Ignorance of few affect the many

[Rob H]

I wasn't on this tornado we were farther east, but I have seen several different angles, and I`m curious about one thing. Were there 2 separate tornadoes on this storm at one point, or was there a main multi vortex tornado with a satellite? It seems like a couple of the videos I saw where people got hit or near hit they were fixed on the multi vortex and wasn't aware of the second / satellite tornado... Not that that justifies their ignorance.

That whole stretch of road had tornadoes trying to form in multiple places - most people just focused on the big one. The one satellite/sister to the multi vortex was easy to see, but there were spinups on both sides of the road that were barely visible. It also formed really quick and on top of a tree line. It doesn't surprise me that people on that road took damage, what surprises me is that more people *didn't* take damage.

Our vehicle made a bad decision going down Hwy 11 - I'm openly admitting it. We didn't do anything that caused other chasers to be in harm's way, and we didn't take any damage - but fights broke out in our group and it was really stupid to be under the meso like that. At least we didn't bring a tour of people in there though. We made the dumb mistake as a group and accepted the consequences.

Lanny, I think you answered your own question. This is impacting your business, but most of us don't chase for money so it's not "hitting us where it hurts" so to say. I've accepted the risk that a close encounter could lead to broken glass but I don't really have to worry about insurance, liability, revenue, etc. because of my choices. I'm most concerned with recognizing the mistakes our group made and correcting them. You and your fellow tour operators have a whole other concern. It upsets me that people were hurt, but this probably won't affect me like it will you and your business. I'm always glad to hear when tour operators value safety over thrill. Hopefully this incident was an isolated one that people learn from.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, were they actually hit by a tornado or was that RFD?

Does it matter if their windows were blown out and people were hurt? We got hit by something too, after the multi vortex passed/organized/lifted/whatever. We're not sure if it was a satellite, RFD, or the outer wall of the big tornado. Recorded wind speeds were 80mph+ for what we were in. At what point can you distinguish RFD from something else under a nasty meso like this, and how important is that distinction? I was under the impression that RFD can blow out windows and tip cars off the road and can approach EF-1 wind speeds.

 

[Lanny Dean]

Lanny, I think you answered your own question. This is impacting your business, but most of us don't chase for money so it's not "hitting us where it hurts" so to say. I've accepted the risk that a close encounter could lead to broken glass but I don't really have to worry about insurance, liability, revenue, etc. because of my choices. I'm most concerned with recognizing the mistakes our group made and correcting them. You and your fellow tour operators have a whole other concern. It upsets me that people were hurt, but this probably won't affect me like it will you and your business. I'm always glad to hear when tour operators value safety over thrill. Hopefully this incident was an isolated one that people learn from.

Robert, I agree with you 100%....I knew I answerd my own question, I think I was just trying to get a response and maybe vent a little. You are also correct in that it does not/will not impact "chasers" as a whole but obviously more so for the tour industry. It is a real shame that this took place and as I said in my original post I will be addressing this in my blog and will discuss this with all current guests as well as past guests. I
have saved several videos of the event to my hard drive and will no doubt make this an example of why people should not choose F/5 tours.
I would encourage ALL other tour companies to do the same.

Thanks for letting me rant.

 

[David Goines]

Robert, I think what Patrick is trying to say is that being hit by an actual tornado and being hit by an intense RFD is like apples and oranges when it comes to the media and also the damage they can produce.
I'm sure a large percentage of the chasers on here have been through and experienced very strong RFD as high winds are a bit harder to avoid than an actual tornado.
The video clearly shows a tornado ahead of the vehicle crossing the road when the window blew out. The question is, was there another tornado that formed and overcame the vehicle? Or was it an intense RFD that blew out the window?

I have two points to be considered with this video.
1. The camera operator pointed out a funnel "above them" and another tornado ahead of it that seems to be the one that crossed the road. I'm under the persuasion that the funnel above them must have had some ground circulation that ended up hitting the van even though the groups focus was on the other tornado as it had a complete condensation funnel to the ground. I think they should have watched more closely to that other rotation. But it also could have been RFD that hit the van to cause the window to bust. It's had to tell without seeing a wide shot of what actually happened...but I'm leaning towards the funnel above them did the damage.

