Will chaser congestion and unncessary risk taking lead to anti-chase legislation?

This also generally covers freedom of scientific research also.

So, under this clause of the US Bill of Rights...the rights of any person to obtain a photo/video of a tornado (for possible publication) should he/she so desire is protected just as much as that of a scientist conducting research under the concept of 'scientific freedom', Or if necessary, just put some instrument on/in your vehicle and claim you are conducting scientific research correlated by photographic evidence.

Guys - no. Due respect, but don't do this. Don't lie, don't try to BS people. "I'm here to photograph the weather event" - that's it. Be honest, be forthright about who you are and what you're doing if you don't think it's wrong. The whole "BUT SCIENCE" and "I'M SAVING LIVES" business - everybody sees through these obvious impostures and they are frankly an insult to people's intelligence, law enforcement or no, and that's a big part of our hobby's PR problem.

If you really are spotting to report or you really are operating in support of some university or agency's scientific program, that's fine; but if not, please don't go carrying around some cheap consumer-grade "instrumentation" so that you can pretend to be a scientist when you're actually not. It's puerile.
 
Those activities are also highly regulated by independent and government entities and have stringent oversight. NASCAR has its own internal oversight committee for safety, rules and governance.

Skydiving rules are overseen by the FAA and regulated by the United States Parachute Association. Gear has to be inspected and certified at regular intervals. Facilities have to meet certain standards, and instructors and pilots have to maintain certifications, licenses and undergo continuing education.

In storm chasing, as long as you have a driver's license, there's no other requirements, no certification requirements, no licensing, not even any training. So I'm inclined to think your comparison is pretty poor and not on equal level.


And yet there have been exponentially more deaths and injuries in any one of those mentioned activities even with their licensing, regulation, and oversight, even if one were to reduce the number statistically to match number of participants:incident ratio. Factly, if you were to compare stormchasing incidents with incidents of other regulated but inherrently "risky" hobbies, storm chasing would, statistically speaking, be much safer. I think the comparison is foundationally invalid for these reasons. And I know, it was not you that originally made the comparison, just inputting my thoughts on comparing chasing with other recreational activities.

As was stated many times in this thread, this comes up at least once a year, and still nothing has gained any legal traction or even been given any form of serious consideration. The mentioned reasons ring loud, enforcement, manpower, and inherrent freedoms will be the barriers that prevent a legislation. I know where you are coming from with your thoughts/concerns and I'm not assaulting your standpoint/concerns/thoughts at all. But for a blunt answer, no, there will not be legislation enacted to regulate or prevent stormchasing. Ever.

Now, in the future should we see this happen, feel free to reflect back to my post and I will take my medicine and go with tail between legs, but I really don't think that will be happening.
 
Long time member, first time poster to this board.

This topic strikes a nerve in me for a number of reasons and I feel compelled to offer my opinion.

I strongly agree with those that say chasers like Bettis of the Weather Channel give 95% of chasers who chase responsibly a bad name. Those of us in the field know that most chasers are responsible, knowledgeable people who aren't causing problems and are chasing to satisfy their love of storms and their desire to learn about and observe them. But the average Joe who isn't interested in getting near a tornado sees TWC situation and comes to the conclusion that 'storm chasing is irresponsible, dangerous, and we need to do something to protect these people from themselves." That's where, I fear, legislation will come from. More on that in a minute.

What happened with the chasers from TWC is a direct reflection of our society of "getting the video that no one else has gotten". Instead of using the knowledge that I am sure they had (don't approach from the northeast, etc.), they broke fundamental rules of chasing for the shock value. And then you have the average Joe. I remember when I was in high school and even college in the mid 1990s, storm chasing was not 'cool' like it is today. You didn't see a convoy of 30 cars when you were out chasing storms. It just didn't happen. Now, thanks to many outlets in the media, storm chasing has become cool and people who have no business chasing tornadoes are out doing it, because they see people on reality TV shows doing it and it looks fun. What they don't understand is the risk involved.

