To all of my fellow chasers... please read.

[John Mullen]

your statement trying to tell people that they shouldn't be out chasing period, unless you're experienced....

Yet again, what I said was that the plains is no place for the "inexperienced, uneducated and misinformed individual" (in the OP). Go read my second post if you have to.

My reasoning is simple. If you don't know what you're doing (uneducated), and you've never done it before (inexperienced), then you do not need to be chasing. How anyone can say that is "wrong" is beyond me.

You misquoted me a few different times but I'll let it slide. But I'm tired of having to explain, reexplain and reexplain the same sentence time and time again.

actually telling amateurs or non "old-school" weather forecasters that they can't come out....

Let me quote what I said again....

The way I see it, if you don't know how to forecast and chase the old school way (think Howie Bluestein, back in the 80's. Pay-phones, maps, and a few plots from that morning. That's it. And he was very sucessful), you should not be out in the plains.

Again... I said, "if you don't know how", not you have to. There is a difference.

 

[Andrew Stoller]

John, EVERY storm chaser at one point in their life was "(uneducated), and you've never done it before (inexperienced)" when it comes to storm chasing, INCLUDING YOU!

No offense, but your coming in here like your one of the top chasers with all this experience trying to tell us amateurs what we can and can't do, and you admit you've never even chased in tornado alley!

 

[Walt VanRheen]

I do not want to take away from the fact that everyone needs to chase and utilize the road system and follow local traffic laws. That is a given. I want to bring up a slightly different slant. There is something we all can do to cut back on the number of cars chasing these storms.
Has anyone ever thought to themselves "how do these lesser experienced, sometimes referred to as yahoo's know where to go"? Has anyone ever thought that the LIVE STREAMERs showing their GPS locations might be having an increase in the locals and the yahoo chasers? Has anyone ever thought that the posts on ST of the days TARGET and NOWCASTING might be also feeding the extra inexperienced on-lookers.
Yes, there are more chasers the ever before, but there are also more on-lookers and followers. If we stop telling them where we are by providing targets or nowcasts and stop providing our GPS locations, they would have less of a clue as to where they would need to go to find us.
Simply stated, if we stop posting targets, stop providing GPS locations, limit or eliminate now-casting of locations, many of the inexperienced untrained chasers will have no clue of where to go.
Just an idea.

 

[John Mullen]

John, EVERY storm chaser at one point in their life was "(uneducated), and you've never done it before (inexperienced)" when it comes to storm chasing, INCLUDING YOU!

No offense, but your coming in here like your one of the top chasers with all this experience trying to tell us amateurs what we can and can't do, and you admit you've never even chased in tornado alley!

So you're saying that's it's ok for everyone to head out in the plains with the hopes have bagging a monster tube with zero education? I think that's BS.

I know for a fact that I'm not alone when I say that I studied before I chased. That's the "right" way to do it, if there is one. Granted, we were all inexperienced (that would be the definition) but were we all uneducated? Who in their right mind would chase with ZERO education? I couldn't tell you how long I sat in front of books or a computer screen absorbing every miniscule amount of information I could, and I still do it to this day. I'm not the only one who does things this way. Information will keep you alive, enough said.

If you feel that it's ok for a chaser to head out on a chase with zero knowledge in meteorology, no idea how to read a simple plot, no idea how to identify storm structure (how many times have you heard someone call in a tornado report over the radio when in fact there was no tornado? Or reported a wall cloud that wasn't in fact a wall cloud? etc) then that's on you. That's not the message I'm here to spread.

Going to a Skywarn class (that most chasers will sleep through) for a day isn't a ticket to chase. Reading a FAQ on chasing isn't enough. Just like I said (and I keep getting called out for it but I'm being misquoted), if you can't forecast and chase the old school way then you shouldn't be chasing. Just because you can jump in your truck with a laptop and zoom around the plains with (mostly) up to date radar info and all that jazz, doesn't mean you should. It's like math. Just because you can sort out an equation with a calculator doesn't mean you'll be able to do it without one. And as we all know, there's not always a calculator within arms reach when you need one.

Let me break it down for the fourth time....

You need an education - Knowing how to do it without all the fancy techno crap. You need to understand the fundamentals.

Then go chase.

Then, after some experience is gained you will have not only an education (see: information) but intuition (gut feeling).


Education and experience come hand in hand, but you must have education first. If you don't get the fundamentals, you won't be prepared for the latter.