2. Before the window busted, someone must have had a window open because everyone's hair was blowing before the window gave in. If that's the case, debris itself would cause just as great of a danger as a busted window. To me, if a tour group is that close to a tornado, they need to advise the tourist to keep the windows closed because of debris.
Also, I wonder if a window half way down (as the rear windows don't normally go all of the way down) would be more apt to bust in strong winds than a window fully up. The force on one half of the window would seem to bend the glass which would seem more likely than a window fully up.
I seem to remember during the Storm Chasers episode when RT's window busted it lasted through a majority of the high wind until the center of the vortex was over them and maybe it was the pressure (along with the wind) that busted his window. If the window was down half way, maybe strong winds from an RFD is the culprit.

Just a few thoughts of mine...take it for what it's worth.

In the end, I do agree that tour groups should be a bit more cautious during situations like May 10th considering storm speed and also the fact that multiple rotations were spotted under the meso causing danger to be in more directions than one.

David Goines

 

[Dave Kaplow]

Has it occurred to anyone that this incident may actually generate business for the tour company? There is a small but substantial subset of potential tornado tourists who want, or think they want, to get as close as possible to a tornado, people who will see the tape and say, "damn, wish that was me in that van!" Sadly, the current crop of chaser TV shows and the many "I'm in the tornado" videos available on YouTube leave the impression that such a direct hit is eminently doable and possibly even desirable.

A sad state of affairs, indeed.

 

[Patrick Martin]

That whole stretch of road had tornadoes trying to form in multiple places - most people just focused on the big one. The one satellite/sister to the multi vortex was easy to see, but there were spinups on both sides of the road that were barely visible. It also formed really quick and on top of a tree line. It doesn't surprise me that people on that road took damage, what surprises me is that more people *didn't* take damage.

That answered my question about what was going on storm wise. Since I was not chasing that day, I appreciate the first hand insight. Thanks Robert.

Robert, I think what Patrick is trying to say is that being hit by an actual tornado and being hit by an intense RFD is like apples and oranges when it comes to the media and also the damage they can produce.

Yes, that's a big part of it. And please don't get me wrong, I am in no way trying to downplay the situation. I am in complete agreement that guest safety has to be 1st and foremost on a tour.

 

[J Allen]

Here Here Lanny.

From the perspective of someone who chases himself, but has friends who want to go on tours at some stage something like this is very concerning.

Clearly the tour operators put their guests in harms way...surely they would realise as chasers that being under a rapidly-rotating mesocyclone in a multivortex environment is not only unpredicatable but just downright dangerous. Or perhaps they didnt realise, which would put them at further liability as not knowing what they are doing in that situation is a simple way to get killed. Add to this the very evident storm motion on the day and you had a cocktail waiting to happen...and this was made very clear on models and here...they had data, they had no excuse to negligently put their guests at risk. As others have said for a tour operator, they either should have been behind the event, or on one of the cross roads in a relatively safe location knowing the potential complications with convergence, fast moving and unpredictable tornadic behaviour.

To add my own little rant given the way the storm was behaving at the time, I have little doubt that far more than this tour operator put themselves at risk...the vehicles in this situation rushing blatantly towards the main tornado while others spun-up close to them is a disaster waiting to happen. Thanks to Reed Timmer and his ilk it seems to have become a hobby to put ones self at risk for the sake of a bit of petty cash and video...and perhaps this instance is an example of where it has made it into the tour industry? Clearly these tornadoes were chaseable from a safe location, the other members on this forum who failed to get hit but still got the shots were a testament to that sense and skill as chasers. What also concerns me is the behaviour of the mesocyclone at the time of these spinups plus the main tornado: immediately when you see a satellite tornado it should trigger warning bells that a tornado can form at any location under the mesocyclone and you shouldn't be under there....the speed of development on this day was definitely a contributing factor...but those who were caught were lucky that the entire meso didn't effectively descend and form a large tornado...or that the tornadoes that did form werent stronger. I live in Australia, and my mother stumbled accross and saw the video footage of that tornado and was utterly horrified (given I leave for the plains on Tuesday)....one for people clearly endangering themselves in what was a dangerous and unpredictable situation, and two for the idiots driving and overtaking to get closer to the main tornado. This doesn't do the chasing community any favours when behaviour like this is publically shown.

