This is unacceptable.

  • Thread starter Douglas Mitchell
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Douglas Mitchell

While everyone else seems to be jumping on this bandwagon of praise for the "new" Stormtrack, I refuse to believe that restricting access to ST is somehow a "good thing". As a matter of fact, I think this is the worst thing to happen to ST, ever. Sure, I agree with the restructuring efforts, as I was unable to resist the tempetation of engaging in the flame wars on EE, and to the EE forum, I say "Good Riddance." It's nice to have a clean slate.

But it's an insult, a slap in the face and a kick in the groin to have this rule not only stand, but to have it widely supported.

You're running down the path of death when you start trying to differentiate between a chaser and an enthusiast. Even in the thread prior to ST's restructuring, a fight broke out between two widely-known chasers, over the definition of a chaser. Yet, now we're trying to restrict membership based on a definition that no one can agree on. So great, you start giving genuine enthusiasts, future chasers, and other people who can not chase for what ever reasons the big old boot.

So while all these "chasers" bicker and complain about the degradation of the ST forum, they somehow create a strawman about these "non-chasers" and beat the hell out of it. Problem is, from my observations, most of the drama and fighting on ST has been from the actual "chasers" themselves!!! MROB, Karen/Kiel/Kevin vs. May 21st, and the Billy Griffin incident, perhaps the 3 biggest dramas on ST in the past year, have all involved "chasers", not some strawman non-chasers. I fought on the EE threads with Craig Maire and Chris Hayes, all of us chasers. I was even mocked by Chris Sokol, a MODERATOR on this board. So, if everyone would PLEASE step down from this "chaser uber alles" pedestal and realize that the non-chasers contribute a lot to the forum as well. Simon Lussardi comes to mind, just off the top of my head.

And then there's the outcry for a "return to ST's roots", whatever that means. As far as I can tell, you didn't need to be a chaser to subscribe to the ST Magazine. This is nothing more than a empty, hollow nostalgic cry for a time that never existed.

Regardless if you like to elevate yourself to this "Super stormchaser" position, remember this: We are ALL weather weenies at heart, and at one time, you were nothing more than that. You weren't born chasing storms. I wouldn't have been allowed on this board based on this new restriction a mere 2-3 years ago. And I find it ironic that the leader of this anti-newbie crusade, Nick Grillo, has not driven a single mile storm chasing. Not a personal attack, just a fact.

You want to know what to do? Infuse a backbone into the mods and clean up these "posts" and hand out consequences to those who abuse the rules, but for the love of all things holy, don't don't don't restrict access to those who benefit from participation. [/i]
 
And then there's the outcry for a "return to ST's roots", whatever that means. As far as I can tell, you didn't need to be a chaser to subscribe to the ST Magazine. This is nothing more than a empty, hollow nostalgic cry for a time that never existed.

Yes, you didn't need to be a chaser to read the publication, just as you don't need to be a chaser (or a member) to read Stormtrack discussions. As it is now, all members of the public can view and read stormtrack discussions, posts, threads, etc. How many stories did you read in the old ST publications from non-chasers? I don't have a opinion one way or the other right now, but it's not like non-chasers can't even read and learn from discussions. A focus on storm chasing in the membership doesn't prevent non-members from learning, just as it didn't prevent non-chasers from learning when ST was a publication.
 
What you'll find and what I failed to notice before is the fact that once a chaser is accused of doing something bad they will quickly be reclassified as a 'non-chaser'. This was rather clear from what ive heard of the MROB deal and the Billy Griffin event.

As for the definition of storm chasers, it will end up having to be very close to that of the standard weather weenies. If its not you end up with a huge problem of being able to verify that infact someone is a chaser. Joe Troll is just going to make up some lame stories and get membership. The real person who enjoys weather and has something of value to say isn't going to post.

It remains to be seem how the new moderators play out, hopefully they can be a big part of keeping the forum clean. I have strong feelings on all of this however for now I think a wait and see approach is best.