There comes times in the field where a meteorology textbook won't help you much, and that's when you rely on experience (see: intuition).

Case in point: "What's this cell going to do? Well according to what I learned (via education), it should strengthen and continue to move east. But what I'm seeing (via experience) is telling me this storm will weaken over the next 15 minutes. Boy, that cell to the south sure is looking nice (education/experience). Maybe I should ditch this storm and go for that one."

or

"Man, I think we're too close (education and/or experience). Maybe we should move further south. What are our road options (experience)?"

or

"This hail core looks nasty (experience), I don't think we should punch it."

Look, I could go all day but my point is, you're nothing but a danger if you don't know what you're seeing/doing. If you don't know what you're doing then by all means get out of the way.

If you don't learn then you'll never gain experience. This isn't necessarily a field to dive into with no prior knowledge, but if that's the message you want to spread then I won't stop you. I just don't think it's right.

 

[Brandon Goforth]

Yes, there are more chasers the ever before, but there are also more on-lookers and followers. If we stop telling them where we are by providing targets or nowcasts and stop providing our GPS locations, they would have less of a clue as to where they would need to go to find us.
Simply stated, if we stop posting targets, stop providing GPS locations, limit or eliminate now-casting of locations, many of the inexperienced untrained chasers will have no clue of where to go.
Just an idea.

Finally someone using their brain who "gets it". How about that! I agree. Technology has provided many ways to leach targets for sure. And many of the chasers complaining about convergence are the same ones posting targets on their websites, facebooks, etc for the world to see. It's almost comical when you think about it...

 

[Ryan McGinnis]

I think what a lot of people loose site of is that outside of our little chaser community, NOBODY CARES about things like this. Normal people know nothing about chasing, know nothing about how it has changed and they know nothing about these little spats and arguments that take place in the chase community every year.

Actually, even within the chaser community, I'd say that many of the high-end veteran chasers don't care enough to comment on it. The thing I've noticed following V2 is that most of those guys are too busy chasing to fart around with internet arguments about the state of chasing. They only care when it impacts them directly, i.e., 5/19 debacle that ended their chase, or Sean Casey's crew being filmed doing Stupid Human Tricks (which is problematic because the public conflates the TIV as being with Vortex 2 due to their proximity and storyline on Storm Chasers).

I can kinda see where they're coming from; we've all been been hand-wringing about where chasing is going for years, and now we've got people re-enacting Twister almost verbatim, using air cannons to shoot "probes" inside a tornado on national TV. As fun as it is to flog the drama llama, I don't think these discussions have much impact on chaser behavior.

 

[Doug Drace]

