Ignorance of few affect the many

[wsanders]

As far as I could tell from the video, there were three or four other vehicles right next to the one that suffered the broken window, so I wouldn't be so hasty as to point the finger at any one tour operator in particular.

If I were shopping for a tour I would be much more concerned about finding one with a good *overall* safety record considering the amount of driving done, a cap on the number of hours driven by crew per day, spotlessly maintained vehicles, etc. Just my 2c.

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

Hmmm...Well, the jury may never really be in on this.

Since I am not affiliated with any tour company and only represent my view on this situation - here are my thoughts:

If anyone would care to look up the forecast thread for 5/10/10 on STORMTRACK, the reoccurring theme was that storm motion will be very fast. A few even mentioned in that thread that chaser convergence may actually create a condition where many chasers could become victims due to the inability to move out of the storm's path quickly enough and that traffic conditions may exacerbate this further.

"...if the storm direction should shift for any reason" or something to that effect as I recall.

The fact that some did receive minor injuries looking back - seems to be kind in comparison. There was less convergence there than anticipated; would it have been worse if there was? I'm not treating this lightly - mind you - just trying to keep it all in perspective. We all knew the dangers that were going to be there. Including chasing tours.

I was in Wichita at the time; not in Wakita - so I can only know what happened from the reports made. In the video, I saw 'sister' tornadoes or a multi-vortex sweeping across the ground and shifting directions in a radical fashion. From what I can tell from the video and reports, I can only speculate that debris caused the glass to shatter and the tourist got injured. Under the circumstances, it could have been the vehicle in front of the tour van that should have gotten the worst of it. Had the driver of the van moved closer as was suggested, they may have not caught anything at all. This is all speculation, because the chances of getting hit by any debris may have been elevated due to the proximity of the tubes - of course.

They all sign waivers before they even get on the tours, and there is insurance before the tour company can go anywhere. Or they are liable for personal injury suits and could never continue to do so if injuries were a commonplace occurrence. This isn't the log ride at an amusement park that can assure the riders of getting drenched.

There was a vehicle in front of the tour van - that was closer to the tube itself. Nothing happened to them. Do we know the specific reason that the window got blown out in the van? Only guesses and speculation - so far. A rock, a board, a branch. But nothing definitive. It really doesn't matter once it happens.

What is the 'safe distance' of a tornado of unknown wind speed and a shifting direction? A 1/4 or 1/2 mile? Debris can theoretically be thrown farther than that and can land or hit anything. Did anyone take into consider that - although unfortunate and not wanting to see anything like this ever happen - that it may have been a circumstance of chance and not poor judgment that is ultimately to blame here? No tour company want or needs such a reputation. I can only think that the vehicle that was closer to the tube was spared the incident and the tour van was just in the wrong place and right time. From what I can see, it looks like the unpredictability of the storm itself and the inability of the roads available to compensate are the proximate cause. It could have been any other chaser on that road - but it was the tour van that caught it.

Mind you - this is JUST AN OBSERVATION of what I can see from what I have read and seen in the video. In other words - no brick throwing please! Or a rock, or branch, or...

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

There was a vehicle in front of the tour van - that was closer to the tube itself. Nothing happened to them. Do we know the specific reason that the window got blown out in the van? Only guesses and speculation - so far. A rock, a board, a branch. But nothing definitive. It really doesn't matter once it happens.

The tube/s in the video are the satellite tornado going around the front of the growing bowl. The bowl/tornado was right above them. It's tough to blame chasers if one is driving under a bowl and has brakes in their vehicle. Especially considering you stop and wala tornado is doing the work for you, flying down the highway at 55mph.

That TWC video apparently shows the action from a lead vehicle, it then quickly goes back to the one that gets hit and shows the same sequence of events. If you watch closely on the first segment you can see those two vorticies go across the road and if you watch, you can see a dusty debris whirl holding put right on the road behind those(what was hitting them). Lucky that is all that was deciding to "plant itself" right then. Could have easily been a lot more substantial in a big big hurry.