Regulation for the tour industry will come quickly if anyone looses their life or is seriously injured, it was fortunate that the tornado that struck was only relatively weak.

Lanny, from the perspective of my friends who want to go on tours, I do hope you make it very clear their reckless practice so that others will not be put in danger by this operator...when people come from Australia to view tornadoes they expect not to be put needlessly in the line of fire, and this is clearly an instance of them betraying that trust....a poor reflection on the whole industry.

 

[Michael Nicolaou]

The absolute worst thing about that video IMO is something that hasn't been mentioned yet. A person, who I assume is with the tour company given the laptop and resemblence to someone on the f5 homepage, is sitting in the passenger seat and makes the statement (and I quote), "We can probably move up if you want" at 1:31 on the TWC version.

The absolute lack of concern for so many things including a damaged vehicle, much less injured parties in the vehicle is appalling. Regardless of whether they were friends, chase buddies, or paying tour guests, the first responsibility of a chaser of any background is to provide immediate attention to potential medical concerns when they come across them.

 

[Joel Taylor]

After chasing very close to the action for over a decade, I can say that this is the first time I have ever seen this kind of chaser convergence underneath a meso. Usually, there is no one within 1/4 to a 1/2 mile of any type of circulation. In this case, I don't think it was the fast motion of the storm as much as it was its quick evolution.

This is my account. I haven't gone back and relooked at things too much, but this is my recolection of how everything unfolded. Before any tornadoes had occured, you could see on the mesonet that the storm was approaching a secondary boundary well east of the dryline where winds backed, dewpoints were a few degrees higher, and temps a few degrees cooler. Reed and I talked about this as we approached from the south and that as the storm crossed this boundary it would likely go nuts. I'm pretty sure that this is essentially what happened and why the storm suddenly went from just tornado warned to tornado crazy. Off the top of my head, the May 29th, 2004 southern KS storm and the Mulvane KS storms had similar evolutions so it happens frequently.

The first small and brief tornado that occured probably grabbed everybody's attention. It was just south of 11 and it was fairly obvious where it was going to be for several minutes. However, as people's attention were drawn to this, there was a much larger wall-cloud rapidly developing and becoming more organized directly above 11. Chasers paying attention to the funnel to the south may not have caught this. The first tornado wrapped around and into the new meso pretty much as it decided to go nuts. I'm pretty sure the Dominator took a direct hit from the first circulation as it was pulled inward and within seconds there were several more vortices including a couple of larger ones trying to become organized. The RFD was incredibly intense in itself and probably 80+ mph which will easily do a lot of damage.

Many of the chasers we saw were trying to blast east directly under the wall cloud out ahead of the storm when the safest option would've been to stay put or go back west. I believe that the rapid evolution, fast storm motions, and large size of the meso caught people off guard and that most of them never intended to be in that situation.

The following are my opinions:

1) If you are going to chase you better have a very good understanding of what is going on as well as the possible consequences. If you get yourself in trouble it is your fault and your fault only.

2) A chaser death is inevitable. It could easily be hydroplaning or lightning that gets someone before a tornado.

3) Chase Tours should stay back farther. The clients don't have a true understanding of storms plus it takes time to load/unload people in what is a high profile vehicle. The drivers/forecasters are responsible for every life in that vehicle. In the end, they will suffer the consequences if they are negligent in their chasing. Hopefully everyone from Monday's incident is 100% OK and everyone can take a lesson from what happened.

4) "Reed Timmer and his ilk...". Reed has spent a ton of money and time getting his education, building a tornado resistent vehicle, and adding radar and probes to get useful scientific information. He has earned any and all recognition that he gets. He can not control what other people decide to do and is not responsible for their bad decisions. People are in control of their own lives. Posts like yours get very old and wreak of jealousy and envy.