I am strongly against ANY kind of legislation that prohibits people from driving into storms. I am not a lawyer by any means, but that, to me, is simply an infringement on my rights. It is one thing for Law Enforcement to close a road that is known to be in the path of a tornado. That is in the public's best interests and can be defended. But to prohibit people from driving in their personal vehicles on public roads because of 'certain motivations' seems outrageous. That said, I would not be surprised to see this come down sometime in the future. We already have many laws that have one purpose: to protect ourselves from ourselves making bad choices (seat belt law comes to mind). This would be right along the same line. And the worst part of it all... it would come about because of irresponsible chasers like the dude from TWC who publicly make idiotic decisions for shock value...to get the shot that no one has gotten. We may all have to pay the price for behavior like this. Rant over.
 
Factly, if you were to compare stormchasing incidents with incidents of other regulated but inherrently "risky" hobbies, storm chasing would, statistically speaking, be much safer.

Now, thanks to many outlets in the media, storm chasing has become cool and people who have no business chasing tornadoes are out doing it, because they see people on reality TV shows doing it and it looks fun. What they don't understand is the risk involved.

Well come on; it's either an inherently risky activity or it isn't. If storm chasing is so profoundly safer than other outdoor activities then what makes us think we've got a place making determinations about whether other people who have chosen this safer activity have no business engaging in it? I'm pretty sure that, just like the "good 95%" of us, these people have also made a judgment that they know enough to mitigate the known risk.
 
It won't be federal legislation. It will start with the individual states. Don't know if it will be Kansas or Oklahoma, but if I were betting, it will likely be Kansas. Like I said earlier, history shows many stupid state laws, but that doesn't stop them from trying. If and when it ever becomes a constitutional question, I doubt the Supreme Court would even hear such a case and also doubt that any individual or group of chasers could finance such a legal challenge. So, those of you saying legislation could never happen may be a little over-confident.
 
This is my first post, but I've been lurking for some time. Lightning photography led me to chasing a couple years ago. Right form the start, it was obvious and vital to me to chase responsibly, safely, and knowledgeably - but how can I convince anyone who has never chased that its not only crazy or dangerous, but is a valid hobby that can provide some benefit to society? Chasing can obviously be negative things, especially if chasers are taking unnecessary risks. We've all seen chasers who ignore basic courtesies when driving or pulling off the road, or when gathering at restaurants, gas stations, and hotels.

It seems to me that after an event like this we should expect a strong reaction, especially in a society of media sensationalism. There is some validity to the questions directed at chasing. I can hardly blame law enforcement and emergency managers from taking a harder look at a group of people perceived as wildly flocking about a deadly storm headed at their community - some who are paying more attention to their video taking than anything else. They don't want the additional headache in their jurisdiction while they are already overwhelmed with the weather itself.

The event in El Reno really was a mess - you could feel it from the moment the storms kicked off. I was leaving Edmond to drop south through Piedmont as the May 31st storm was first initiating southwest of El Reno. It wasn't long before I felt uncomfortable both with the looks of the developing storm, and with the volume of both chaser and regular traffic I was experiencing. I was having doubts that I would easily get in position before the storm advanced east- and I simply don't eliminate my margin or go through cores, ever. When the storm went tornado warned, I took a couple minutes to study radar and the traffic situation, and I actually headed north and east back OUT of the area, deciding not to chase that day. Speaking for myself, I felt that was a responsible chain of decision making.

From my observations in the relatively short time I've chased compared to some of you, many or even most chasers make responsible decisions, but there is still that element who will never back off, who is driving too fast, is intimidating the public in big bright chase vehicles, punching cores for the thrill, clogging up gas stations like some biker gang, etc. I enjoy all parts of chasing culture, but I think it is on us to do a bit of self regulation of behavior and lay a bit lower when out around the public, who is scared of these storms and is not always able to see us as welcome. When you are terrified of something or at least concerned by it, and others appear thrilled, you have some resentment for them.

Hopefully the media furor will die down. In the mean time, in my opinion there is a lot that some chasers can do to improve our image to the public and hopefully avoid legislation or regulation. I haven't been chasing all that long, but thats how I see it. Sorry for the rant.
 
In the USA Today article it states that "storm chasing puts the participants at risk". So does race car driving, skydiving, and many other activities, but I haven't heard anyone say those activities should be banned.

Those activities are regulated, though, either by self-imposed association standards or through state/local legislation.
 
