This is unacceptable.

[Mike Johnston]

Regarding the idea of an "avanced forum"....why not just have a section called "featured articles" and invite any of our more accomplished members to write a well thought out essay or article, much as would be expected of a magazine article? In this manner, it would clearly be 'read-only' - no need for replies, just an opportunity for members to read a feature work from some of the best and the brightest. Once you get into "secret" and "avanced", no doubt those kind of terms begin to sound off-putting to the general membership. So, an area like this wouldn't be a post board at all, it would be a distinctly separate area on the ST site with feature articles - maybe 5 or 6 a month - submitted to ST for publication and then viewable by any member.

To take some of the workload off of the administrator and moderators, perhaps we could establish some kind of editorial committee that would be responsible for selecting the articles each month to be published.

Hopefully, something like this would take us beyond the elites vs. newcomers conundrum. Face it, we do have elites, as does every field. So, rather than arguing incessantly over who shall be in which bushel basket, why not set up something where the elites can shine and others can appreciate and enjoy? Gives an opportunity for those who are more advanced to show their stuff to a wider community, instead of feeling like they need to cordon themselves off.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Sorry if any of the following sounds harsh or elitest or anything that anyone may possibly construe as negative to any party on the forum. I'm also sorry if I'm misinterpreting what is being said now ... feeling just a little burned out tonight - anyone else?

Here's the deal ... we DID have an advanced forum where people could post some detailed forecast and targeting information to the PUBLIC. The TA forum had restricted access but we didn't like that so we allowed anyone who asked to be able to post in there. Over the period of a year the TA posters with the track record of highest quality posts left. Some left because the 'advanced quality' forum had some issues. Again, some do not want to be associated with public forums any more. Some just don't have time to keep working up solutions to the chase forecast problem for everyone else to benefit from out there these days without lifting a finger themselves (this is WORK after all, and hardly what chasing is all about). So we made a private room where this minority group could still find a place of their own to enjoy. But this was elitest and wrong and hurtful, so that forum is now also gone in favor of the mass perspective on this issue.

So let me understand this ... now our problem-solving consists of creating a room with restricted access that can be highly moderated to encourage advanced posts? How many sides are there to this fence exactly? Welcome back to square one.

I see Kevin Scharfenberg's perspective here. This forum typically goes through a 'noise crisis' about every two to three years. In the past we have ultimately dealt with it by allowing people to just quietly leave and find another niche group that better suits their interests and needs. How about just doing that again ... Want to know one of the BIGGEST reasons that forum was kept private? Because there are 800 involved parties feeling like they are owed a democratic say in the process and there is simply no way to make everyone happy no matter how hard anyone tries.

Also, Stormtrack has tried copy-driven content in the past with contributors encouraged to write insightful articles for the front page. This also wears on people after a while and the responsibility of proper oversight becomes more of a burden in time. The quality in constantly providing this FREE PUBLIC SERVICE was also very difficult to maintain (there was actually a time when yours truly was about the only one providing front page copy a few years back ... yeah, you can imagine just how exciting THAT was - lol - fortunately for everyone it didn't last long). We found that the majority of people were simply bypassing the front page and coming straight in here anyway, so it was eliminated.

Good news though ... this will go away. Stormtrack should now be left alone to be as it always was. If anyone wants to try something different, they will be able to go out and do just that and stop worrying about all this. Overall I see this as a very good thing because it encourages more ST members to sharpen their skills now and start doing the work themselves if this is something they would like to see. This is your forum - make it what you want. By your own voice, you have made each individual in the entire forum responsible to become an 'advanced poster' - so it's time to get to work and start drumming up some advanced posts. We'll watch curiously to see how long it can last this time - - -

I propose that this thread should now be closed and the subject eliminated. No further amount of brainstorming will somehow make this circular logic somehow find a satisfactory conclusion.

 

[Rob_Davis]

Originally posted by Mike Peregrine
I propose that this thread should now be closed and the subject eliminated. No further amount of brainstorming will somehow make this circular logic somehow find a satisfactory conclusion.

Satisfactory to whom? Quite a few of us saw perfectly satisfactory solutions within this thread. :?

 

[Shane Adams]

Originally posted by Mike Peregrine
Some just don't have time to keep working up solutions to the chase forecast problem for everyone else to benefit from out there these days without lifting a finger themselves (this is WORK after all, and hardly what chasing is all about). So we made a private room where this minority group could still find a place of their own to enjoy. But this was elitest and wrong and hurtful, so that forum is now also gone in favor of the mass perspective on this issue.

That's the biggest crock of sh*t I've ever heard Mike. Don't sit there and pretend the Core was formed to "save the precious forecast work of the real chasers". The Core was formed because nothing short of pure meteorology was considered worth their time. The Core was formed because the "rest" of StormTrack wasn't good enough, and that group included a hell of a lot of damn good chasers.