Joel Taylor

 

[Mike Bennett]

The absolute worst thing about that video IMO is something that hasn't been mentioned yet. A person, who I assume is with the tour company given the laptop and resemblence to someone on the f5 homepage, is sitting in the passenger seat and makes the statement (and I quote), "We can probably move up if you want" at 1:31 on the TWC version.

The absolute lack of concern for so many things including a damaged vehicle, much less injured parties in the vehicle is appalling. Regardless of whether they were friends, chase buddies, or paying tour guests, the first responsibility of a chaser of any background is to provide immediate attention to potential medical concerns when they come across them.

I noticed exactly the same thing Michael. And, another thing I have been seeing on past chases it seems, is the desire of more and more chasers who seem to think the only way to view a tornado is to be right up next to it. Have they forgotten that cameras have zoom features? Who are these chasers? Are they experienced or just ignorant about storm structure? If its the latter then it also makes them reckless IMO.

I really noticed it this past week, including the two chase days following the outbreak. A supercell is big enough that even with a huge chaser convergence on one cell there should be plenty of room for everyone to spread out, if everyone didn't think they must get directly under the meso to see the prize.

It's only a matter of time when someone gets killed and the national and local media will be all over it. Next will be law enforcement trying to find ways of shutting chasers down. Wait for it, because it will happen if the same course continues as it is or if it gets worse. My fear is, it is only going to get worse especially on highly advertised events such as the May 10, 2010 outbreak.

Am I off base here or does anyone else agree with me?

 

[Brandon Fesler]

Absolutely irresponsible. The shattered window is bad enough, and it certainly makes for easy pickings. But watching these fools trying to outrun the steam-o-matic, foot-on-the-floor vortices on 10 May was even worse for me. Talk about setting a bad example. This video has everything you SHOULD NEVER do... maybe with the exception of hanging off a bridge girder for good measure.

 

[Joey Ketcham]

Next will be law enforcement trying to find ways of shutting chasers down. Wait for it, because it will happen if the same course continues as it is or if it gets worse.

Am I off base here or does anyone else agree with me?

The only thing I disagree with which you said is what I quoted above. Storm chasing is never going to be regulated, it would be impossible to do so. I'm not sure why people keep stating such things. More people have died from skydiving, more people have died from mountain climbing, more people have died from race car driving. Yet none of those are regulated or outlawed, yet for some reason people seem to think storm chasing is the exception and will be regulated.

If people are breaking the law, they will be dealt with accordingly for the offense if and when caught. But to say storm chasing will be regulated, no it won't. That would be a highly impossible thing to do, especially when speaking of a hobby in which nobody has been killed while actively storm chasing unlike the other mentioned activities I mentioned earlier.

I will say this, those who operates a tour group could be regulated as they are acting as a business. I might be wrong, I will be the first to admit I know nothing about the business side of things so I could be completely wrong there. Lanny can correct me if I'm wrong on that. It certainly hurts the business when another tour group does something that causes injury to their guest and it's plastered on TWC, Mr. Dean already stated that his group lost a customer who was interested in being a guest on his tour but decided against it after this whole thing became public. It will certainly hurt those in the business of providing tours. I feel bad for Lanny and all the other responsible tour groups having to deal with losing potential customers because of the actions of an irresponsible tour group that decides to put themselves in a tornado which causes injuries to their guests.

 

[MatthewCarman]

Has anybody contacted F5 tours to get their side of the story? I noticed they have a contact link on their site.

As I said before putting peoples lives at risk just to see a tornado is wrong. These people were only injured from glass but it could have been a lot worse. I agree with just about everyone else here.

 

[Mike Bennett]

The only thing I disagree with which you said is what I quoted above. Storm chasing is never going to be regulated, it would be impossible to do so. I'm not sure why people keep stating such things. More people have died from skydiving, more people have died from mountain climbing, more people have died from race car driving. Yet none of those are regulated or outlawed, yet for some reason people seem to think storm chasing is the exception and will be regulated.

If people are breaking the law, they will be dealt with accordingly for the offense if and when caught. But to say storm chasing will be regulated, no it won't. That would be a highly impossible thing to do, especially when speaking of a hobby in which nobody has been killed while actively storm chasing unlike the other mentioned activities I mentioned earlier.