As usual, things seem to be getting way out of hand on here, regarding a very real and simple point of view about the increased hazards when chasing out here in the plains, particularly when a HIGH RISK is issued by the SPC. This is the number one reason I rarely post on here, because a fairly decent amount of you seem to get so personal in your attacks of a very real idea or issue that is being brought up. The original post clearly addresses the issue of the incredible "masses of inexperienced and uneducated storm chaser wannabees" that are currently reeking havoc on the plains during higher end severe weather risks. I have been chasing the southern plains since 1995, and like most of you, have personally seen and experienced the insane explosion of chasers and the problems on the roadways for which they create. Johns point is simple....what can be done about it? Honestly, I dont know the answer to it. I do know that when you have people who are driving like pure insane maniacs, passing chase carvans in their entirety on 2 lane HWYS with blind hills ahead of them (and I think most of us have seen it in person and on the recently released videos), then there is one sure fire way to help resolve the problem. Quit talking about "thinking about calling local law enforcement, and JUST DO IT!!! After the issues on HWY 33 in NW Oklahoma on the 19th, I dont know how many...would of, could of, should of posts I read on here....yet nobody did?! Another fantastic point was made by Walt VanRheen, with so many of us laying out the best target areas in black and white for all the Yahoos to see...where the heck do we expect the masses to go and eventually follow??? I personally was fortunate enough on May 10th and 19th to be forced to chase the Moderate Risk areas instead of the High Risks, due to my obligations to the television station I chase for in southern Oklahoma and north Texas, and all in all was able to miss most of the chaser circus parade further north on those days...still having some nice success as well as serving our most purposeful goal of advancing Tornado Warning times and in turn helping to save lives in the process. I havent totally ruled out chasing HIGH RISKS anymore, but personally I promise you this, as long as there is a Moderate Risk south of I-40 and a High Risk north of it...you can all count on one less chaser in the masses up there from now on woohoo AMEN!!! Thank God for my obligation to the news station down here...ya'll can have it! Also...what the heck is wrong with questioning peoples reasons, or calling them out for chasing....just to say they've chased. I see NOTHING WRONG with asking them to get some good old fashioned EDUCATION about severe weather and chasing??!! I know the easy route in this centry is to buy an aircard and read stormtrack posts, then jump in your car and haphazardly follow those who have spent a lifetime educating themselves...but I for one am proud of having had to learn meteorology, whether it was in the form of classical education or on my own, by beating down the doors of experienced meteorologists, begging them to educate me and show me the ropes because of my disgusting obsession with tornadic supercell storms! One last thing...as far as Johns lack of experience chasing out here in the plains...so what?! I have known him for quite sometime, and he chases plenty in the Carolinas with great success, so hes NOT an inexperienced storm chaser...only inexperienced in the plains...and right now, maybe thats not such a bad thing! Finally in conclusion...chill out on the personal attacks...cause none of us are perfect...none of us!!! Have a nice day, and dont right me any nasty replies, I dont plan to get into this anymore than what I just said...end of story...have a nice day all!!! I have a tremendous amount of respect for 99.9% of you guys and gals on here, cause you all love what you do, and yes you all have a right to be out there on any storm you so choose, its the careless idiots (running RED & BLUES WITH SIRENS and driving 90+mph while passing hoards of chasers on blind hills, just because they think they got a green light from the government in the form of a Grant or a lucrative TV Deal, risking the lives of the innocent coming the opposit direction, just to say they were the FIRST to get there blah, blah, blaaahhhh) who are screwing things up for us true diehards I take issue with! Cause in the end, its those people that chase with utter disregard for their fellow man, woman, child and chaser who are damaging the incredible experience of chasing for those who have dedicated their lives to the passion in their souls, for the ultimate chance to experience and share mother natures most exquiset glory....SAFE CHASING THE REST OF THE WAY TO ALL!!!

 

[Mikey Gribble]

I do not want to take away from the fact that everyone needs to chase and utilize the road system and follow local traffic laws. That is a given. I want to bring up a slightly different slant. There is something we all can do to cut back on the number of cars chasing these storms.
Has anyone ever thought to themselves "how do these lesser experienced, sometimes referred to as yahoo's know where to go"? Has anyone ever thought that the LIVE STREAMERs showing their GPS locations might be having an increase in the locals and the yahoo chasers? Has anyone ever thought that the posts on ST of the days TARGET and NOWCASTING might be also feeding the extra inexperienced on-lookers.
Yes, there are more chasers the ever before, but there are also more on-lookers and followers. If we stop telling them where we are by providing targets or nowcasts and stop providing our GPS locations, they would have less of a clue as to where they would need to go to find us.
Simply stated, if we stop posting targets, stop providing GPS locations, limit or eliminate now-casting of locations, many of the inexperienced untrained chasers will have no clue of where to go.
Just an idea.

I post forecasts on a regular basis strictly to help out other chasers/forecasters that aren't capable of forecasting for themselves. The reason I do that is because I didn't know anybody when I started chasing that could help me out. I had to teach myself meteorology and learn how to chase on my own and it was a bitch to say the least. I am doing my part to make it easier for the newer chasers to learn the basics of forecasting and chasing. Everybody has just as much right as anybody else does out there. They are public roads. I'm not a big fan of the local yahoos that came out on a whim, but like it or not they have the right to be there. I don't really mind the beginner chasers that are making an attempt to learn meteorology and become a better chaser. I will always help anybody that is putting effort into becoming a better chaser, regardless of what level they are currently at. Those are the guys that might be ripping off targets. Regular locals aren't aware of where to find all the chaser forecasts and chaser maps that show our locations. Those are the ones I could do without out there. There shouldn't ever be any prerequisite for watching a storm. I think you're an idiot if you try to get too close when you don't have any experience, but I respect your right to do it. To each their own.
There is a very simple solution to getting away from the crowds. Chase on back roads. I always chase on back roads. Not because I want to get away from the crowds. I am on back roads 90% of the time because I like to get as close as possible to the updraft base, so traveling back roads is a must. IMO it is shocking how few of chasers you'll see on the back roads compared to the paved roads. It is night and day. I remember on the Hill City storm a few years ago I was parked watching the tornado about a quarter mile in front of me over a field. I only saw two other cars in the area while I was following along with that storm. Then I had to cross a paved road and it was literally bumper to bumper. Get a 4 wheel drive vehicle and stay on back roads. That will solve your problem.

