Should the terms waterspout, landspout etc be dropped?

[Willie Dines]

Martin, I don't know if you are aware of this, or if anyone else here may be aware of this, but TORRO has a classification for this occurance....

If a Tornado touches down on land, then crosses a river, lake, etc and dissipates over water, it should be filled in as TN - WS... Meaning that the tornado that the progressed to become a waterspout whilst on it's path, before disspiating.

If a Tornado touches down, and then were to have the same scenario, BUT, had stayed on the ground/lake surface, long enough to make landfall again before dissipating, then it would be classified as TN - WS - TN.

To me, that makes good sense, because it's similar to the idea of detailed EF damage ratings along a tornadoes path, and so, I don't see any reason why anyone should want to change something that works.

Willie

 

[scott r currens]

If a Tornado touches down on land, then crosses a river, lake, etc and dissipates over water, it should be filled in as TN - WS... Meaning that the tornado that the progressed to become a waterspout whilst on it's path, before disspiating.

If a Tornado touches down, and then were to have the same scenario, BUT, had stayed on the ground/lake surface, long enough to make landfall again before dissipating, then it would be classified as TN - WS - TN.

I think you are making the best argument for why we should drop the "surface of the earth" based tornado classifications. It is just silly and has no scientific significance. But if we have to classify tornadoes by what they hit then here are a few more that we need to add to the list.

From Doswell's site: A page of silly names for tornadoes

s**tspout
tornado in a feedlot

manurespout, fecalspout
tornado in a feedlot (p.c. version)

crapnado
tornado in a feedlot (alternative p.c. version)

gelderspout
tornado in a money-making feedlot in Holland

bucknado
tornado in a money-making feedlot in U.S. - or, tornado hitting a male deer

marknado
tornado in a money-making feedlot in Germany

francnado
tornado in a money-making feedlot in France

euronado
tornado in a money-making feedlot in EU

rublespout
tornado in a money-making feedlot in Russia

cornspout
tornado in a corn field

milospout
tornado in a milo field

wheatspout
tornado in a wheat field

cornado
tornado in a corn field (alternative)

dustnado
tornado in a dusty area

cheesenado
tornado hitting Monroe, WI

beanspout
tornado in a bean field

teaspout
tornado in a tea field

treespout
tornado in a forest

whorenado
tornado hitting a brothel

alfalfaspout
tornado in an alfalfa field

downspout
tornado hitting a flock of geese or ducks

ternado
tornado hitting a flock of terns

boarnado
tornado hitting a group of uncastrated adult male pigs

doornado
tornado hitting the entry point of your house

floornado
tornado after entering your home

nadnado
tornado that takes your reproductive organs

borenado
tornado hitting a typical TV commentator

bustnado
what you see on a busted storm chase

Brusselspout
tornado hitting the capital of Belgium

nadanado (zipnado, nilnado, zilchnado, etc.)
what you see on a busted storm chase (alternative)

RipTornado
tornado hitting a certain actor

Walterspout
tornado hitting a chaser named ... you guessed it

rubblespout
tornado passing over an earlier tornado's path

turnado
tornado hitting a curve in the road

tarnado
tornado hitting a freshly oiled road

firnado
tornado in a pine forest

pastanado
tornado hitting a spaghetti factory

pastornado
tornado hitting a Protestant church during the sermon

sproutspout
tornado hitting a health food store (or field of newly-germinated anything)

hallucinado
tornado touching down only in your mind

helinado
tornado hitting an Army airfield

Walnado
tornado hitting a Wal-Mart

Macnado
tornado hitting a MacDonald's

storenado
tornado cutting a swath through a business district

rectornao
tornado hitting an Anglican church during the sermon

rustnado
tornado hitting Gary, IN

disgustnado
tornado passing over a landfill

blandspout
tornado hitting hospital cafeteria (or any "family" restaurant)

stoutspout
tornado hitting Irish pub

Nadernado
tornado hitting a Green Party convention

hosernado
tornado hitting Toronto Maple Leafs hockey game, eh?

glandspout
tornado that removes your thyroid or pituitary or adrenal ...

flanspout
tornado passing over a fancy desert factory

bustnado (alternate)
tornado hitting a bra factory

Corpsnado
tornado hitting Marine base (or Texas A&M)

gyronado
tornado hitting Greek restaurant

Moorenado
tornado hitting Moore, OK (a remarkably common thing, of late)

orenado
tornado over a mine

shorenado
waterspout making landfall

ToraToraToranado
tornado hitting Pearl Harbor

tortenado
tornado hitting French bakery

tournado
tornado hitting all over the country

Torynado
tornado hitting conservative part of Parliament

Labournado
tornado hitting liberal part of Parliament

pornado
tornado hitting XXX adult bookstore

Toronado
tornado hitting lawn mower factory

forenado
tornado hitting a driving range

elandspout
tornado hitting a certain type of African ungulate

Moorenado (alternate)
tornado hitting a certain legendary storm chaser (has almost actually happened!)

