Should the terms waterspout, landspout etc be dropped?

[Mike Birbeck]

Mungo/Torro War

I have followed this thread with some interest. Somewhere along the line some sensible soul suggested reverting to Charles Doswell’s definitions. I suggest we abide with his clear thinking on this subject.
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I have only experienced three tornadic events in my 46 years of life. The first occurred when I was a child growing up in South Africa and was almost certainly produced by a supercell. Memory was of green sky, almost continual lightning, massive hail hammering down on roof, terrified mother grabbing me and dragging me to interior pantry as loud roaring sound drowned out even the hammer of hail on the roof. Overall result was destruction of a block of well constructed brick houses one street from us. A tornado was reported. Tornado genesis was almost certainly mesocyclonic. Massive Cb with saucer shaped striations.

Second experience in Florida USA (off St Petersburg) coast. Large active cumulonimbus closely followed by towering cumulus. Funnel formed from towering cumulus and touched down in the bay. A waterspout. Tornado genesis was not super cellular. If the waterspout had come ashore it would have become a landspout. If the waterspout had been formed from typical meso setup then it would have become a tornado upon landfall.

Third experience was in the UK. Active cold front with strong westerly winds. Funnel touched down briefly to the north of London from low topped cumulo nimbus embedded in layers of nimbo stratus. Landspout (reported by national news that night as mini tornado). . Tornado genesis, some sort of stretching in cold core setup. If it had crossed a lake then it would have become a waterspout.

All this seems perfectly simple. Am I deluded? This post is, of course, an example of a Birbeck spout

I am most amused by the Mungo/Torro war. Personally I believe that Torro do fulfill a vital function here in the UK and I suspect that Mungo is smiling when he posts like the true agent provocateur he appears to be.

If Dr Meaden of Torro genuinely believes that crop circles are created by anything else than pranksters then that is, in my humble opinion, an eccentric view but it appears far less eccentric than those held by people who believe that crop circles are created by little green men in flying saucers. I believe that the majority of humans hold or support strange, illogical or downright odd ideas but we seem to stumble onwards and progress as a race and I don't think Torro should be stigmatized by one opinion held by an otherwise talented and intelligent member of their organization.

 

[Willie Dines]

Ha ha...I would if it was a pint of Boddingtons!

Lmao, no comment

Willie

 

[Nigel Bolton]

Mike Birbeck makes a very salient post above reference the different types of weather set-ups that can and do produce tornadoes and/or waterspouts.

TORRO has in recent years gone to great lengths at looking at tornadogenesis within the UK and across parts of Europe. One of the main conclusions that can be drawn from the research is that the average UK tornado does not fit the American model, namely true supercellular tornadoes in the UK are very rare, occuring every few years on average. The T5/EF2 tornado that struck Birmingham on the 28th July 2005 was a wedge tornado associated with a supercellular thunderstorm that developed at the intersection between the northern tip of a trough in warm air, and the west-east lying warm front at the northern periphery of the warm air. This generated what we sometimes call in the UK, a Triple Point or TP tornado, the interaction of trough and warm front, or indeed, warm/cold/occluded front, that generates a significant amount of helicity within a small area. Tornadoes were forecast on this day across central and eastern parts of the UK, and to my knowledge there were four.

The Selsey Tornado (T4/EF1/2) that came ashore as a waterspout late evening of the 7th January 1998 was also associated with a thunderstorm that had supercellular charactoristics. However, other factors came into play that particular night, including vortex shedding by the Isle of Wight, and also the development of a sig line of shear close to the south coast of the UK, overlying the Isle of Wight. Across this zone of shear, winds to the north were 5kt northwesterly and to the south 35kt WSW. Any storms that ran along that zone of shear gained a cyclonic twist from these differing winds, and generated rotation within the lower layers. Tornadoes were forecast on this night too.

Most UK tormadoes are cold air phenomena and are short lived. They often occur along sharp rearward sloping cold fronts, associated with strong, but relatively shallow convection, a sharp wind veer and spped of front that is efficient at scooping up high Theta W air ahead of said front.

One new idea about UK tornadoes is that many are topographically generated, though even here in the UK, there is much debate as to whether this simple science holds true. Air forced around a promontary, through a gap between hills, or around islands can cause eddys to form. Such eddys can be seen in layers of Sc as winds flow around islands such as Jan Mayan and the Canaries. These eddys can be ingested by passing shower clouds, and the vorticity stretched to produce generally short lived, but occasionally strong tornadoes and or waterspouts.

Nigel B.

 

[Martin North]

Good for Stormtrack to have another Pro-Met aboard Nigel...

