree you'd end up with a center beam height of 2200' and a beam width of almost 3000 feet. So the chaff could have been anywhere from 700' agl to 3700' agl, roughly (ignoring terrain and curvature.)

I know you are saying you're basing this off the UAH vertical radar, but even Dr. Knupp and the UAH Severe Weather and Radar Research Group has determined it was chaff. I'd certainly be interested in seeing the UAH data.

And from personal experience, I can assure you that pretty much all military aircraft, fixed wing and rotary, can and occasionally do carry and employ chaff.
 
What indication is there that it started at the surface? With the distance from KHTX roughly 30nm to the area of interest, at .5 degree you'd end up with a center beam height of 2200' and a beam width of almost 3000 feet. So the chaff could have been anywhere from 700' agl to 3700' agl, roughly (ignoring terrain and curvature.)

Some speculation reported by Lee Roop on al.com:

on June 05, 2013 at 1:50 PM, updated June 05, 2013 at 3:27 PM




12877820-large.jpg
View full sizeThis strange radar blob over Huntsville's Redstone Arsenal fueled speculation on the Internet Tuesday night, June 5, but its cause remained a mystery Wednesday.


HUNTSVILLE, Alabama - Whatever Tuesday's Redstone radar blob was, it was unlike anything most professional radar watchers have ever seen. Speculation has centered on secret defense testing at Redstone Arsenal, and the University of Alabama in Huntsville has said it has found feathery pieces of fiberglass near the area. All this has has led Huntsville scientists to be discrete in their public speculation so far in deference to national security. But they are shedding more light on an event that exploded on radar like a thunderstorm, spread nearly 10 miles wide and a mile high, and lasted for nine hours - all while being virtually invisible to the naked eye.
Matt Havin and Dr. Michael Lawton, meteorologists at Huntsville's Baron Services Inc., watched the blob on multiple radars at their operations center in Cummings Research Park. Company founder Bob Baron, a former television meteorologist, invented and developed the first tornado-tracking technology for television forecasters, and his company works with TV stations and companies nationwide. In an interview Wednesday about the blob, Havin first listed "what we know it's not"


1. A thunderstorm or rain. There was no rain in the area.
2. Bats, birds or insects. "Bats or birds tend to have a (radar) signature that expands rapidly," Havin said. "We've seen signatures like this with insects before, but usually it's not this size or this duration."
3. The 1,000 ladybugs released by the Huntsville Botanical Garden to fight aphids.
4. Typical small fragments of military chaff (radar countermeasures). Generally, Havin said, military chaff is carried by upper-level winds in bands. "Typically chaff signatures are released by aircraft," Lawton said. "That's why they have a long, sort of elongated signature. This did not look like that."
5. Dust. "It wasn't that," Havin said, "otherwise we'd see signatures like that in the Plains all the time at harvest time, and we don't."
7. Smoke. "Out of any of the potential causes," Havin said, "smoke is what this most closely looks like if it wasn't going to be a severe thunderstorm. But to have a signature of this size and strength, you'd have to go from nothing to an extreme forest fire almost instantaneously. And you'd see a lot of smoke, which we did not."
6-8. Radiation, jamming (which has an on-off signature), or a bad Huntsville Utilities substation.


Here's what the two meteorlogists can say about "whatever it was," in Havin's words.


1. It was suspended in the air for about nine hours, started on the north side of Redstone Arsenal just after 1:30 p.m. and ended around 11 p.m. (CDT). "That's a very long time for something to be hanging around," Havin said.
2. All the radar signatures "had to occur between the surface of the ground and about 5,500 feet above the ground above Redstone Arsenal."
3. It was greater than 8-10 miles in diameter for "most of the duration."
4. "It was pluming." The source was apparently sending up either multiple or almost continual releases of "whatever it was from very low elevation or from the ground. It shot up from the surface or a very low level," Havin said.

5. It showed up on different radar frequencies, including the S-band radar used by the National Weather Service and the C-band radar used by one local TV station.
Neither Havin nor Lawton, a Phd research meteorologist, has ever seen anything like this on radar. But despite that, what did people at Baron Services see when they went outside Tuesday to look? "It wasn't anything obvious," Havin said.
 
It must be a coincidence that actual fiberglass chaff has been found in area grass.

No, I'm sure that was what happened. Just unsure how it went up.

Curious if it could be seen from KOHX?
I think it was out of their tdwr's range

It was visible from GWX, I don't remember OHX. Was not from BMX.

What indication is there that it started at the surface?

Based on the look of the plume at onset. But even if it didn't start there, it's still getting a 1000fpm updraft for ~10 minutes on a fair weather day, with a few weak puffy cu around 6000ft. If the plume stopped at that level, I'd have a little more faith in the natural lift.

And from personal experience, I can assure you that pretty much all military aircraft, fixed wing and rotary, can and occasionally do carry and employ chaff.

Understood, but this has never happened in the career of HTX :) From what UAH is saying, this is a new kind of chaff. My only question is what method put it that high in the atmosphere without any known flying machine in the area.
 
Based on the look of the plume at onset. But even if it didn't start there, it's still getting a 1000fpm updraft for ~10 minutes on a fair weather day, with a few weak puffy cu around 6000ft. If the plume stopped at that level, I'd have a little more faith in the natural lift.

UAH seems to be of the impression that it lifted to around 6000ft.

However they did it, the tactical possibilities of a chaff that can cover a ten-mile area and linger for hours are fun to think about. It's a really neat new toy!
 
I saw that too and not quite sure how they came up with that number... It showed up on the 3.6* tilt which cuts in half at 13K. It was very evident on 2.5* which is 10K.

I think we'll need to leave the explanation of "how" to the mysteries of government ingenuity :)
 
Chaff that could stay aloft for that duration of time could be a double edged sword in a tactical sense, but strategically it would make an excellent defense measure against radar guided missiles. I'd be interested to see what the dispersion signature would look like with a modest atmospheric flow.

Whatever the motive for release (intentional or accidental), I would doubt that it's anything super-duper, double top secret or it wouldn't have been released in an area where samples could be retrieved by civilians.

Still intriguing though. Once my business travels are over next week I may download and review the KHTX level II data.
 
On a whim I took a quick look at NOTAMs issued from Huntsville's airport. Nothing there.


I checked KHUA (Redstone Arsenal):


NASA AERO-M UAS OPS R2104A (C) SFC - 3,000 5 JUN - 1200-1800 7 JUN - 1200-1800. 05 JUN 12:00 2013 UNTIL 07 JUN 18:00 2013


SHADOW UAS OPS SFC - 10,000 R2104A - (W,C,E,S) R2104C - (N,S,E) DAILY 1245-2030. 03 JUN 12:45 2013 UNTIL 07 JUN 20:30 2013.


RAVEN UAS OPS SFC-3,000 R2104A (W,C,E) R2104C (N,S,E) 05 JUN 1600-2400


They had airspace over them up to 10,000feet for three different types of UAV ops that day... Since those travel at < 100mph, versus the typical chaff streak we see from 500+mph jets, I feel pretty safe with that being the most likely cause.
 
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