 

[Joey Ketcham]

If you don't know what you're doing (uneducated), and you've never done it before (inexperienced), then you do not need to be chasing.

If we were to go by that logic, then there would only be a handful of storm chasers out there. When I first began storm spotting 13 years go, I did so after years upon years of reading books and self teaching myself about the mechanics of thunderstorms and tornadoes. I started going out into my county during severe weather and taught myself the ropes of chasing after all these years.

If we just sit back and not get into storm chasing because we've never done it before, then we'd all still just be sitting around. At some point you just have to take the plunge and get out there and do it and learn from it. If you just sit back and not chance it, then how will you ever learn?

Most people get into storm chasing just doing that, by just going out and doing it and learn as you go.

 

[Jason Boggs]

I know for a fact that I'm not alone when I say that I studied before I chased.

I've been chasing for 12 years, and I didn't know crap the first few times I went out to chase. I knew I had to educate myself, but I also knew that experience in the field played a huge part along with the bookwork.

 

[Andrew Stoller]

So you're saying that's it's ok for everyone to head out in the plains with the hopes have bagging a monster tube with zero education? I think that's BS.

.

Yes, I think that's OK. I know there will be consequences for that, but I'm OK with it, because other people are discovering a passion for storm chasing just like I had about 5 years ago. Many thousands of people are going to start storm chasing in the coming years. It's a fact! Who am I to tell them they can't do it? And I'm not naive enough to sequester the fact it's going to create problems for all of us. I've dealt with it since I started chasing. I don't hang out in the chaser hoards, and I never drive like Jeff Gordon on public roads, even though I've ridden with people who do, and am always around people who do.

Thank god the most probable place on earth for tornadic supercells isn't Iran.

 

[John Mullen]

Doug, thanks brother! I don't know if you'll see this or not but I'll give ya a shout this weekend.

When I first began storm spotting 13 years go, I did so after years upon years of reading books and self teaching myself about the mechanics of thunderstorms and tornadoes.

Hey, you and me both, man. You made some great points.

...I'm OK with it, because other people are discovering a passion for storm chasing just like I had about 5 years ago. Many thousands of people are going to start storm chasing in the coming years. It's a fact! Who am I to tell them they can't do it? And I'm not naive enough to sequester the fact it's going to create problems for all of us. I've dealt with it since I started chasing. I don't hang out in the chaser hoards....

....Thank god the most probable place on earth for tornadic supercells isn't Iran.

You know, I can respect that. I'm not trying to come across as a jackass (which I think I have), I'm just passionate about what we do. So if I offended you, I'm sorry. But yeah, I can respect that. I enjoy seeing the faces of chasers that witness a tornado for the first time and watching them struggle to keep a straight face. I feel you there. I'm just worried that the new influx of chasers, with some of them being a bit misinformed could lead to problems further down the road.

I post forecasts on a regular basis strictly to help out other chasers/forecasters that aren't capable of forecasting for themselves. The reason I do that is because I didn't know anybody when I started chasing that could help me out. I had to teach myself meteorology and learn how to chase on my own and it was a bitch to say the least.....


....Get a 4 wheel drive vehicle and stay on back roads. That will solve your problem.

Mikey, now that's what I'm talking about it! I like that. I know exactly how you feel. I went through exactly that (self-taught for a number of years) and although it worked to some degree, it was indeed a pain in the rear. That's when I met Doug and he really taught me the ropes. There's nothing like an experienced hand guiding you. I can see how posting targets and such on ST could also lead to problems, no doubt. The forum is open to anyone and everyone, which is perfectly understandable, it should be. But of course there are going to be a handful of those people that use the data/info you guys post when they probably shouldn't have. There's nothing anyone can do about it, though. But when you really think about it, do you think a flat out yahoo reads anything on ST? Probably not. So I don't know, it could go either way.

