Should the terms waterspout, landspout etc be dropped?

[Martin North]

Mungo

You really haven't got a clue what you are talking about as regards severe thunderstorms. Those supercells were confirmed by a number of pro-mets and Stormtrack members on here.

It's about time you actually studied what you are spouting on about before commenting.

I seem to recall on another forum which you do not post on anymore, you were completely confused about certain aspects of severe thunderstorm structure.

No, please if you want to comment about severe thunderstorms and supercells...go and read up and educate yourself some more.

 

[Bart_Comstock]

I agree that a gustnado should not be tor warned and be given a t-storm warn if anything at all. To many tornado warnings will mean a lower sense of seriousness among the public as well as a larger amount of false reports sent to the NWS. I also feel that if a waterspout is mesocyclonic it should just be called a tornado, or a tornado over water and reserve the term waterspout for a vortex that meets with both the surface and the base of the storm and aren't associated with a rotating updraft.
I also feel the same about landspouts and feel they too should receive a separate title from a meso produced tornado. And as far as the public is concerned, why not use these terms in front of them? Sure at first there may still be some confusion between the types but as time progressed more and more people would be able to understand the difference. One way this is possible is starting with younger kids, have the text books changed to include the different types of tornadoes in kids 7th grade physical science classes and they will grow up to know what the differances are. Knowledge is power and a power in my opinion and a better informed public is always better then a bunch of people who view things such as twister as a factual thriller. Ignorance is bliss only because of the blindness it induces.

Also I disagree with you MJ in that you have to have some super svr storm to have a supercell. It is important to note that only about 30% of supercells produce tornadoes and you don't necessarily have to have a supercell to have large hail. A thunderstorm with a persistently rotating updraft is, in my opinion, all that is needed to receive the title of a supercell, also landspouts are most certainly dangerous and have even been known to deal up to F3 damage and deserve a tornado warning.

 

[scott r currens]

One day I will learn not to get sucked into this discussion. Today isn’t that day. LOL!

This illustrates the need for consistency and applying properly agreed scientific definitions to things.

How would you define a tornado? Personally I think the landspout/waterspout/non-mesocyclone/non-supercell/supercell/mesosyclone terms should not be mentioned in the definition of a tornado or within warnings. They are sub-categories that weather nerds should debate, not for general consumption. As I see it a tornado is: A rapidly rotating (winds >64mph or 104km/h at the surface) column of air that is in contact with the surface of the earth and pendant from deep moist convection.

The consequesnces of a landspout and a tornado are very different, one is dangerous and the other is not. One is formed in a supercell storm, the other can form at any time on most normal storms.

Landspouts are most frequently in the (E)F-0 to (E)F-2 although (E)F-3 ratings have been achieved on occasion. Why is a (E)F-2 landspout not dangerous and a (E)F-2 supercell tornado is? Do you think that a strong landspout (E)F-2 or 3 should be considered a tornado?

Calling a spout or a cold core funnel a convergence zone tornado or just a tornado as this Torro organisation do, is misleading and alarmist.

These tornadoes occurred in a classic cold core setup with surface temps in the mid 50’s (~13C) and dewpoints in the low 50’s(~11C). Do you think they are non-threatening non-supercell tornadoes? (Sorry the video links don’t work.)

 

[John Mason]

That's because maybe what you were seeing werent supercells Martin? To you personally they were supercells, and no one can stop you from using that word.

This illustrates the need for consistency and applying properly agreed scientific definitions to things. The consequesnces of a landspout and a tornado are very different, one is dangerous and the other is not. One is formed in a supercell storm, the other can form at any time on most normal storms.
Calling a spout or a cold core funnel a convergence zone tornado or just a tornado as this Torro organisation do, is misleading and alarmist.

Real tornadoes are dangerous and the word should be used carefully. Not just to any old spin up. Nor should any old storm suddenly be a supercell, I personally am loath to use the S word unless it's hailing bricks, blowing a typhoon, and spitting out tornadoes (hopefully).

You have a strange obsession with trying to knock TORRO, Mungo.

For the benefit of our USA friends, I'll post an image of damage done by one of these nonexistent UK tornadoes. Taken in mid-Wales, late November 2006: the event occurred in the depth of night and cut a swathe of damage several km long. Paperwork (important) from this portakabin (it was used by a car dealership as an office) was found tens of kilometres downwind and returned to the owner - ah, the joys of headed notepaper!