 

[Adam Lucio]

What is the 'safe distance' of a tornado of unknown wind speed and a shifting direction? A 1/4 or 1/2 mile? Debris can theoretically be thrown farther than that and can land or hit anything. Did anyone take into consider that - although unfortunate and not wanting to see anything like this ever happen - that it may have been a circumstance of chance and not poor judgment that is ultimately to blame here? No tour company want or needs such a reputation. I can only think that the vehicle that was closer to the tube was spared the incident and the tour van was just in the wrong place and right time. From what I can see, it looks like the unpredictability of the storm itself and the inability of the roads available to compensate are the proximate cause. It could have been any other chaser on that road - but it was the tour van that caught it.

The whole point is not being there in the first place. There is plenty of chaser video taken from miles away of that tornado. For a tour the priority should be getting their guests a VIEW. Tour guests don't have as high standards as chasers, they are just happy to SEE the tornado. They could have easily stayed a mile or 2 back and probably caught a glimpse of the tornado.

You don't need to be right next to the tornado in order to see it. If chasers want to get up close and personal and risk everything then that is their right to do so...hell even if a tour wants to do that fine whatever I'm not going to tell them what they can and can't do...but when they blame OTHER chasers when something happens is flat out BS.

There is nothing to speculate, the video shows it all. People are "man enough" to get next to the tornado but not man enough to take the heat that follows they'd rather blame everyone else. To me that spells coward.

 

[Matt Hunt]

I personally wear a football uniform. It might look ridiculous but it makes me feel better. Not sure what purpose the cleats serve yet but I have some ideas.

IMO tour passengers should wear nothing less than one of these.

This post exhibits exactly why nobody would wear any kind of protective gear. You gotta look "cool" while you're out chasing, right? Don't want other chasers to make fun of you! Who cares if there could be softball size hail, flying debris, and 100 mph RFD in addition to the tornado you want to drive right into, looking cool is WAY more important! Do you lift weights? Leave the shirt at home! And stand outside your vehicle flexing as the tornado approaches!

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

This post exhibits exactly why nobody would wear any kind of protective gear. You gotta look "cool" while you're out chasing, right? Don't want other chasers to make fun of you! Who cares if there could be softball size hail, flying debris, and 100 mph RFD in addition to the tornado you want to drive right into, looking cool is WAY more important! Do you lift weights? Leave the shirt at home! And stand outside your vehicle flexing as the tornado approaches!

I would totally wear that balloon outfit. Perhaps get it embroidered with EF10 on one side and a big S on the other side.

Seriously though, I don't know about helmets, but after the last chase I sure started thinking harder about taking some pillows with or something. Big blanket? I kept thinking, boy it would really really suck to have these bowling ball stones coming through with more of their buddies along for the ride. Thought, yeah you could protect your head easy enough with your hands and arms, at least until they were broken by the stones(mine for sure given so small). It really could get really bad and it would be nice to have something close by for that time. I was just having some humor at what that could be. I think 2 pillows might be enough. Stick an arm up inside the inside of each then cover sides up to head.

 

[Paul Redmond]

I remember hearing of a chaser who had is car totaled due to large hail last spring in north central texas near the junction of I20 and 281. As in every window being smashed. I also remember a few well respected veteren chasers suffering the same fate. My very humble suggestion is not to throw ice balls and other peoples glass houses.

Lets face it large ice bombs are a threat we all face at some time or another.

 

[John Farley]

I would totally wear that balloon outfit. Perhaps get it embroidered with EF10 on one side and a big S on the other side.

Seriously though, I don't know about helmets, but after the last chase I sure started thinking harder about taking some pillows with or something. Big blanket? I kept thinking, boy it would really really suck to have these bowling ball stones coming through with more of their buddies along for the ride. Thought, yeah you could protect your head easy enough with your hands and arms, at least until they were broken by the stones(mine for sure given so small). It really could get really bad and it would be nice to have something close by for that time. I was just having some humor at what that could be. I think 2 pillows might be enough. Stick an arm up inside the inside of each then cover sides up to head.

I wonder of my snow outfit would work for hail and tornadoes

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

I remember hearing of a chaser who had is car totaled due to large hail last spring in north central texas near the junction of I20 and 281. As in every window being smashed. I also remember a few well respected veteren chasers suffering the same fate. My very humble suggestion is not to throw ice balls and other peoples glass houses.

Lets face it large ice bombs are a threat we all face at some time or another.

And many of us out there *want* to experience that stuff. Part of me doesn't get why anyone wouldn't want to experience some of that(should have a car one doesn't care for lol). Missing later parts of that chase is my only real fear.