Well come on; it's either an inherently risky activity or it isn't. If storm chasing is so profoundly safer than other outdoor activities then what makes us think we've got a place making determinations about whether other people who have chosen this safer activity have no business engaging in it? I'm pretty sure that, just like the "good 95%" of us, these people have also made a judgment that they know enough to mitigate the known risk.

I think you completely took my post out of context. I never stated a thing about whether anyone should engage in any activity. Storm chasing is inherrently risky, NASCAR is inherrently risky, skydiving is inherrently risky, mountain/rock climbing is inherrently risky, dirt bike motocross is inherrently risky. Now, take the number of participants in a given segment for each tasks, and ratio that number with the number of injuries or fatalities. Now bring the participants to an equal number and scale the number of incidents equally. Which out of any of those will have the fewest number of injuries/fatalities?

My point was it is foundationally errored to compare them in terms of regulating/licensing storm chasing and a perceived resulting decrease in the number of incidents. As all the other activities are strongly regulated, yet suffer a much higher ratio of incidents.
 
And yet there have been exponentially more deaths and injuries in any one of those mentioned activities even with their licensing, regulation, and oversight, even if one were to reduce the number statistically to match number of participants:incident ratio. Factly, if you were to compare stormchasing incidents with incidents of other regulated but inherrently "risky" hobbies, storm chasing would, statistically speaking, be much safer. I think the comparison is foundationally invalid for these reasons. And I know, it was not you that originally made the comparison, just inputting my thoughts on comparing chasing with other recreational activities.

As was stated many times in this thread, this comes up at least once a year, and still nothing has gained any legal traction or even been given any form of serious consideration. The mentioned reasons ring loud, enforcement, manpower, and inherrent freedoms will be the barriers that prevent a legislation. I know where you are coming from with your thoughts/concerns and I'm not assaulting your standpoint/concerns/thoughts at all. But for a blunt answer, no, there will not be legislation enacted to regulate or prevent stormchasing. Ever.

Now, in the future should we see this happen, feel free to reflect back to my post and I will take my medicine and go with tail between legs, but I really don't think that will be happening.

I agree the comparison between storm chasing and skydiving/nascar is invalid as well. They are private corporations with lots of oversight and safety measures. Storm chasing is completely person independent. Stormtrack doesn't regulate storm chasing any more or less than any other web site out there does. This is simply a forum for discussion of the weather, forecasting, chasing, . Outside of that, stormtrack has no real purpose (that is not saying Stormtrack is dull or a bad place, lol) as far as the organization or oversight of storm chasing goes.

I agree that nothing previously gained legal traction, but in the same respect, the government didn't have 3 bodies to wave in front of the problem, and now they do. We also haven't seen the types of chaser convergence in the past that we're seeing now and on the scale that we're seeing it. Traffic conditions and hindering Law Enforcement from getting to where they go are becoming (note the tense...becoming) a problem. When the average citizen is writing in to their local city legislation or city council's complaining about not being able to get where they need to go when a storm is coming...there is in fact a growing problem. It may have not come full circle enough yet to bring about legislation, but we can be rest assured if WE as chasers don't curb the problem, THERE WILL BE at some point down the road legislation that does.


I am to going reiterate for everyone reading this thread (apparently some seem to willfully ignore this fact)

1.) I DO NOT want legislation in any form, fashion, shape or way to prohibit, ban, or regulate storm chasing. I am AGAINST IT. Not for it.
2.) I DO believe, that if the extreme risk taking/getting up close continues it will happen and that's why I started the thread to discuss it. I hope it doesn't lead to legislation (although somehow, I'm sure I'll get blamed for it, if it does happen, because I brought the topic up).
3.) By discussing this, it was also my hope we can all become a bit more aware of our own behaviors while chasing and police ourselves accordingly so no one is giving the politicians any further reason to intervene and do the policing for us.
 
It won't be federal legislation. It will start with the individual states. Don't know if it will be Kansas or Oklahoma, but if I were betting, it will likely be Kansas. Like I said earlier, history shows many stupid state laws, but that doesn't stop them from trying. If and when it ever becomes a constitutional question, I doubt the Supreme Court would even hear such a case and also doubt that any individual or group of chasers could finance such a legal challenge. So, those of you saying legislation could never happen may be a little over-confident.

The ACLU would pick that case up in a heartbeat.
 
