Ignorance of few affect the many

[Jason Persoff]

First off, I know Gregg Potter well and have chased with him. I am not here to defend his company's actions, but can state that Gregg is passionate about weather, a responsible chaser, and very brave to place himself head-on into the criticisms here.

I here the passionate counterarguments to F5's chase technique and found Joel Taylor's dissection (post #23) to be one of the best dissections of chase technique involving a knowledge of ambient atmospheric conditions in factoring local storm genesis. That's a very worthy post to reflect on for all new to the hobby.

Gregg Potter is NOT new to the hobby, I'd note. He is also well-trained in meteorology, and I would add that his own logic did not appear flawed, but unfortunately a bad situation blew up in front of his chase SUV.

I can remember numerous situations where even a cautious chasing approach has had unexpected outcomes. Jim Leonard and I were in a vehicle during the Hallum Nebraska tornado in 2004. We weren't even close to catching the tornado and were well outside the RFD (we were in sunshine about 1/2-3/4 mile away from any precip). We got nailed by a rogue hail stone that looked like it was out for Jim: it impailed itself at eye level on the driver's side. There was no hail around. It's just we were close "enough" to get "lucky" to be on the receiving end of hailzilla.

Bill Hark and I were also chasing on May 29, 2004, and were shocked by anticyclonic spinups about the main tornado over 1/2 mile away. Several spinups crossed not 100 yards from us and were certainly not predictable.

At the end of the day, I don't feel Gregg was ignorant, and, I do agree that additional preparation is necessary when you're touring someone around instead of engaging in the hobby solo.

Statistically speaking, the biggest hazard facing chasers remains motor vehicle accidents and rarely (directly) the storms themselves. I know that Steve Miller lost a motor vehicle to a Turkey (in all places, Turkey, TX), I have had close brushins with cattle, and we've all seen deer counterintuitively sacrificing themselves to our headlamps.

Last: Lanny--from a physician's standpoint, the cuts I saw on the video were likely minor and bled a lot due to being facial in origin. I don't disagree that there was substantial POTENTIAL for these to be major injuries (think: glass embedded in eyes), but there wasn't any photographic evidence to suggest a high likelihood of major injury, IMHO.

 

[Glenn Dixon]

I second Jason's remarks. And all I can say about the turkey incident is that I am glad we were in the *second* vehicle that day...

I dare say that if you chase long enough you *will* end up in a situation where you suddenly realize you made a mistake and you begin fervently hoping you won't be forced to actually *pay* for said mistake. Some times you do, or your insurance does, but only a fool doesn't try to learn from it.

 

[Lanny Dean]

I second Jason's remarks. And all I can say about the turkey incident is that I am glad we were in the *second* vehicle that day...

I dare say that if you chase long enough you *will* end up in a situation where you suddenly realize you made a mistake and you begin fervently hoping you won't be forced to actually *pay* for said mistake. Some times you do, or your insurance does, but only a fool doesn't try to learn from it.

Probably one of the best post in this thread!

We have all no doubt been in a "situation" that was caused by a poor decision. I think it boils down to how you handle said situation after the fact....I have no problem telling someone "hey, I messed up". For me, there should be no reason to lie about it and try to pass blame on to those around you for your poor decision... That was my point. I don't care if you have been in the game 20 years or even 40 years, are a "true" meteorologist or have seen 200 tornadoes. Take responsibility for YOUR OWN actions.
The big issue here was/is the fact that people were hurt by a poor decision which I am sure we can all agree could have been much worse.
That decison(s) has already affected the tour industry, at least a little. It has also affected the chasing community as a whole (read the latest story via weather.com)

I am Glad that Gregg responded, albeit with not much truth in the story, he did respond though.
As Glenn and others have noted, the only thing to do now is hope to learn from it. It is what it is.

 

[rdale]

The reality is quite simple -- if a police officer sees someone near a storm breaking the law and then has reasonable suspicion that the person is a storm chaser then they can ask for a license.

