This is unacceptable.

[Douglas Mitchell]

While everyone else seems to be jumping on this bandwagon of praise for the "new" Stormtrack, I refuse to believe that restricting access to ST is somehow a "good thing". As a matter of fact, I think this is the worst thing to happen to ST, ever. Sure, I agree with the restructuring efforts, as I was unable to resist the tempetation of engaging in the flame wars on EE, and to the EE forum, I say "Good Riddance." It's nice to have a clean slate.

But it's an insult, a slap in the face and a kick in the groin to have this rule not only stand, but to have it widely supported.

You're running down the path of death when you start trying to differentiate between a chaser and an enthusiast. Even in the thread prior to ST's restructuring, a fight broke out between two widely-known chasers, over the definition of a chaser. Yet, now we're trying to restrict membership based on a definition that no one can agree on. So great, you start giving genuine enthusiasts, future chasers, and other people who can not chase for what ever reasons the big old boot.

So while all these "chasers" bicker and complain about the degradation of the ST forum, they somehow create a strawman about these "non-chasers" and beat the hell out of it. Problem is, from my observations, most of the drama and fighting on ST has been from the actual "chasers" themselves!!! MROB, Karen/Kiel/Kevin vs. May 21st, and the Billy Griffin incident, perhaps the 3 biggest dramas on ST in the past year, have all involved "chasers", not some strawman non-chasers. I fought on the EE threads with Craig Maire and Chris Hayes, all of us chasers. I was even mocked by Chris Sokol, a MODERATOR on this board. So, if everyone would PLEASE step down from this "chaser uber alles" pedestal and realize that the non-chasers contribute a lot to the forum as well. Simon Lussardi comes to mind, just off the top of my head.

And then there's the outcry for a "return to ST's roots", whatever that means. As far as I can tell, you didn't need to be a chaser to subscribe to the ST Magazine. This is nothing more than a empty, hollow nostalgic cry for a time that never existed.

Regardless if you like to elevate yourself to this "Super stormchaser" position, remember this: We are ALL weather weenies at heart, and at one time, you were nothing more than that. You weren't born chasing storms. I wouldn't have been allowed on this board based on this new restriction a mere 2-3 years ago. And I find it ironic that the leader of this anti-newbie crusade, Nick Grillo, has not driven a single mile storm chasing. Not a personal attack, just a fact.

You want to know what to do? Infuse a backbone into the mods and clean up these "posts" and hand out consequences to those who abuse the rules, but for the love of all things holy, don't don't don't restrict access to those who benefit from participation. [/i]

 

[Jeff Snyder]

And then there's the outcry for a "return to ST's roots", whatever that means. As far as I can tell, you didn't need to be a chaser to subscribe to the ST Magazine. This is nothing more than a empty, hollow nostalgic cry for a time that never existed.

Yes, you didn't need to be a chaser to read the publication, just as you don't need to be a chaser (or a member) to read Stormtrack discussions. As it is now, all members of the public can view and read stormtrack discussions, posts, threads, etc. How many stories did you read in the old ST publications from non-chasers? I don't have a opinion one way or the other right now, but it's not like non-chasers can't even read and learn from discussions. A focus on storm chasing in the membership doesn't prevent non-members from learning, just as it didn't prevent non-chasers from learning when ST was a publication.

 

[jaybarnsmith]

What you'll find and what I failed to notice before is the fact that once a chaser is accused of doing something bad they will quickly be reclassified as a 'non-chaser'. This was rather clear from what ive heard of the MROB deal and the Billy Griffin event.

As for the definition of storm chasers, it will end up having to be very close to that of the standard weather weenies. If its not you end up with a huge problem of being able to verify that infact someone is a chaser. Joe Troll is just going to make up some lame stories and get membership. The real person who enjoys weather and has something of value to say isn't going to post.

It remains to be seem how the new moderators play out, hopefully they can be a big part of keeping the forum clean. I have strong feelings on all of this however for now I think a wait and see approach is best.

I stand by what I said in the other post that the people here need to learn how to look past the fact that someone insulted them on the internet. Or the fact that someone had some fun at the expense of someone else because they made a bad forecast. If everyone was more concerned about having a good time and chasing storms while being less concerned about how they come out looking at the end of the day then the old forum would have worked just fine.

 

[Douglas Mitchell]

But certainly you must recognize that *participation* is also key. The ability to ask questions, give input from outside the chasing world (yes, such a thing exists!!!), and post images from events that were not viewed by storm chasers. The abusive, attacking, fluff-posting "non-chaser" strawman still lives...

 

[Darin Brunin]

I back you 100% Doug. It's funny to see the people who were fighting the "elite" forum turn around and say that they want to cut off people from joining Stormtrack who don't have the "credentials". Is that not "elitism" in itself? I am not picking on Nick Grillo but what would he have done when he was 13-14 and someone told him that he did not belong here. Nick may have slipped by but there will be many young chasers just like Nick who will be shunned away if this is allowed to continue.