It won't be federal legislation. It will start with the individual states. Don't know if it will be Kansas or Oklahoma, but if I were betting, it will likely be Kansas. Like I said earlier, history shows many stupid state laws, but that doesn't stop them from trying. If and when it ever becomes a constitutional question, I doubt the Supreme Court would even hear such a case and also doubt that any individual or group of chasers could finance such a legal challenge. So, those of you saying legislation could never happen may be a little over-confident.

Mike, you are correct in that states can pass whatever legislation they want, and far more asinine regulations have been passed by states than this (note: I highly doubt anything like this would withstand judicial review given that it were actually enforced). However, I don't understand why some people think the states would seriously find a need for some sort of anti-storm chasing legislation per se. As I understand it the major problems here have historically been one or more of the following: reckless driving by chasers, chasers and locals possibly putting themselves in harms way and forcing rescue personnel to tend to their injuries as well as local persons impacted by the severe weather, and/or congested roadways causing traffic jams, largely because people are stopping, standing or parking improperly on roadways or otherwise driving too slow trying to observe what is going on. In all three cases, there are generally existing statutes that can be enforced to deal with the problem. Law enforcement has wide discretion to enforce a myriad of traffic laws for those infractions that are committed while operating a motor vehicle (or pedestrians walking/standing) on a public right-of-way, and some states have regulations that require people engaging in risk-taking behaviors and later needing the assistance of emergency personnel to compensate those agencies for time and resources if those services are needed. I sometimes take issue with how that last one is applied, but that's another topic. In short, I just don't understand why anyone thinks the states seriously believe there is a need for a carte blanche anti-chasing law of sorts. Why is the strict enforcement of present traffic laws not enough?

Assuming that no additional law enforcement officers or monies are allocated to enforce such hypothetical legislation, it seems like a moot point with not enough resources to enforce said legislation. They can't even seem to deal effectively with the problem given present resources and all the traffic laws already on the books, so the usual de facto solution seems to be rolling roadblocks, which is creating a new and potentially deadly hazard that someone needs to be addressing more than anti-chasing legislation.
 
I think you completely took my post out of context. I never stated a thing about whether anyone should engage in any activity. Storm chasing is inherrently risky, NASCAR is inherrently risky, skydiving is inherrently risky, mountain/rock climbing is inherrently risky, dirt bike motocross is inherrently risky. Now, take the number of participants in a given segment for each tasks, and ratio that number with the number of injuries or fatalities. Now bring the participants to an equal number and scale the number of incidents equally. Which out of any of those will have the fewest number of injuries/fatalities?

Except that storm chasing truthfully is more heavily regulated by the government than any of these outside of perhaps skydiving.

NASCAR, motocross, rock climbing - these are very largely self-regulated by corporate organizations or sport-specific associations, with only a few actual municipal laws applied directly toward them. There aren't even very many governmental regulations when it comes to spectator safety - read the fine print on any professional sports event ticket to see how little you are actually protected by law as a spectator. Skydiving is special because they use air and anything that uses air is subject to the FAA; but in a sense, storm chasing is exactly like that. The entire "hobby" consists of driving on surface roads, an activity which is already entirely subject to very strict state and local regulation - contrary to some chaser's demonstrated behavior, there are stated limits to speed, lane use, vehicle attitude and safety, and so forth, which no other law absolves chasers from following just because they're "chasing". Indeed, if storm chasing is ever directly legislated against, it would most likely be in the form of additions to the traffic code rather than new stand-alone laws.

Another problem we have is, storm chasers don't report accidents/fatalities the same way other outdoor activities are reported. When someone dies or is injured at say a motocross event, everybody knows about it because so many people are watching. They are reported to the governing professional/amateur sport association and media outlets who report on the events and participants, and the numbers are made public.

But who reports storm chasing injuries? To whom are they reported as such? The fatalities of last week were reported because the chasers were so famous even outside their field - but let's be pragmatic: if you or I are found in our rolled vehicle, that will likely be reported as a storm fatality, not a storm chasing fatality. If you or I get a blown out window that cuts us up, or we get rolled but not killed, that won't be reported as anything because there's nobody to report to - we go to the hospital, and that's it. We call the insurance company, and report "storm damage", and that's it. We get stuck in the mud or get a flat tire - once we're pulled out or change that tire, as far as the world is concerned it never happened.