What possible proof is there people were peruisng TA just to steal targets? Where's the dozens of no-name successful chase reports from the exact same locations as the "real chasers"? Better yet - I'd like a list of names of the all the people who stole forecasts off TA instead of creating their own. How would one go about assembling this list? Hmmm, maybe all the people who saw tornadoes but didn't pst a target choice to TA? RUBBISH. I hope you guys get your Core back, and go far far away to share your precious knowledge only within the confines of greatness.

Very interesting how, when the "general population" found out about the Core, they were criticized by the Core for their reaction - anger, hurt, mistrust. yet when the Core was taken away, it seems some of its members reacted much the same way - but say it's justified. This is consistent with some of the attitudes I saw on the inside of Core. As long as you're getting YOUR way, it's all good and diplomatic. But God forbid the Chosen not get what they want.

No hard feelings to any of the moderators for whatever consequences this post brings me. They're just doing their job, as I just broke about a dozen TOS rules. I fully understand. But if I am to be exiled, my exit was a grand one.

 

[Carla Bisby]

I've kept quiet on this "new" ST forum reorganization but now I have to speak. I echo everything Shane just said and everything Thomas Loades said earlier in his "One last bit of reorganizing" thread. I am not leaving ST (at least not right now) but I am already missing the fellowship I had with many great people on this site. :cry: :cry: I hope someone starts a site for all of those who preferred the "old" ST. Last year the site was great. It has gone downhill. I still come here because there really aren't any other weather forums of higher quality. Now there's nothing but division (the self-appointed elites not wanting to fellowship with us newbies (or lowlifes as they consider us). I imagine most of the kind and interesting members will leave the forum now and it will simply be those who are trying to one-up another on who's the best and who bagged the most twisters while they talk about how they're Masters of the Universe. The conceit, unkindness, and selfishness will drive a lot of people away. I'm saddened for the site and will miss talking with many people I've come to know and care about over the past year.

 

[Carrie Halliday]

Originally posted by Shane Adams+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shane Adams)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Mike Peregrine

Some just don't have time to keep working up solutions to the chase forecast problem for everyone else to benefit from out there these days without lifting a finger themselves (this is WORK after all, and hardly what chasing is all about). So we made a private room where this minority group could still find a place of their own to enjoy. But this was elitest and wrong and hurtful, so that forum is now also gone in favor of the mass perspective on this issue.

That's the biggest crock of sh*t I've ever heard Mike. Don't sit there and pretend the Core was formed to "save the precious forecast work of the real chasers". The Core was formed because nothing short of pure meteorology was considered worth their time. The Core was formed because the "rest" of StormTrack wasn't good enough, and that group included a hell of a lot of damn good chasers.

What possible proof is there people were peruisng TA just to steal targets? Where's the dozens of no-name successful chase reports from the exact same locations as the "real chasers"? Better yet - I'd like a list of names of the all the people who stole forecasts off TA instead of creating their own. How would one go about assembling this list? Hmmm, maybe all the people who saw tornadoes but didn't pst a target choice to TA? RUBBISH. I hope you guys get your Core back, and go far far away to share your precious knowledge only within the confines of greatness.

Very interesting how, when the "general population" found out about the Core, they were criticized by the Core for their reaction - anger, hurt, mistrust. yet when the Core was taken away, it seems some of its members reacted much the same way - but say it's justified. This is consistent with some of the attitudes I saw on the inside of Core. As long as you're getting YOUR way, it's all good and diplomatic. But God forbid the Chosen not get what they want.

No hard feelings to any of the moderators for whatever consequences this post brings me. They're just doing their job, as I just broke about a dozen TOS rules. I fully understand. But if I am to be exiled, my exit was a grand one.[/b]

**applause**

I was waiting for someone to have the cojones to say what they really feel. Shane was first, waiting to see what rebuttal he gets.
Frankly, all this talk of elite members and such takes me back to high school. I didn't partake then, nor will I now. But, it seems I don't have to worry about that as I am not part of the "inner circle".

I suspected that there was secret space for a select few, so now several want to purge the unwanted who do not meet the level of the chosen few so they can have their own personal forum? Last I heard (before the current change), Tim V. had folks turn in applications and a paper on what their background was in weather, and approved those that met his criteria. To me, that says that some didn't agree with Tim's decisions. Doubting the more-than-capable Admin? That is harsh!

I also am an original member of this forum, carried over from the old one. I think I am among the original 10 here. Should there be a secret association for this? Of course not, just like there should not be one for anyone else. Other measures could be taken, like pre approval to certain forums for posting privledges. There has to be a better answer than what is going on now.

 

[Robert Dewey]

Originally posted by Shane Adams+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shane Adams)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Mike Peregrine

Some just don't have time to keep working up solutions to the chase forecast problem for everyone else to benefit from out there these days without lifting a finger themselves (this is WORK after all, and hardly what chasing is all about). So we made a private room where this minority group could still find a place of their own to enjoy. But this was elitest and wrong and hurtful, so that forum is now also gone in favor of the mass perspective on this issue.