Folks shouldn't always jump to the conclusion folks getting cored screwed up, as in surely many cases that's not the case at all. I put myself in the "bad place" often and am just having a damned hard time busting windows out of it.

Of course I realize this isn't the majority of those chasing out there thought process. I just think this way, "there's no core too bad". Even if at the time it ends up scaring the bejusus out of me. Thought Wakita storm was about to do that when I saw those first monsters, but then she was just a big fat let down.

 

[Chris C Sanner]

Exactly...For this reason, and the fact that (like the one linked) a larger and larger percentage of the articles now are going to make the chaser look like a fool, I personally have learned to avoid newspapers and interviews all together, of course I'd consider it if there's enough loot on the table to make it worth my trouble (not likely in today's world). IMO all these articles (while obviously not what I want to hear) are making very valid points; without a doubt in my mind, chasers have got to the point where as a *collective* they're far more hassle to a region than they are worth (of course that's excluding the economic gain 1000+ people bring). I'll continue to be part of the problem, but you won't find me disputing articles that merely make some very valid points...You don't have to watch too many chaser videos on youtube before the whole "help the public, give more warning" excuse looses it's credibility, there are still a a lot of chasers out there doing things the right way and with the right priorities, but they're being WAY overshadowed now...

I agree that the premise that a lot of chasers throw out there (we are out there for the public) is losing ground fast. It's really a bad joke in a lot of ways, since you don't need 100 storm chasers on a storm to relay information on what it's doing to the people that need to know.

And for people who think the people who can make decisions (ie legislate) aren't paying attention: you are wrong. I have talked with a couple of lawmakers in Oklahoma just this week who are definitely open to the idea of taking up a measure to place some regulations on chasing, especially on tour companies. Their thought process is actually quite simple (and valid): the state regulates hunting (a hobby), they regulate volunteer firefighting (a public service), but they don't regulate storm chasing. In the same way for tour companies, they provide a service which places it's clients in much more danger than many other types of businesses. The thought process is really there is no valid reason requirements on licensing and for carrying adequate insurance policies aren't in place...if only to keep unqualified amateurs from starting tour companies as they look for a quick buck.

I'm not saying there will be legislation, but to say it's impossible to legislate against storm chasing is to ignore the facts and political realities. It's coming sooner than people think, and it might not take many more incidents like this for a cash strapped state to start looking for easy to enforce new sources of revenue.

 

[rdale]

Their thought process is actually quite simple (and valid): the state regulates hunting (a hobby), they regulate volunteer firefighting (a public service)

Once you actually and work on the details - you realize it's not as simple as you think. If you are carrying a gun in an open field and lie down to shoot something - you are hunting and will be punished if you don't have a license. End of story.

If you walk into a fire station and jump on the fire truck, you will be booted off unless you are a trained firefighter.

What law can be enacted that prevents people from driving on the roads? Would you position police cars on a roving 2-mile blockade, stopping all vans to see if any have stormchasers inside? Again - it sounds all scary in theory, but when you try to match that purpose with reality it all falls apart. I'd love to hear your ideas though.

Next thing you know - some legislature will try to ban texting while driving. What idiot believes that would 1) be enforced and 2) do any good?

 

[Chris C Sanner]

Once you actually and work on the details - you realize it's not as simple as you think. If you are carrying a gun in an open field and lie down to shoot something - you are hunting and will be punished if you don't have a license. End of story.

If you walk into a fire station and jump on the fire truck, you will be booted off unless you are a trained firefighter.

What law can be enacted that prevents people from driving on the roads? Would you position police cars on a roving 2-mile blockade, stopping all vans to see if any have stormchasers inside? Again - it sounds all scary in theory, but when you try to match that purpose with reality it all falls apart. I'd love to hear your ideas though.

Next thing you know - some legislature will try to ban texting while driving. What idiot believes that would 1) be enforced and 2) do any good?