Englandspout, Greenlandspout,Deutschlandspout, Finlandspout, etc.
tornadoes hitting the various "lands"

spousespout
tornado carrying away your wife-husband-significant other

tortnado
tornado hitting lawyer's office

dustnado
tornado hitting a dusty field

mustnado
a mandatory tornado

corenado
tornado hitting a pile of apples that have been eaten

Gorenado
tornado hitting a certain past candidate for President

morenado
a bigger, badder tornado

roarnado
a particularly loud tornado

yawnado
a boring tornado (a contradiction in terms!)

lawnado
tornado hitting manicured grass

brandspout
a commercial tornado

bandspout
tornado hitting a group of musicians

handspout
tornado that removes your hand

Randyspout
tornado hitting somone named ...

Wandaspout
tornado hitting a fish named ...

Yolandaspout
tornado hitting someone named ...

pandaspout
tornado hitting a certain bear species

udderspout
tornado removing a cow's means of dispensing milk

Here are a few of my own:

lilyspout
tornado crossing water covered in lilypads

hydrospout
tornado hitting a hydro-electric powerplant

liquorspout
tornado hitting an liquor store

 

[Martin North]

Scott is correct...this Earth surface stuff is nonsense.

You are looking at it. Is it a tornado or a waterspout...?

 

[Willie Dines]

I disagree, it can be as easy or as difficult as you like, it just depends on a person's perception of it, if I was to think that I would say, what is the point in having a damage scale at all??

It's the exact same principle, think about it, having a details damage survey map, of a tornadic damage path, is no different than having a a basic description of a tornadoes touchdown life cycle.

JMHO

Willie

 

[Bart_Comstock]

But how is the tornado its self different when over water or land when it is spawned by one of those (mythical uk ) supercells? A mesocyclonic tornado is a mesocyclonic tornado. I still hold that a tornado should be named for it's structure and not location of the point of contact to the surface of the earth. In the damage report you can mention the tornado moved over water or simply just map the path its self on a visible map but reserve the term waterspout for non-supercellular tornadoes. Not trying to shoot you down, just giving my two cents.

 

[Willie Dines]

I agree that difference between mesocyclonic and non-mesocyclonic do have slightly different circumstances to their development, but at the same time, there are plenty of non-mesocyclonic waterspouts that occur in the FL Keys every year, and so, I guess that some would consider them as land spouts over water, but at the same time, if a mesocyclonic funnel briefly touches down over a lake, only to dissipate before making landfall, to me, that is classification of being a waterspout

There is a classification that I would like to see being used, that seems to make the most sense.

Tornado - Mesocyclonic funnel that is spwaned from a Supercell Mesocyclone, that makes contact with the eath's surface on dry land, reguardless of any lakes, rivers, etc,being in the damage path.

Land Spout - Non-Mesocyclonic funnel that is spawned from convective air flows, other than Mesocyclonic Supercells, that makes contact with the earth's surface, on dry land, reguardless of any lakes, rivers, etc, being in the damage path.

Waterspout - Mesocyclonic and Non-Mesocyclonic funnel that makes contact with the earth's surface over water, that dissipates without making landfall.

Is this something that any of you good people could go with, if it was implemented?

Willie

 

[rdale]

No, because A WATERSPOUT IS NOT THE SAME AS A SUPERCELL TORNADO.

 

[Martin North]

If the Waterspout is pendant from the Mesocyclone of a tornadic Supercell...of course it is.

 

[Willie Dines]

Sorry rdale, but I disagree with you, with all due respect buddy, because a waterspout is a funnel that touches down over water and spends it's entire life cycle over water, and so to my understanding, it doesn't matter if the funnel is spawned from a mesocyclonic or non-mesocyclonic Supercell, because it is still a funnel, that has touched down and spent it's entire life cycle over water.