That's the biggest crock of sh*t I've ever heard Mike. Don't sit there and pretend the Core was formed to "save the precious forecast work of the real chasers". The Core was formed because nothing short of pure meteorology was considered worth their time. The Core was formed because the "rest" of StormTrack wasn't good enough, and that group included a hell of a lot of damn good chasers.

What possible proof is there people were peruisng TA just to steal targets? Where's the dozens of no-name successful chase reports from the exact same locations as the "real chasers"? Better yet - I'd like a list of names of the all the people who stole forecasts off TA instead of creating their own. How would one go about assembling this list? Hmmm, maybe all the people who saw tornadoes but didn't pst a target choice to TA? RUBBISH. I hope you guys get your Core back, and go far far away to share your precious knowledge only within the confines of greatness.

Very interesting how, when the "general population" found out about the Core, they were criticized by the Core for their reaction - anger, hurt, mistrust. yet when the Core was taken away, it seems some of its members reacted much the same way - but say it's justified. This is consistent with some of the attitudes I saw on the inside of Core. As long as you're getting YOUR way, it's all good and diplomatic. But God forbid the Chosen not get what they want.

No hard feelings to any of the moderators for whatever consequences this post brings me. They're just doing their job, as I just broke about a dozen TOS rules. I fully understand. But if I am to be exiled, my exit was a grand one.[/b]

Yes, I will second the applause Carrie gave!

 

[Aaron Kennedy]

THIS THREAD IS NOW LOCKED

Any further responses will be considered TOS violations.

 

[Robert Dewey]

EDIT: Removed entire post to comply with rules.

 

[Bill Tabor]

What is this 'core' everyone is talking about? Are you talking about the separate membership to Target Area that was created last year? If so I never knew this area was such as source of contention. Regardless see below...

Nick: I don't think so. I think it is a different type of area.

Mike J: Damn, you beat me to it. I'm talking an area not for chase forecasts, reports, or now - but a 'sponsored' area where featured technical posts can be presented of high caliber. I'm thinking this area should be protected and somehow people are asked or submit content to be placed there and only moderators or administrators can post the article. This would make a good resource. I think you could also have a separate area for other folks to comment and discuss the feature. I'm not sure if you would want to only have other 'advanced' people that would critique and discuss it (similar to CFDG), or if you would open that up to everyone. I think everyone (possibly even non members) should be able to view these articles and discussions though.

Mike P: I think you're off on a tangent (probably unusual for you). You're reacting to a Target Area core but we're talking about something else. Now, there may be problems with getting that content as you mention. That's another issue. However if you are talking about the front page of Stormtrack being done kind of as a news page - I used to love that where it had headlines of each event and pictures of some torns - possibly chase reports. Maybe this is something different? Not sure.

Shane: I don't know if anyone was ever stealing targets. I've heard of this happening on CFDG or at least people concerned about it. I know I've sometimes been reluctant to post my forecast and area just because I'm worried about chaser convergence. But I really don't know if it ever happens. On the other hand I like to share and discuss these things with other chasers. I sometimes look at others chase targets and their forecast ideas just simply to bounce it off mine. However I never just pick one of them and use it. If you've ever looked at the target area map showing where everyone is picking you'll see that targets are all over the place. People choose things for all sorts of different reasons. Sometimes this has to do with proximity to their home, sometimes they prefer the dryline for visibility, sometimes they are bad or good forecasters, sometimes because it is the center of SPC's area, etc. I like to go to an area for a reason that I am informed about.

Mike P: As for the mention of closing this thread...WHY? What's wrong with discussion and discourse for the sake of improvement. People need not be so thin skinned. It will be alright, no one's going to get sick or die from a few differing opinions. Actually that is the strength and beauty of this type of thing. We can make some great improvements...we do need to keep it civil though.

Edit after seeing lock:
Sorry, apparently it took so long to compile my post that I had no idea it was already locked by comment. What happened to the actual locking feature?

Anyway appears my last comment about closing the thread was in vain.

 

[Geoff Boyle]

edit, locked, sry.

 

[Tim Vasquez]

The moderators agreed to lock this thread, and I endorse their decision. This is because:

1) Stormtrack is not making any changes in the near-term, regardless of what is posted here;

2) the debate is not constructive: participants are reiterating their points ad nauseum and some of the posts are verging on hostility; and

3) we are not agreeable to heated debate about non-weather issues at this early stage; maybe later on but not now. Comments about the board are welcome but need to be constructive.

We also deleted the thread concerning a suspension/resignation because 1) the person is gone and they can't defend theirself here, 2) our administrative decisions are final, and 3) we have no intention of discussing internal matters on the open forums.

Tim