I stand by what I said in the other post that the people here need to learn how to look past the fact that someone insulted them on the internet. Or the fact that someone had some fun at the expense of someone else because they made a bad forecast. If everyone was more concerned about having a good time and chasing storms while being less concerned about how they come out looking at the end of the day then the old forum would have worked just fine.
 
But certainly you must recognize that *participation* is also key. The ability to ask questions, give input from outside the chasing world (yes, such a thing exists!!!), and post images from events that were not viewed by storm chasers. The abusive, attacking, fluff-posting "non-chaser" strawman still lives...
 
I back you 100% Doug. It's funny to see the people who were fighting the "elite" forum turn around and say that they want to cut off people from joining Stormtrack who don't have the "credentials". Is that not "elitism" in itself? I am not picking on Nick Grillo but what would he have done when he was 13-14 and someone told him that he did not belong here. Nick may have slipped by but there will be many young chasers just like Nick who will be shunned away if this is allowed to continue.

Sure....restricting access to Stormtrack might make the forum more clean but it's only going to make the roads around a supercell a lot more dirty. Newbie chasers look up to experienced chasers in a lot of ways. For every post that an experienced chaser puts up I would bet that a couple newbies are reading and studying it to get better. If there is restricted access this is only going to make the learning process for newbie chasers last that much longer.

Was there really anything wrong with the way that the old forum was? And what is changing the titles of the sections of the forum going to do to make it better? Tougher moderation?.....maybe for a while but then Stormtrack will return to its old self.

For any of you who think you don't belong any more because of certain new "guidelines".....there is a great forum where people will greet you will open arms, they will answer any question that you may have without hesitation, and they sure as hell won't slam you for being a newbie chaser. Go here http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=10550

Change isn't always a good thing....
Darin
 
I back you 100% Doug. It's funny to see the people who were fighting the "elite" forum turn around and say that they want to cut off people from joining Stormtrack who don't have the "credentials". Is that not "elitism" in itself? I am not picking on Nick Grillo but what would he have done when he was 13-14 and someone told him that he did not belong here. Nick may have slipped by but there will be many young chasers just like Nick who will be shunned away if this is allowed to continue.

Sure....restricting access to Stormtrack might make the forum more clean but it's only going to make the roads around a supercell a lot more dirty. Newbie chasers look up to experienced chasers in a lot of ways. For every post that an experienced chaser puts up I would bet that a couple newbies are reading and studying it to get better. If there is restricted access this is only going to make the learning process for newbie chasers last that much longer.

Was there really anything wrong with the way that the old forum was? And what is changing the titles of the sections of the forum going to do to make it better? Tougher moderation?.....maybe for a while but then Stormtrack will return to its old self.

For any of you who think you don't belong any more because of certain new "guidelines".....there is a great forum where people will greet you will open arms, they will answer any question that you may have without hesitation, and they sure as hell won't slam you for being a newbie chaser. Go here http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=10550

Change isn't always a good thing....
Darin

The chasing world is an extremely intimidating world, I know from *personal experience*. I was lucky enough to have parents who were able to afford a chase tour for me. And to think that you want to give all these kids who don't have the same opportunities I did a big ol' metaphorical middle finger just because of some "feel good" effort to clean up garbage that was primarily caused by chasers themselves, well, that just reeks of elitism. If ST wants to embrace this image, you can wallow in your shallow world of "chaser pride". Just remember this, the REAL world doesn't give a rats about storm chasing, start living in it.
 
Well I can't believe I'm actually still posting about this ... lol. I had just about come to the conclusion that my public posting days were spent. But I think some of the problems we're actually seeing here is probably just a shifting of the focus in ST from one generation to the next. It's not a bad thing. I don't think anyone looks down on newer chasers - I know I'm glad to see new blood around town and its been refreshing for me to get to know people like Doug and Darin both.

At the same time, there may be kind of a new generation gap showing up, I'm not really sure how to define it. Don't want to over-analyze here, but there's a group of chasers who started in the 70s and 80s who became friends and trust each other and still stick together today. I know I don't personally fit in with that group ... I wouldn't even know where to start or what to say. There's another group that started in the 90s who I think might be beginning to evolve into a peer group similar to the generation before them. There's another post millenium group who are also now making their own way, and after them we'll see the next generation.