Again - reality doesn't match. The LAST thing a cop is going to do while a tornado is raking his community would be to stop random cars to check for their license. And what's going to differentiate a "chaser" from a "spotter"?

 

[Brandon Goforth]

Again - reality doesn't match. The LAST thing a cop is going to do while a tornado is raking his community would be to stop random cars to check for their license. And what's going to differentiate a "chaser" from a "spotter"?

For the record, I've seen cops pull over chasers for reckless driving while a tornado was in progress in their area. But just to play along, what about all the times out there when a tornado is not in progress?

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

I have to agree with rdale on this. Off-duty firemen, SKYWARN, and eSpotters will need to be sifted out of the same bunch of chasers; that complicates it further. It would only complicate any LEO's job to deal with convergence - when at any moment they may be called off to duty.

Not practical to do so...

 

[Jeremy Den Hartog]

Again - reality doesn't match. The LAST thing a cop is going to do while a tornado is raking his community would be to stop random cars to check for their license. And what's going to differentiate a "chaser" from a "spotter"?

Your right, I don't think they would bother with this during an actual tornado event. However, I have had police approach our vehicle numerous times while sitting along side the road seeing if we were okay or had vehicle problems. What would stop them from issuing a citation at this time? Just to be clear, I'm not talking about sitting along side the road while its sunny out waiting for storms to develop, I'm talking about sitting along side the road while a thunderstorm is in progress but isn't yet tornadic. It would be pretty obvious to the Police officer that you are one of two things - either a storm chaser or storm spotter and if they were to regulate things, they would come up with some kind of system to identify people who are spotters - I don't think this would be to hard to do (they could just have spotters 'check in' with the local Police department before going out so the Police would know who is a chaser and who is a spotter).

Really the question to me is if they 'would' not if they 'could'...

 

[rdale]

For the record, I've seen cops pull over chasers for reckless driving while a tornado was in progress in their area.

That's reckless driving. The theory by some here is that they will set up roadblocks and check every car entering an xx-mile radius around the storm as it moves across the countryside.

 

[Jeremy Lemanski]

It would be pretty obvious to the Police officer that you are one of two things - either a storm chaser or storm spotter and if they were to regulate things, they would come up with some kind of system to identify people who are spotters - I don't think this would be to hard to do (they could just have spotters 'check in' with the local Police department before going out so the Police would know who is a chaser and who is a spotter).

Really the question to me is if they 'would' not if they 'could'...

I'm a spotter as i call in reports to the nws about svr weather as i find it, but i also take pictures and videos of said svr weather, so do i get a ticket for chasing or am i ok because i'm spotting?

 

[Joey Ketcham]

I'm a spotter as i call in reports to the nws about svr weather as i find it, but i also take pictures and videos of said svr weather, so do i get a ticket for chasing or am i ok because i'm spotting?

Same here, I am very active in Skywarn in my county and I have a great relationship with both ICT and SGF so when I'm chasing in the CWA for either office I call in with reports or report it over ham radio.

So I will call myself a storm spotter and avoid being cited for storm chasing.

 

[Todd Webb]

The evolution of storm chasing is not unlike the evolution of mountain climbing and in particular the climbing of Mount Everest, insofar as the pinnacle of storm chasing is getting relatively close to a tornado.

Both endeavors were began by a small but determined and near fanatical group of explorers. There was much to be learned in the early years- new strategies, new equipment. The old guard was then joined by the new blood, most of whom learned at the feet of the old guard. Progress was made; new ideas, better ideas came to the forefront and year after year the endeavors matured.

After a while commercial interests took note. These commercial interests came from within the still small commuty of explorers. By ones and twos and threes, paying neophytes were given small, but intense, glimpses into the inner sanctums of the explorers worlds, and then returned to their ho-hum every day lives.