Willie

 

[Danny Neal]

Sorry rdale, but I disagree with you, with all due respect buddy, because a waterspout is a funnel that touches down over water and spends it's entire life cycle over water, and so to my understanding, it doesn't matter if the funnel is spawned from a mesocyclonic or non-mesocyclonic Supercell, because it is still a funnel, that has touched down and spent it's entire life cycle over water.

Willie

I have to jump in here......so you are saying that a rotating wall cloud over water from a supercell thunderstorm is the SAME as fair weather cumulus producing small needle like waterspouts in the fall in the Great Lakes? I can't help but disagree.

 

[Willie Dines]

I have to jump in here......so you are saying that a rotating wall cloud over water from a supercell thunderstorm is the SAME as fair weather cumulus producing small needle like waterspouts in the fall in the Great Lakes? I can't help but disagree.

Daniel, with all due respect, I am not bothered about the exact conditions to which a fully extending funnel is formed, I am speaking of the funnel itself, NOT the parent storm that spawns it, as I am fully aware of the differenciating conditions in wich funnels are spawned from

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between a supercell spawned funnel and a fair-weather spawned funnel, but they BOTH pose a danger, especially when they touchdown, and the way I see it is, the only difference in them, is in what they are picking up, when they have touched down

Other than the conditions of which they are spawned, there is NO difference, because reguardless of whether it is a fair weather or supercell spawned funnel, it is still a developing funnel and it can cause damage, pick up dirt/debris/water, etc, and that is my point

Willie

 

[Dan Robinson]

This is and has always been an issue of semantics and nothing more. There is no debate that a supercell mesocyclone-produced tornado over water is different from a convergence zone waterspout under Tcu. Do you call them the same thing? IMO who cares, it doesn't matter. They are entirely different in their genesis and potential strength (the supercell version always having the potential to be stronger) but the same in that they are over water.

IMO, if you make the distinction between tornado and landspout over land, then the same distinction between waterspout and tornado over water should also be made. It doesn't make sense to me to call a supercell tornado a waterspout just because it is over water. Water, land, feedlot, parking lot, wheat field - why is the surface going to chage its classification just because of what it happens to be over at the time? Waterspouts dissipate over land, tornadoes do not. To me waterspout=generally benign vortex away from land. Just like a supercell tornado and landspout are different, so is a waterspout and tornado over water. But again, I don't think it matters what we call it as much as this thread makes it seem.

From a practical standpoint, I could see a problem calling an obvious supercell tornado over water a waterspout if it is moving toward land. Take the Panama City tornado in 2004 (the one the tower cam caught coming through town). It started over water and bulldozed onto land and through the city. A true waterspout would not do that. Does the NWS call it a waterspout in the warning before it hits land? I don't think that is very smart as the public reaction to 'waterspout coming ashore' would be different than 'tornado coming ashore'. It would be like calling a hurricane a strong low pressure system coming ashore.

 

[Willie Dines]

Fair point Dan and I agree

Personally, it doesn't bother me, because my interest has always been in a tornados strcutre, dynamics and ground movement dynamics, e.g. the tornadoes rotational wind speed vs opposing directional head winds, etc , classification is of little relavence as I'm happy to just go with the flow and so, whatever works best, is fine with me

Willie

 

[Danny Neal]

Fair point Dan and I agree

Personally, it doesn't bother me, because my interest has always been in a tornados strcutre, dynamics and ground movement dynamics, e.g. the tornadoes rotational wind speed vs opposing directional head winds, etc , classification is of little relavence as I'm happy to just go with the flow and so, whatever works best, is fine with me

Willie

I like Dan's explanation. Believe me I am not saying you are wrong Willie, nor am I proclaiming to be right. It just seems ackward to ME to call it the same thing even though the processes behind it are different. As you said you take away the storm structure and get down to the basics and it is the same thing. Cloud - funnel - contact with water. But I think Dan explained it better to what I didn't so obviously hint at. I am not sure from a warning stand point, that using a "a storm capable of producing a waterspout", uses the same grain of caution as " a storm moving onshore capable of producing a tornado" If you think basically I guess it is the same thing, just one happens to pose a greater danger than the other in my opinion.

 

[Nigel Bolton]

Good to see this discussion has gone global, scope for a much larger sample of oppinions and thus more concise results.

Waterspout should not be dropped. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

However, notice Waternado was mentioned in a previous post, along with a superb picture of a Waterspout. I am more than happy to promote this nomenclature.

Nigel B.