But it's kind of like sticking with your former classmates or the folks you start college with ... most people don't naturally become tight friends with the following generation. You don't view the next generation as negative, you just hang with the people you are familiar with. You have the choice to either spend a lot of time helping someone make progress, or you could concentrate your efforts on continuing to make your own progress - it's just a judgment call each person has to make for themselves. For some folks, helping the next generation is seen as a noble pursuit and an obligation to pass the torch - that's not a bad way of looking at it, really. At the same time, I also can't personally see it as a selfish thing when people choose instead to move ahead within the confines of their own peer group ... it's the human way to keep climbing and not look back. Hopefully that makes sense. I don't really have the answer here ... maybe ST should remain open and free to each new generation so that they can have a place to start somewhere. But I do still feel pretty strongly about this ... that ST is for storm chasers and not every brand of weather weenie out there. There are hundreds of boards that cater to weather. Stormtrack was intended and designed from the start with chasers in mind. Sorry if anyone else sees it differently - but that is indeed the history of this organization. ST is a great all-around resource for weather, but that is because chasers made it that way. ST was built by people who go out and sit under supercells.

At the same time none of us really have the right to call anyone down who choose otherwise and seek the association of those who they have been working with for a long time. It's a personal choice and I have trouble making a judgment on either direction a person ultimately decides to take in the matter.
 
I agree with Mike here. Stormtrack was never meant to be a forum for people who were just simply interested in weather. Granted im sure there are alot of people on this forum who don't chase but have contributed many articles, questions, etc. And thats great but in the end Stormtrack was created with one thing in mind and thats to bring people together who chase storms in order to form a community and pass knowledge/strategy/etc. This is not saying that the non-chasers are the reason for all the noise or weren't contributing anything. Thats just not true! There is no intention of trying to create an elitism. Stormtrack was always intended for Storm Chasers but others were allowed to participate. That part has changed for now and it's not clear exactly whether that is going to say or whether the Admin just needs some time to get things under control before we start accepting users again.

-Scott Olson
 
This is unacceptable?? IMO, the only thing unacceptable is that it apparently can't be said enough by the VERY vocal minority that they don't like the changes. It just goes on and on and on. Is it not enough to say one's peace, let your voice be heard, and continue posting and contributing to interesting threads.

Was I vocal about what I considered to be the degredation of Storm Track during it's last life? Yes, I, in collaboration with Scott Blair, wrote about it in an editorial (see http://www.onthefront.ws/sc2003.htm), and yes, I did bring it up occasionally within site discussion, most notably in the discussion regarding the Hall of Flames. But one thing I did not do was come here on a forum and site owned by Tim Vasquez and continuously whine about it. I stayed away from what I disliked about ST and posted to threads that piqued my interest.

IMO, Jeff Snyder hit the nail on the head in his reply. Newbies are not discouraged from learning from ST - they are free to peruse the board and learn from what's posted here. There are an immense number of sources to learn from on the internet regarding storm chasing and meteorology. All one has to do is a bit of research, and that, as far as I'm concerned, is the best way to learn. I do not believe that those new to chasing should be discouraged from joining ST, but they should at the very least be out there chasing.

Jason
 
I would have to agree with Mike on this topic as well. In everything we do we look for others who have had the same life experiences and tend to stay close to them.
I also know that I wouldn't mind having some of the younger members around as well. Chris Sanner and Nick Grillo (even as obnoxious as he has been in the past :wink: ) are a couple of chasers who hold the passion that veteran chasers have.
Yes, there is a generation gap but most of us can learn from either side.
 
I think you guys are missing the point. This is not about 'elitism' it's about having a focused forum and low 'signal to noise ratio'.

Read some of my thoughts here: http://stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?...t=7776&start=15

They aren't trying to kick out or prevent newbie chasers or those interested in becoming chasers. Only various folks on the internet that are non-chase interested that just happen to spend all their time in EE type areas, and possibly cause problems elsewhere with out really being chase centered in the first place.