Sure....restricting access to Stormtrack might make the forum more clean but it's only going to make the roads around a supercell a lot more dirty. Newbie chasers look up to experienced chasers in a lot of ways. For every post that an experienced chaser puts up I would bet that a couple newbies are reading and studying it to get better. If there is restricted access this is only going to make the learning process for newbie chasers last that much longer.

Was there really anything wrong with the way that the old forum was? And what is changing the titles of the sections of the forum going to do to make it better? Tougher moderation?.....maybe for a while but then Stormtrack will return to its old self.

For any of you who think you don't belong any more because of certain new "guidelines".....there is a great forum where people will greet you will open arms, they will answer any question that you may have without hesitation, and they sure as hell won't slam you for being a newbie chaser. Go here http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=10550

Change isn't always a good thing....
Darin

 

[Douglas Mitchell]

I back you 100% Doug. It's funny to see the people who were fighting the "elite" forum turn around and say that they want to cut off people from joining Stormtrack who don't have the "credentials". Is that not "elitism" in itself? I am not picking on Nick Grillo but what would he have done when he was 13-14 and someone told him that he did not belong here. Nick may have slipped by but there will be many young chasers just like Nick who will be shunned away if this is allowed to continue.

Sure....restricting access to Stormtrack might make the forum more clean but it's only going to make the roads around a supercell a lot more dirty. Newbie chasers look up to experienced chasers in a lot of ways. For every post that an experienced chaser puts up I would bet that a couple newbies are reading and studying it to get better. If there is restricted access this is only going to make the learning process for newbie chasers last that much longer.

Was there really anything wrong with the way that the old forum was? And what is changing the titles of the sections of the forum going to do to make it better? Tougher moderation?.....maybe for a while but then Stormtrack will return to its old self.

For any of you who think you don't belong any more because of certain new "guidelines".....there is a great forum where people will greet you will open arms, they will answer any question that you may have without hesitation, and they sure as hell won't slam you for being a newbie chaser. Go here http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=10550

Change isn't always a good thing....
Darin

The chasing world is an extremely intimidating world, I know from *personal experience*. I was lucky enough to have parents who were able to afford a chase tour for me. And to think that you want to give all these kids who don't have the same opportunities I did a big ol' metaphorical middle finger just because of some "feel good" effort to clean up garbage that was primarily caused by chasers themselves, well, that just reeks of elitism. If ST wants to embrace this image, you can wallow in your shallow world of "chaser pride". Just remember this, the REAL world doesn't give a rats about storm chasing, start living in it.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Well I can't believe I'm actually still posting about this ... lol. I had just about come to the conclusion that my public posting days were spent. But I think some of the problems we're actually seeing here is probably just a shifting of the focus in ST from one generation to the next. It's not a bad thing. I don't think anyone looks down on newer chasers - I know I'm glad to see new blood around town and its been refreshing for me to get to know people like Doug and Darin both.

At the same time, there may be kind of a new generation gap showing up, I'm not really sure how to define it. Don't want to over-analyze here, but there's a group of chasers who started in the 70s and 80s who became friends and trust each other and still stick together today. I know I don't personally fit in with that group ... I wouldn't even know where to start or what to say. There's another group that started in the 90s who I think might be beginning to evolve into a peer group similar to the generation before them. There's another post millenium group who are also now making their own way, and after them we'll see the next generation.

But it's kind of like sticking with your former classmates or the folks you start college with ... most people don't naturally become tight friends with the following generation. You don't view the next generation as negative, you just hang with the people you are familiar with. You have the choice to either spend a lot of time helping someone make progress, or you could concentrate your efforts on continuing to make your own progress - it's just a judgment call each person has to make for themselves. For some folks, helping the next generation is seen as a noble pursuit and an obligation to pass the torch - that's not a bad way of looking at it, really. At the same time, I also can't personally see it as a selfish thing when people choose instead to move ahead within the confines of their own peer group ... it's the human way to keep climbing and not look back. Hopefully that makes sense. I don't really have the answer here ... maybe ST should remain open and free to each new generation so that they can have a place to start somewhere. But I do still feel pretty strongly about this ... that ST is for storm chasers and not every brand of weather weenie out there. There are hundreds of boards that cater to weather. Stormtrack was intended and designed from the start with chasers in mind. Sorry if anyone else sees it differently - but that is indeed the history of this organization. ST is a great all-around resource for weather, but that is because chasers made it that way. ST was built by people who go out and sit under supercells.

At the same time none of us really have the right to call anyone down who choose otherwise and seek the association of those who they have been working with for a long time. It's a personal choice and I have trouble making a judgment on either direction a person ultimately decides to take in the matter.