The reality is quite simple -- if a police officer sees someone near a storm breaking the law and then has reasonable suspicion that the person is a storm chaser then they can ask for a license. It's not unlike the amended Arizona Immigration Law and other laws including those that control hunting. It wouldn't be as hard as you imagine to enforce and would leave the decision entirely in the officers discretion. You don't have to ban driving on roads to police storm chasing...the licensing process as well as the threat of being stopped and caught without a license would be enough to get the job done in most instances to accomplish the goals of the law, especially if relatively expensive fines were levied against the people who were caught doing it. These same arguments have been made over history about a variety of issues and the result is the same: enforcement isn't nearly as complicated as people think even though some do find really creative ways to work around them.

However, that's the small portion of this. In reality, I think the bigger and more relevant piece of info (and something I'm sure Lanny and other great tour operators personally fear) is the inevitable regulation of tour companies. IMHO (and unfortunately for the stand up operators of tour companies), it's almost guaranteed something is introduced at some point to regulate a dangerous business model...especially given the budget woes in the State of Oklahoma. For the rest of the chasing world at large, we may be safe....or we may not. But to say you can't enforce it is simply not true.

 

[Joey Ketcham]

Storm chasing is never going to be regulated, period. I don't know why people keep bringing up the idea of it being regulated, it won't happen. It would be impossible to enforce, how would they prove that I am storm chasing? Because I'm driving within the vicinity of a storm? That's not a crime. Because I have a laptop with internet access? I work in IT, wherever I go I have my laptop and internet connection so if something happens at work, I can VPN into work to take care of things. Because I have a ham radio? Again, not a crime.

If you break the law and you are caught, then you will be fined for that violation. But you aren't going to be punished just for the act of storm chasing.

 

[Chris C Sanner]

Storm chasing is never going to be regulated, period. I don't know why people keep bringing up the idea of it being regulated, it won't happen. It would be impossible to enforce, how would they prove that I am storm chasing? Because I'm driving within the vicinity of a storm? That's not a crime. Because I have a laptop with internet access? I work in IT, wherever I go I have my laptop and internet connection so if something happens at work, I can VPN into work to take care of things. Because I have a ham radio? Again, not a crime.

If you break the law and you are caught, then you will be fined for that violation. But you aren't going to be punished just for the act of storm chasing.

Don't be so sure. Especially when it comes to tour companies, regulation would be relatively easy. As far as regulating individual chasers, it's a bit more difficult but you don't have to catch everyone to have the law have the desired effect. How many people are caught speeding that actually do? It's a small percentage but speed limits tend to keep most people in check. Deterrence works, but the actual degree is definitely a point of academic contention.

Either way, it's rehashing an old topic, I only brought it up because I know it's being discussed and I wouldn't be surprised to see a bill sooner or later (probably sooner) because Oklahoma's budget issues are quite dire and they are looking for any little way to increase revenue. It seems highly topical since Lanny spoke of this being a slippery slope when it comes to tour companies and he's definitely right: this incident will have real world implications when it comes to the regulation of that business. Every little bit of revenue counts and could save several state jobs...which adds up over time. You guys can debate the merits of enforcement, but it wouldn't be that hard to do, especially when it comes to commercial tour operations.

 

[Brandon Goforth]

Once you actually and work on the details - you realize it's not as simple as you think. If you are carrying a gun in an open field and lie down to shoot something - you are hunting and will be punished if you don't have a license. End of story.

If you walk into a fire station and jump on the fire truck, you will be booted off unless you are a trained firefighter.

What law can be enacted that prevents people from driving on the roads? Would you position police cars on a roving 2-mile blockade, stopping all vans to see if any have stormchasers inside? Again - it sounds all scary in theory, but when you try to match that purpose with reality it all falls apart. I'd love to hear your ideas though.

Next thing you know - some legislature will try to ban texting while driving. What idiot believes that would 1) be enforced and 2) do any good?

Well, if you run up on a parked vehicle with stickers, lights, and antennas galore, and a tripod in the middle of the road pointed at a storm...I think that's pretty obvious... In fact, anyone that chases often realizes it's actually very obvious to spot "storm chasers".

But yeah, Chris is right, it can be enforced quite easily. It would be like handing out speeding tickets...of course not everyone speeding is going to get a ticket, and even when a cop sees you doing it, they won't always pull you over...BUT, it will give them the tools necessary to do it as they feel needed. If you think there aren't more than a few cops out there dying to bust storm chasers, even with a tornadic storm in their area, you're crazy. In fact, I've personally seen it several times. Not to mention that it would bring more money into the state.