If this is a forum for chasing, and chasers and everything chase related then why spend extra resources maintaining folks that could care less about chasing and have nothing to contribute but problems?

I'm not in charge of membership but I'd personally allow anyone that has an interest in chasing in some form or fashion at some level of membership.

Anyway that's why the concentration on how much people post in Everything Else versus chase related topics.

People aren't even going to get kicked out if they are interested in chase topics and contribute something useful and make a good attempt.
 
I was even mocked by Chris Sokol, a MODERATOR on this board.

No sir, you were not. The comment that you are refering to was meant in all sincerity. If you felt that the only reason that I made it was to mock you, then for that (and only that), I apologize. If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to do so in PM, as I will not discuss this further on the board.
 
1. Accept anyone with a genuine interest in storms

2. Weed out your abusers with more aggressive modding.

3. Quit placing blame on "non-chasers" for "old" ST's problems.

4. Recognize drama created by "chasers" was real reason for ST restructuring.

5. Have a couple drinks.
 
1. Accept anyone with a genuine interest in storms

2. Weed out your abusers with more aggressive modding.

3. Quit placing blame on "non-chasers" for "old" ST's problems.

4. Recognize drama created by "chasers" was real reason for ST restructuring.

5. Have a couple drinks.
I never remember chasers blaming non-chasers for the problems. All the problems were forum wide and the reason for restricting the membership to active chasers was because that is the orignal intention of Stormtrack.
 
It would be a tragedy to have, IMO, the number one resource for both storm chasers and storm enthusiasts alike to turn the cold shoulder to those who wish to participate fairly. I am basing this off my own personal experience, I would've KILLED to be able to interact with storm chasers at a much younger age, rather than peruse my TVC tapes till they died. Sure, allow them to "view" the forums, but you might as well be telling these people to f*** off if you're not going to allow them to ask legitimate questions, post legitimate pictures or even let them attempt to find someone to bring them chasing for the first time.

The answer is more agressive modding, NOT excluding others.
 
Stormtrack x2
serving chasers since 1977

I don't see enthusiasts in there... hmph. I'm all for keeping users who can contribute or show dedication to the hobby of storm chasing. You might not be a storm chaser, but if you can discuss/write articles about chasing (latest techology, anayzing data for chasing, etc.) then sure... come on in.

If you're just interested in storms... go ahead and read ST and go post on wright-weather or storm2k.

Just my two cents.

Aaron
 
I agree with Aaron... If these people can't contribute, then why do they need to be here? Most of the information people would ask here can be found on the internet, as the internet is the worlds largest and most amended "book" available. If they don't want to search for it, then that just means they don't care enough to learn about it. All of my meteorological experience and learning came via the internet, and if it worked for me, it will work for others. I guess if it is REALLY wanted, Tim V. could just setup a single forum that is write accessable to newbies, while keeping all of the other forums locked... That way they could still ask questions, but not interfere with anything else.

The things I'm not understanding though, is how one will prove that:

1) They are a chaser or;
2) They have meteorological experience...

I certainly couldn't produce a meteorological background check, as I learned everything from the internet... And, I don't have many photos online. My photos are all printed and personal use only - so would I be left out?
 
A substantial number of serious and old-tyme stormchasers cannot drink for one reason or another, Doug! :wink: So I must take definite exception with #5!

More seriously, I expect there'll end up being some tweaking about what is and isn't a non-chasing thread or post. IMO for example there are already several threads in B&G that don't belong there. There's also a worthwhile discussion to be had between younguns or newbies and oldsters and gurus about the difference between the sort of joshing and criticism that comes from basic affection and the desire to teach, and put-downs or jealousy. Sometimes the difference doesn't translate very well in print.
 
And ST wasn't catering to chasers before?

Give me a break, you're not taking about NOT serving chasers here...you're talking about ONLY serving chasers, a definition no one can agree on. And the forum isn't setup for just storm chasing related articles, there's still the "Bar and Grill" place.

Allow ST for all storm chasing and storm related posts.
 