And that's not even all of it. On this site not long ago somebody posted a video from a few years back where a chaser en route to intercept some storm activity had his car completely totaled by debris from a passing truck which was unrelated to the storm he was on the way to. Do we call that a chasing accident? He was in his car, driving, on the way toward storm activity. As a chaser, he would've remained in that car, still driving, with no tangible, recognizable transition - but where does "on the way to the chase" end and "the chase" begin? A certain proximity? A certain time? Some other condition? In order to avoid adding to "the danger of chasing", we can fudge that line in either direction to best suit our biases.

I don't think it's actually fair to make so many declarations about the safety of storm chasing, whose various incidents and accidents are never actually reported to some central body that keeps track, compared to other regulated activities wherein every slight incident is recorded and tallied up.
 
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..(B)ut in a sense, storm chasing is exactly like that. The entire "hobby" consists of driving on surface roads, an activity which is already entirely subject to very strict state and local regulation - contrary to some chaser's demonstrated behavior, there are stated limits to speed, lane use, vehicle attitude and safety, and so forth, which no other law absolves chasers from following just because they're "chasing". Indeed, if storm chasing is ever directly legislated against, it would most likely be in the form of additions to the traffic code rather than new stand-alone laws.

This is really reaching. You have to clock hours, go through fairly extensive training and do plenty of guided jumps before you can go solo in skydiving. With storm chasing, you don't have to do any of that. None. You can literally just jump in your vehicle with your iPhone and, voila, you're a chaser. Saying that storm chasing is just as regulated as skydiving is ridiculous.
 
This is really reaching. You have to clock hours, go through fairly extensive training and do plenty of guided jumps before you can go solo in skydiving. With storm chasing, you don't have to do any of that. None. You can literally just jump in your vehicle with your iPhone and, voila, you're a chaser. Saying that storm chasing is just as regulated as skydiving is ridiculous.

You need a driver license, don't you? There's educational and practice requirements for that, and they count. Since the physical act of storm chasing is entirely driving, I'd call that relevant.

At any rate, the first sentence of my post was

...storm chasing truthfully is more heavily regulated by the government than any of these outside of perhaps skydiving.
 
I hope I did not quote anybody. It has been my first post here in many years. I have been chasing for 20 years, and this incident has

really stirred some strong emotions. First I wanna pay condolences to those that perished in the storm. I did not know them personally, but

know of them since I chase as well. Many of the videos I have seen in which vehicles got hit or rolled due to the tornado, made some bad

choices in my opinion. I am not here to lecture on that though, you guys have beat on that topic enough.

There has been a lot of discussion on the storm's changing motion, and I would like to discuss that more. Many papers have been written describing the path a tornado takes with its parent meso

cyclone. I would encourage all of you to read it or at least peruse the diagrams. It increased my knowledge, therfore, my

safety. True when you look at a broad view map of tornado tracks they all are straight lines generally easterly and northeasterly. This

track has little meaning when you are <1 mile from the tornado.

Tornadoes are a smaller circulation of a much larger circulation, meso. A more simplified view is a moving merry go round. Lets say that

the merry go round (mesocyclone) is 5 miles wide and moving northeast. You, riding on mans largest merry go round in the history of merry go

rounds, are the wall cloud. You extend a piece of chalk(tornado) to the ground and record your path as you go around. The path will

generally be an S curve. The S will not be thr ones we all learned to write in kindergarten of course. You science and math majors out

there would call them sin waves, or osscillations. Another synoptic example, would be the surface low(chalk), the short wave (you), and the

upper level low(merry go round).

After perusing the above paper, and paying attention to my surroundings when observing a tornado, it really helped with my positioning around

tornadoes. This information is particularly important when you are <1 mile of the tornado. Even if being under the meso is not your thing,

it can definitely help increase your oppurtunity of a beautiful pic/video.

I am sharing this information to help chasers have a better understanding of the motions they observe. Whether from 3 miles away, or a half

mile away, understanding tornadoes' motions is half the battle. Stormtrack has always been a great conduit of information for the

meteorlogical community. In light of the recent events, more information needs to be shared on how and why we chase the way we do. The

information may save the reader's life.​
 
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