Hey Joey, respectfully, I didn't mean to imply anything about regulation or legislation. Law enforcement officers can certainly go gunning for chasers. They could become hard a$$es and stop and write citations for chasers stopping in roadways, impeding traffic, and speeding etc.....And I myself have been stopped for speeding while chasing (not recklessly speeding, but speeding none the less) and the officer cut me a break because of the service I was doing in terms of public warning. However, if the chase community develops a bad reputation or a reckless reputation that could certainly change.

I know of a fellow chaser with a local media who was issued a citation for illegally parking on a roadway. He pulled off the road and into the ditch but had both left tires still barely on the road. This occurred while chasing a storm with a tornado on the ground a few miles to the northwest. Because of the comments made by the state trooper it was obvious he didn't care for storm chasers. Now he may have been out of line for the comments he made but the citation was issued and had to be paid regardless. Anyway, its my opinion but it doesn't mean I am right.

 

[Joey Ketcham]

Hey Joey, respectfully, I didn't mean to imply anything about regulation or legislation. Law enforcement officers can certainly go gunning for chasers. They could become hard a$$es and stop and write citations for chasers stopping in roadways, impeding traffic, and speeding etc......

Oh certainly, I completely agree with that. I've heard horror stories from other chasers who were harassed by law enforcement. If they can find the smallest violation to harass you for, they will.

Fortunately, knock on wood, of all the years I've been chasing I have never had a bad encounter with law enforcement. Just this past Monday we were chasing out around the Sedan/Independence, KS area and we were parked along the highway waiting for an approaching storm. While sitting there a Kansas State Trooper pulled up behind us and approached the window, the guy was great. He was respectful and nice in every way possible, he was making sure we weren't broken down or anything, the next 10 minutes we sat there talking about the weather, what to expect and showed him radar and what was heading our way. It was an extremely positive encounter in every sense.

 

[J Allen]

4) "Reed Timmer and his ilk...". Reed has spent a ton of money and time getting his education, building a tornado resistent vehicle, and adding radar and probes to get useful scientific information. He has earned any and all recognition that he gets. He can not control what other people decide to do and is not responsible for their bad decisions. People are in control of their own lives. Posts like yours get very old and wreak of jealousy and envy.

Joel Taylor

My Apologies Joel. I did not mean to seem to be bashing Reed or acting jealously but rather I was using it to point out my concern the effect it has had on peoples perception/actions...

Personally I have no problem with you, Reed and whoever else placing yourselves in that situation in the vehicles you have, you clearly know what you are doing (well in most cases..except when the weather decides it has other ideas lol), and are well prepared for it...as was shown by the lack of damage to your vehicle. Yes he has gone out of his way to achieve alot (and I actually have a comprehension of what it has cost him, I think it is admirable that he has now made the effort to protect himself and prevent the need to be rescued in all but the worst situation...indeed he is a great example of dedication) and continues to provide valuable material...but unfortunately a result of people actually trying to actively intercept tornadoes has triggered an almost "arms race" if you will. Because you guys do get so close, you get the sort of video and media which the news stations desire if they choose to run them...in turn others think...well wow...If reed does that and gets that close then to get my footage...At the same time when they seen someone like Reed moving in towards the tornado they also percieve that it is somehow ok for them to do them same, despite not being prepared or equipped for the same.

So you cannot claim yourselves to be blameless as your actions have likely contributed, its just unfortunate that it comes down to people imitation...and unfortunately I don't think there is anything anyone can do about it now that it has begun. Still keep up doing what you are doing.

Once again I apologise for making it sound jealous etc...I really do respect what you, Reed et al. do (In fact, I just don't have the balls to actually try to get inside a tornado)...its more the implications for chasing as a whole that concern me. If I happen to see you while on the plains (Side rant...3 days woot) I will ensure I buy yourself and Reed a beer, as you deserve it.

Anyway, that was distinctly off topic and just trying to clear the air, but back to the main point:
I completely agree with your thoughts on the tours, and the chaser death. Its a sad conclusion, but I agree...Inevitable.