Rob Dewey's question is good ... the way that the first online ST members got to know who was chasing and who wasn't came with time and seeing each other's reports and photos. You get to know after hearing the reports - even the bust reports - that people are actually out there doing it. And the meteorological stuff shows up along the way too ... people are usually stronger in one or the other of those two, and a few are even strong at both. The only other way to know for sure apart from hearing reports is if the person has an active website ... with photos, logs or both. Maybe we could start an organization to license and pass out official chase chase identification cards ... LOL ... time to shift the focus to another emotional topic.
 
Umm... would like to note that I have not given reports because I can't put my photos up. My scanner is in storage untill the start of school. Also, my website is not tailored to storm chasing, as I wish to keep it "artistic". Most of my weather photos are not of the quality I like, due to the style I wish to partake upon in photography. So this is why I do not feel we should "check up" on chasers to make sure they're chasing. Plus how do you define whether people are chasing enough. Some from other countries only can make it over to the plains for a week. Others may have more pressing matters for a season, and will resume later.

*edit* because I can't spell
 
The answer is more agressive modding, NOT excluding others.

Obviously you didn't read any of my posts on the subject.

Once again (as I see it) no one is being excluded as long as they have a focus on chasing. People currently under membership can still be members and post and contribute to chasing. If ratio is over 60% no B&G. If inactive then = kick. New members must show interest in chasing or be chasers. The appropriate mechanism for choosing new members as far as I know is yet to be determined; however I doubt Tim and Co would exclude people really interested in chasing from taking part.

This is only focusing the board on what it is supposed to be about - Chasing. If people have NO interest in chasing why should they be here?

The above is clear if you read the new mandatory instructions as far as I can tell. I won't repeat this again. We could cover this ground and repeat the same things over and over and never get anywhere or come to any conclusions. If you choose to disregard the obvious then as far as I can tell you are just trying to cause disruption and dissention. That is something the new Stormtrack is trying to avoid.
 
I think Bill is probably correct ... you don't need to prove your credentials, as long as you come with the sole intent of chase-talk. There are lots of folks in the same boat as Robert, I'm sure. If chasers decide if and when they would like to do anything different, that is now up to them. The point is pretty much moot now that ST has closed the private forum.
 
The answer is more agressive modding, NOT excluding others.

Obviously you didn't read any of my posts on the subject.

Once again (as I see it) no one is being excluded as long as they have a focus on chasing. People currently under membership can still be members and post and contribute to chasing. If ratio is over 60% no B&G. If inactive then = kick. New members must show interest in chasing or be chasers. The appropriate mechanism for choosing new members as far as I know is yet to be determined; however I doubt Tim and Co would exclude people really interested in chasing from taking part.

This is only focusing the board on what it is supposed to be about - Chasing. If people have NO interest in chasing why should they be here?

The above is clear if you read the new mandatory instructions as far as I can tell. I won't repeat this again. We could cover this ground and repeat the same things over and over and never get anywhere or come to any conclusions. If you choose to disregard the obvious then as far as I can tell you are just trying to cause disruption and dissention. That is something the new Stormtrack is trying to avoid.

As far as I see it, there are still several people that are gung-ho on the "chaser-only" membership requirement and its still written in the new rules that new members must be either active chasers or active mets. Still too strict...
 
Okay, I can't stand it - I have to chime in.
I believe the restructure is welcomed and long overdue. The new tougher requirements for entry, I agree, could affect the ability for new "chasers" or enthusiasts who are interested in chasing to interact with veteran chasers and learn.
My solution, if posting in the "Bar and Grill" and basically not contributing anything chase-worthy to the board is the primary reason our administrator has changed the requirements, is to simply adjust the % of posts ratio. Right now if we have more than 60% of our posts in "Bar and Grill" or what was "EE", we get our "Bar and Grill" posting privileges revoked. How about increasing that to ratio to 50/50 and seeing if that helps with participation on the actual chasing and forecasting side of things. If someone fails to post for a certain amount of time or if the account becomes dormant, that will be grounds for termination of the account and re-application will be required.
There are plenty of places on the internet to go talk about politics, current events and whatever other crap I have seen in EE in the past. Why make it a part of a storm chasing forum?
I'm done...
I'm no moderator but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
 
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