Should the terms waterspout, landspout etc be dropped?

[Tomas Pucik]

Mungo, just for you, I post a sounding, taken in Ireland that day, when your NOSHEAR NOINSTABILITY situation arised. Hopefully you notice there is a good amount of shear present there. Both speed and directional.

 

[Brandon Ivey]

We also had a Supercell on tail end of a squall line in 31st Dec 2006 which dropped an EF2/3 (borderline) tornado with a damage track of in excess of 10 miles. I reported that one on here with photos as I do with all tornadic events I photograph or investigate.

When did you get the EF scale over there? Did it go into effect the same time it did here? just curious.

Forgive me for posting without completely doing my research on this thread. I I did not have time last night to read through 100+ posts. I was just looking at the images you posted and noticed the thread title. I read a few posts close to the images and thought you were saying that those type of storms would produce landspouts.

 

[rdale]

I think he's calling it a supercell. Reading back a couple pages to see that was pretty simple. (only 8 prior posts)

But this thread is specifically about non-supercell tornadoes - reading the title (just a few inches above) is pretty simple.

 

[Martin North]

When did you get the EF scale over there? Did it go into effect the same time it did here? just curious.

Forgive me for posting without completely doing my research on this thread. I I did not have time last night to read through 100+ posts. I was just looking at the images you posted and noticed the thread title. I read a few posts close to the images and thought you were saying that those type of storms would produce landspouts.

I was using the EF Scale as an internationally recognised method of description.

It was estimated at 140 - 150 mph which on the Tornado Scale (used by some here) was T5. So really that is EF3.

 

[Stuart Robinson]

Here is an image of the type that MJ suggests "NEVER "occurs across the UK (but TORRO makes up) - it did not produce any hail, but it WAS Tornadic - I did not record the storm myself but I did conduct the damage survey afterwards - attached is an image of some of the damage that I found.
FYI On the same day, some 50 Million $$ worth of damage occurred to Birmingham ~ (UK's second city) from another tornadic Supercell - in fact this was a wedge tornado that crossed the city on that day. Again no hail was produced.
Regarding "TORRO Nados" I don’t take ANY offence in that you publicly discredit the work that TORRO do in trying to prove / disprove UK tornadic occurrences. (As we have been doing since 1972). Indeed I welcome peer review on our findings!
I do suggest that look at the accepted papers written by Dr. Fujita and Dr. Meaden before making any further comment on this subject – do you know that the Supercell was first described in Reading, UK in 1974 ??
However before we go further I do suggest that you undertake some accepted basic storm reading first. I need to be sure that we can discuss this matter with some understanding on your behalf.
Once you have done this then we can take the debate further.

 

[Paul Knightley]

Stu is correct - the supercell was first documented in the UK (indeed, just a couple of miles from where I type this!). We all know that the Great Plains have bigger and more frequent severe thunderstorms than the UK - no-one is disputing that!

I wonder whether research into tornadoes has, for a time anyway, concentrated too much on supercells - would it be best to work out what is going on at the bottom end of the tornado spectrum and then work up to the most powerful ones?

 

[rdale]

If funds were limitless - your idea might make sense. But look how hard it is to get Vortex funded, and that's for the biggie tornados. There's just no way to imagine similar funding for one that'll study landspouts...

 

[Paul Knightley]

I quite agree! (although not with the term landspouts! )

But maybe what gets a non-supercell tornado going is effectively the same thing as with a supercell tornado.

However, I have been wondering about the huge ones; Hallam, OKC, Greensburg, etc. To me, these seem so much more than vorticity being stretched! They seem almost like intense ground-level mesocyclones.

 

[MJ Poore]

Now, now, calm down my angry little Torro chipmunks and other related supporters. The big bad wolf is back

Just to close this off, I am arguing against the collective Torro habit of labeling storms as supercells -largely- on visual appearance in the UK, and it's tied to Torro's labeling of almost anything rotating as a tornado. It's just dumbing down to suit the hyped up claims of this Torro organisation (outbreaks!, tornados!, etc), in my humble view. And now I am not taking anymore posts, assertions of meteorological superiority or crying on this subject. Suck it in and deal with it. Go chase a super outbreak of landspouts if it makes you feel better.



Ps, Stu- Yes that pic does look like a a supercell to me. I agree with you. But then again on the evidence presented here it could also be something else. I am just saying it's not conclusive evidence.

Ps, Martin - Here's the skew t from the time and place of what you say is an HP supercell according to the pics you have presented. Now I am not a meteorologist, but surely this is not the environment for an HP supercell?
http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/sou...R=2006&MONTH=07&FROM=3000&TO=3012&STNM=03918\

 

[Stuart Robinson]

This is the sounding ..Illegal field: STNM=03918\

 

[Martin North]

Mungo...I haven't the foggiest idea why Stormtrack put up with you...

The latest HP...yes HP...Supercell to hit the Uk affected Rye and the surrounding area quite recently. Large hail and SLW winds in excess of 70 kts were present.

You continue to flounder around in your confused state as regards convective weather.

You really need to study a bit about what you are rambling on about. However, I guess that'll never happen and you'll continue to 'troll' around trashing anything Torro says or does on here.

It's a shame really...as it's voluntary and we do everything in our own time for free (Pro-Mets 'n all)...and that shows the commitment these guys have to the subject in hand and their devotion to severe weather research.

 

[Paul Knightley]

I wouldn't worry about him, Martin - it's pretty clear what a number of people think!

Right, I'd better get on and invent a few supercells across the UK because, of course, we never get them!

 

[Eric Tourangeau]

Well, about the subject "Should the terms waterspout, landspout etc be dropped?".... what about that thing that happened in Black Lake, Michigan? Here's the news...

Tornado dissipating east of Black Lake, Michigan, during the October 18, 2007 tornado outbreak. This tornado was rated EF1 with winds up to 94 mph. Damage consisted of a barn destroyed just north of M-68. The sporadic damage path up through Black Lake was 1/8 mile wide and around 10 miles long. Some tree damage was seen around Black Lake. The photo taken by Nathan Krinsky from the back deck of his home on Black Lake in northern Michigan, 15 miles southeast of Cheboygan.

On the picture, the tornado touch the water and the ground at the same time.... how do you call it?? A waternado?? A tornaspout????

 

[Danny Neal]

Well, about the subject "Should the terms waterspout, landspout etc be dropped?".... what about that thing that happened in Black Lake, Michigan? Here's the news...

Tornado dissipating east of Black Lake, Michigan, during the October 18, 2007 tornado outbreak. This tornado was rated EF1 with winds up to 94 mph. Damage consisted of a barn destroyed just north of M-68. The sporadic damage path up through Black Lake was 1/8 mile wide and around 10 miles long. Some tree damage was seen around Black Lake. The photo taken by Nathan Krinsky from the back deck of his home on Black Lake in northern Michigan, 15 miles southeast of Cheboygan.

On the picture, the tornado touch the water and the ground at the same time.... how do you call it?? A waternado?? A tornaspout????

A supercell tornado that moved over water? Its like the OKC F5 that moved over the Canadian river southwest of Moore. For 30 seconds it was over water, does that mean it was a waterspout? I don't think so. I would say it is just a supercell tornado that moved over water.

 

[Martin North]

I would generally call it a tornado if it is pendant from a Mesocyclone.

Btw...that's a nice photo.