 

[Scott Olson]

I agree with Mike here. Stormtrack was never meant to be a forum for people who were just simply interested in weather. Granted im sure there are alot of people on this forum who don't chase but have contributed many articles, questions, etc. And thats great but in the end Stormtrack was created with one thing in mind and thats to bring people together who chase storms in order to form a community and pass knowledge/strategy/etc. This is not saying that the non-chasers are the reason for all the noise or weren't contributing anything. Thats just not true! There is no intention of trying to create an elitism. Stormtrack was always intended for Storm Chasers but others were allowed to participate. That part has changed for now and it's not clear exactly whether that is going to say or whether the Admin just needs some time to get things under control before we start accepting users again.

-Scott Olson

 

[Jason_Politte]

This is unacceptable?? IMO, the only thing unacceptable is that it apparently can't be said enough by the VERY vocal minority that they don't like the changes. It just goes on and on and on. Is it not enough to say one's peace, let your voice be heard, and continue posting and contributing to interesting threads.

Was I vocal about what I considered to be the degredation of Storm Track during it's last life? Yes, I, in collaboration with Scott Blair, wrote about it in an editorial (see http://www.onthefront.ws/sc2003.htm), and yes, I did bring it up occasionally within site discussion, most notably in the discussion regarding the Hall of Flames. But one thing I did not do was come here on a forum and site owned by Tim Vasquez and continuously whine about it. I stayed away from what I disliked about ST and posted to threads that piqued my interest.

IMO, Jeff Snyder hit the nail on the head in his reply. Newbies are not discouraged from learning from ST - they are free to peruse the board and learn from what's posted here. There are an immense number of sources to learn from on the internet regarding storm chasing and meteorology. All one has to do is a bit of research, and that, as far as I'm concerned, is the best way to learn. I do not believe that those new to chasing should be discouraged from joining ST, but they should at the very least be out there chasing.

Jason

 

[Bill Hamilton]

I would have to agree with Mike on this topic as well. In everything we do we look for others who have had the same life experiences and tend to stay close to them.
I also know that I wouldn't mind having some of the younger members around as well. Chris Sanner and Nick Grillo (even as obnoxious as he has been in the past :wink: ) are a couple of chasers who hold the passion that veteran chasers have.
Yes, there is a generation gap but most of us can learn from either side.

 

[Bill Tabor]

I think you guys are missing the point. This is not about 'elitism' it's about having a focused forum and low 'signal to noise ratio'.

Read some of my thoughts here: http://stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?...t=7776&start=15

They aren't trying to kick out or prevent newbie chasers or those interested in becoming chasers. Only various folks on the internet that are non-chase interested that just happen to spend all their time in EE type areas, and possibly cause problems elsewhere with out really being chase centered in the first place.

If this is a forum for chasing, and chasers and everything chase related then why spend extra resources maintaining folks that could care less about chasing and have nothing to contribute but problems?

I'm not in charge of membership but I'd personally allow anyone that has an interest in chasing in some form or fashion at some level of membership.

Anyway that's why the concentration on how much people post in Everything Else versus chase related topics.

People aren't even going to get kicked out if they are interested in chase topics and contribute something useful and make a good attempt.

 

[Chris Sokol]

I was even mocked by Chris Sokol, a MODERATOR on this board.

No sir, you were not. The comment that you are refering to was meant in all sincerity. If you felt that the only reason that I made it was to mock you, then for that (and only that), I apologize. If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to do so in PM, as I will not discuss this further on the board.

 

[Douglas Mitchell]

1. Accept anyone with a genuine interest in storms

2. Weed out your abusers with more aggressive modding.

3. Quit placing blame on "non-chasers" for "old" ST's problems.

4. Recognize drama created by "chasers" was real reason for ST restructuring.

5. Have a couple drinks.

 

[Scott Olson]

1. Accept anyone with a genuine interest in storms

2. Weed out your abusers with more aggressive modding.

3. Quit placing blame on "non-chasers" for "old" ST's problems.

4. Recognize drama created by "chasers" was real reason for ST restructuring.

5. Have a couple drinks.

I never remember chasers blaming non-chasers for the problems. All the problems were forum wide and the reason for restricting the membership to active chasers was because that is the orignal intention of Stormtrack.

 

[Douglas Mitchell]

It would be a tragedy to have, IMO, the number one resource for both storm chasers and storm enthusiasts alike to turn the cold shoulder to those who wish to participate fairly. I am basing this off my own personal experience, I would've KILLED to be able to interact with storm chasers at a much younger age, rather than peruse my TVC tapes till they died. Sure, allow them to "view" the forums, but you might as well be telling these people to f*** off if you're not going to allow them to ask legitimate questions, post legitimate pictures or even let them attempt to find someone to bring them chasing for the first time.

The answer is more agressive modding, NOT excluding others.