Nice to see you posting here!

 

[Howard Kirby]

Hi guys,
Finally got around to voting. Ofcourse multiple terms should be kept. A waterspout is over water right? Can't get more logical than that.

 

[Nigel Bolton]

Good for Stormtrack to have another Pro-Met aboard Nigel...

Nice to see you posting here!

Pleasure is all mine Martin.

Boddingtons??? I would have thought living in the east you may have cared for a few Abbott's.

N.

 

[Jared Farrer]

Howard Bluestein coined the term landspout to explain a vortex that orginates from non mesocyclonic features. Keeping the terms is important for study. If we just called everything a tornado, that would confuse the understanding that we have come to today. The goal in science is to understand what is being studied intimatly. So our understanding of tornado science has led us to invent different terms for different phenomenon. Lets keep some sagacity, and retain the terms.

Cool to see all you englanders on here! I would love to hear some stories from you guys! Whats chasing like overthere? Where are the flat spots?

 

[Martin North]

Hi Jared

Thanks for your comments. This year was very poor for storms as we had a summer of cool and very wet weather. We never had one single Spanish Plume (advection of Theta-e) into the country across France which gives us spectacular summer break-downs.

The last supercell was a HP affair which as a discrete cell began right moving about 20 miles off the English Channel coast of Sussex. As it came ashore there were widespread reports of very high SLW damage and large hail.

The last decent tornado I had 'dealings' with was on 31st December 2006 when an EF3 tornado carved a 26 km track across an area of N. Ireland. I investigated a number of damaged properties.

 

[Willie Dines]

Hey Martin, whereabouts was the touchdown? , I remember briefly hearing about a touchdown around that time last year, but I didn't hear any reports about it, but then again, I don't bother with TV much. (Too much cr@p on)

Sorry for going off topic people

Willie

 

[Martin North]

I didn't do any TV for it.

The last TV interview I did was for the Carrickfergus tornado.

The tornado touched down at Gawleys Gate near Aghalee and continued across country to just North of Nutts Corner. It was there it was at it's strongest and trees were simply decimated.

At the time it happened I was already out and spotting from Scrabo Hill where I recorded 78 mph on the handheld anemometer before having to take cover cause the hail was getting a bit lively...

 

[Willie Dines]

That's a pretty hefty damage track for tornado here, but it doesn't suprise me, was there much structural damage caused, or just to trees and hedge-rows?

Ahh yes, I remember the news reports on the touchdown at Carrickfergus, but the media winds me up when they keep using that stupid "Mini tornado" term, to describe any tornadic inflicted damage during a severe thnderstorm, but you did a great job with the interview for UTV

Scrabo hill is a very familiar place as I originally lived in Comber, and used to regularly walk the 3 miles to Scrabo Tower, it was especially good up there, when any thunderstorms floating around and like you say, especially good for getting a 360 view of what's going on weatherwise

Willie

 

[mark humpage]

Whats chasing like overthere? Where are the flat spots?

CRAP. Take Missouri, add 35,000 vehicles a day, congestion and $10/gallon and you'll see why we all come to the US!

Here's a stat for you - No one has ever forecast, chased and captured a tornado on camera in the UK!!! Fancy a challenge?


Mark

 

[Dustin Fan]

I don't think waterspout should be as it is very different as we all know from a regular tornado.

 

[Martin North]

That's a pretty hefty damage track for tornado here, but it doesn't suprise me, was there much structural damage caused, or just to trees and hedge-rows?

Hi Willie

Two stone houses were badly damaged and a shipping yard. But, yes, most damage was rural in this case.

I also covered TV for the Rasharkin and Aghalee (the other one) tornadoes.

 

[Martin North]

CRAP. Take Missouri, add 35,000 vehicles a day, congestion and $10/gallon and you'll see why we all come to the US!

Here's a stat for you - No one has ever forecast, chased and captured a tornado on camera in the UK!!! Fancy a challenge?

Whilst not Tornadoes...

Nicholas J. Verge of ESTOFEX correctly forecast the rotating thunderstorms of 30.07.07 in N. Ireland. I personally went out to chase after looking at the scenario myself (on the morning) which resulted in the Belfast and Downpatrick rotating thunderstorm photos. It is also fair to say the Dungannon storm that same day was also a supercell after seeing photos of the Meso and low hanging Wall Cloud.

Also, Peter Kirk and I were discussing the possibility of Supercells (certainly Mesocyclones) over N. Ireland on 30.12.07 the night before the Nutts Corner tornado. Again I was out on that one...though I missed the tail end charlie.

Bad luck really.