Business was good in the explorer trade. The explorer companies had virtually every facet of the enterprises 'wired tight.' More summits; more tornadoes were achieved every year. This truly was a science- A+B+C= success.

Then, one fateful day in May of 1996, something went dreadfully wrong in the explorer trade on Mount Everest. Multiple clients died. Multiple world class guides died. The system the explorers had so carefully built over the years gave way to two variables they were not, could not, be prepared for- Human judgement and Mother Nature.

I fear it is inevitable that Human judgement and Mother Nature will collude again, this time with the explorers of storms, with the same tragic results.

 

[Shane Adams]

I totally agree with Joel, it's not Reed and crew that has caused this "have to get inside" mentality that more and more chasers have, it's the general public wanting extreme danger scenes that is driving the chasing "industry" into the ground...literally. Media wants what the public wants (ratings) and will find their way to deliver. If I have to sacrifice "the shot" in order to stay safe or keep others safe, then so be it. Like a friend said to me the other day, there will always be more tornadoes.

Really?

So you're saying (all of you who agree with the above quote):

There's no way Reed's videos and exploits over the past several years have influenced others to try and get close. That's what you're saying? If so, then that is 100% grade-A BULL****.

Now, is Reed responsible for others' actions? Hell no.

But to come on here and say Reed's activity since 2003 has had zero influence on others or is in no way a cause of others to try and get close.....puh-leaze.

Reed's crew has said it for years(boastingly I might add): "The crowds thin-out within a half-mile "

And now Reed's crew themselves are noting "huge crowds" around and under mesos...but it's in no way influenced by what they've done? What-the-****-ever.

 

[Shane Adams]

And FWIW.....the only quote I've seen from Jim Leonard about this incident was "we got ourselves into the circulation." end-quote.

I've seen nothing from Jim about blaming others, only that he blamed himself. Perhaps I don't have all the information, but Jim's been my #1 chaser since before I chased and I'll defend him to the bitter end against anyone. He's seen and done more than most of you all strung together. Taken chances that you newbies would shiver at, and came home unscathed with amazing video.

I find it really pathetic that so many on here are slamming him when they themselves have been in bad situations. Just because it's a ****ing tour, does that make the lives inside MORE important than those of a carload of simple chasers? Does it validate all the chaser lives risked before that weren't tours just because nobody inside (who nearly died) was a ****ing customer?

Tell ya what....throw those stones, and I'll throw mine.

 

[Doug Ott]

That's reckless driving. The theory by some here is that they will set up roadblocks and check every car entering an xx-mile radius around the storm as it moves across the countryside.

Hmmm. Better build the General Lee instead of the dominator. Bo and Luke always evaded Roscoe. I d seen the General jump plenty of road blocks too. Seriously, the ONLY thing to regulate chasing is the price of OIL. $5-6 gas would eliminate alot of us.

 

[Nathan Withrow]

And FWIW.....the only quote I've seen from Jim Leonard about this incident was "we got ourselves into the circulation." end-quote.

I've seen nothing from Jim about blaming others, only that he blamed himself. Perhaps I don't have all the information, but Jim's been my #1 chaser since before I chased and I'll defend him to the bitter end against anyone. He's seen and done more than most of you all strung together. Taken chances that you newbies would shiver at, and came home unscathed with amazing video.

I find it really pathetic that so many on here are slamming him when they themselves have been in bad situations. Just because it's a ****ing tour, does that make the lives inside MORE important than those of a carload of simple chasers? Does it validate all the chaser lives risked before that weren't tours just because nobody inside (who nearly died) was a ****ing customer?

Tell ya what....throw those stones, and I'll throw mine.

Shane I agree with you 100%! Jim Leonard is one of the good ones, and is a great person, and is a good friend of mine. Many have said things that I do not agree with, and it pissed me off that the chaser community is bashing Jim. I look up to him over all of the rest out there. I do appreciate him, and what he has done for the chaser community.