And 4x4 all the way, definitely. I don't mind taking my car to work but not chasing. The high center of gravity has it's pros and cons but I like knowing that if something happens and I end up in mud or driving over debris then I can likely get myself back out (or anyone else that is stuck). I've got a '94 Jeep ZJ with 31" BFG A/Ts, lockers, winch, hi-lift jack, straps, chains, climbing rope/harnesses, fire/rescue turnout gear, the whole 9 and then some. I do some off-roading on a regular basis and I'm a vollie firefighter/paramedic so I go prepared for anything and everything when I'm on the road. Hands down, 4x4 is the way to go.

Speaking of 4 wheel drive, did any of those guys in SD have 4x4 trucks? I didn't see anything about it in the thread but it looked like I saw a few SUVs in those cell phone shots. I'm glad everybody made it out alright though.

 

[Justin Avery]

The way I see it, if you don't know how to forecast and chase the old school way (think Howie Bluestein, back in the 80's. Pay-phones, maps, and a few plots from that morning. That's it. And he was very sucessful), you should not be out in the plains. Period. You're not competent to chase safely and successfully.

The way I see it John this is the phrasing that stirred up the hornet's nest. You state that if you can't chase old school with a couple plots and maps then "you're not competent to chase safely...". I take personal exception to that because I would classify myself as a "green" chaser. I've been at it for a few years now and am just reaching the point of being able to forecast for myself competently. To say that this makes me unsafe to myself and others is ignorant and arrogant. I'm responsible and self-aware enough to know my own limits and chase storms with these in mind.
I love weather, always have, always will. I agree 100% with Adam. You may feel that I need to stick to the books and threads for another year or two before I get behind the wheel but frankly I don't care what you think. I'll continue to chase, continue to learn, continue to have a blast, and be safe and respectful while doing it.

 

[Adam Lucio]

It is everyones god given right to chase. Nobody better ever dare tell me I don't deserve to be there just because I don't fit their credentials that were developed in the 70s.

Are there too many people out there? Yes.

Should some of them NOT be out there? Yes.

Do I wish some of them would go away? Yes.

Does bitching about any of the above questions solve anything? NO.

Seriously...its not that hard. If you are so worried about crowds, chaos and the image of chasing and how it will reflect on you...then learn to chase in March or October. Listening to people bitch whine and moan about May crowds in Oklahoma is getting old. You are chasing a statistical peak to increase your chances of success just like everyone else.

If thats all you can do because of your boring 9-5 job and where you live...then thats your fault. Move to the plains, get a different job if it means that much to you. Don't expect everyone else to change to fit your ideal situation. You have to learn how to adapt and make the desired changes for yourself.

Learn to chase in the off season and take bigger gambles. Learn to chase areas in IL, IN, OH, WI, or IA where chaser numbers are down.

Learn how to forecast areas of secondary storm development that are outside of the 15% hatched areas. They can be pretty rewarding at times.

 

[Dal Archer]

I understand what John is saying and I do agree with some of it. It has gotten to the point (more than once) that I will literally see parents with their families sitting by the side of the road waiting for the "nader". Obviously there are many people out now that couldn't tell a wall cloud from a shelf cloud.

However, what irks me even more than that is the irresponsible road behavior by legitimate chasers. Chuck Doswell years ago wrote (paraphrased) that if you cannot get into position without speeding then you simply should miss the tornado. I have had people in the car with me who get frustrated because I will not drive like a maniac. Too bad! It is not worth killing yourself (or more likely someone else) because you drive like a nut.

Folks, we are not special just because we chase. We should be bound to the same laws as everyone else. I am dreading what is going to happen when some nut chaser who is absolutely flying plows into a bunch of chasers set up on the side of the road and kills several people. I am really afraid that this is going to happen. Or it could be that a massive tornado plows into a bunch of "chasers" (I use the term loosely here to define those without any real knowledge) and we have a bloodbath.

I am also afraid that states are going to begin to create legislation that will greatly curtail chasing privileges. One big incident like I described above would provide the impetus to get legislation rolling. I have read on here before that they will never be able to do that. Wanna bet? It would not take much to create legislation that would essentially state that it is illegal to park on the side of the road and film storms if it creates a public hazard. Guess what? Then it is up to local law enforcement to determine who is creating a hazard.

I am getting tired of hearing that it is someone's right to chase the way that they want. I only agree with this to an extent. If you are breaking laws to chase, then no, it is not your right and I personally hope that you get nailed repeatedly by law enforcement. Just my two cents.........