Anyway, for MJP, here we go. Cheers - John

 

[Paul Knightley]

Mungo - I do not need to repeat what has already been mentioned above! Any tornado is dangerous, irrespective of whether it has formed beneath a mesocyclone, beneath a single-cell pulse storm, beneath a surging cold front with attending misocyclones, etc. Scott makes a good poiont re: tornadogenesis & warnings. The public don't care under what circumstances a tornado has formed, they just want to be warned that they are possible/are occurring. Of course, from a meteorological point of view it is very important that we try to understand the different modes of formation, but this does not have to be carried through to the end product (although it is obviously useful to try to pick the situations when strong-violent tornadoes are possible).

As for your comments re: Martin's picture of a supercell - well, this just highlights the ignorance on your part towards the definition of a supercell. It's nothing to do with size, and everything to do with dynamics.

 

[Tomas Pucik]

. Nor should any old storm suddenly be a supercell, I personally am loath to use the S word unless it's hailing bricks, blowing a typhoon, and spitting out tornadoes (hopefully).

I disagree with this statement. Supercell is defined by mesocyclone presence with storm updraft and not by storm severity. Although most of supercells produce some type of severe storm, there is a little fraction of them that do not. And despite of this fact, they are supercells.

Also why are you calling TORRO alarmistic organisation? Research has proved that in Europe many tornadoes do not come from Supercells, but are landspout in nature. But it has nothing to do with their destructive potential. Czech republic suffered from F3 tornado that might not have come from supercell. Most of the F1 and F2 are landspouts. Supercells rarely spawn tornadoes here, most of the time, when such storms occur, high winds or hail are observed. Therefore I would really consider issuing warnings on occurences of both landspouts and gustnadoes. At least for my region, that means Middle Europe.

 

[MJ Poore]

Ignorant, me ignorant? I am only disagreeing with you Torro guys, some of your collective views are bit different and your collective manner of arguing is rather personal. Perhaps all you Torro freemansons should just try answer my questions instead of attacking me personally? Martin, you posted your supposed "Irish supercell" pics here some while ago. That thread has disappeared unfortunately. Please post them again here and I'll give you a full critique of why it's not a supercell. That's if you think you can deal with that.

Back to the main topic, yes I suppose if a landspout etc is EF 3 it should be dangerous. But then this is an exceptional circumstance. You can drown in a raging sea which is dangerous. But you can also drown in a handbasin of water. But this is expceptional and you would not say a handbasin of water is dangerous. If you get my meaning here. My point is anything can be dangerous if you want it to be. But do you want to go around calling everything dangerous? I don't know about anyone else, but I personally get sick and tired of these safety bunnies trying to classify everything as dangerous to make themselves sound more important.

Ps Paul, according to the tagline you preface yourself with, you are the "Director of Severe Weather Forecasting Division." If I may ask, I think this is a relevant question here... what qualifies you for this lofty title? Why is it a Division? Are you getting paid for it? OR do you have a day job? By putting yourself across this way it seems you feel the need to sound gratutiously important toward others on this forum and have the position to call others ignorant.

 

[Paul Knightley]

Within TORRO, yes I have that role, Mungo. My day job is Assistant Forecast Manager, so I'd like to think I know something about forecasting. I'm not getting paid for my TORRO role, but given that the national forecasting agency does little to advance the public's knowledge of severe weather, it's a useful role.

It's a shame you feel the need to bash in this way when I was only making a point about your understanding of what makes a storm a supercell.

By the way, I have nothing against you personally; indeed, you're a thoroughly pleasant chap in person and I enjoyed having a drink with you.

 

[MJ Poore]

The pleasure was all mine Paul

On the subject of forecasting which you do, can you actually forecast one of these Torro "Tornadoes" (ie a landpout, or cold core funnel for the rest us) that occur in the UK and chase it???

If so, send the photo's and chase plan, and I'll concede you've won the argument.


Until then, I contend you and Torro are trying to sell an ass as a horse.

M

 

[Paul Knightley]

I would never sell you to a horse Mungo!

LOL @ "TORRO tornado"!

A tornado is a tornado, period. Whether it's beneath a mesocyclone or whatever. Yes, these can be forecasted. Chasing them is much trickier, as I'm sure you understand. Storms are often HP, roads are almost always too busy, and storms tend to move rather quickly. But some decent pics have been taken over the years - have a look at the TORRO gallery.

 

[MJ Poore]

Indeed. I use the expression Torronado for these cold core funnels reported by your club as "Tornados".

I am trying to think of an expression in which a single cell storm becomes a supercell despite the obvious absence of conditions that would normally be required for it to happen.

Howabout a Torrocell - An unimportant storm that is made up to be a supercell by members of Torro, usually by means of visual cues that have only some vague reference to the real thing.

Please forgive my indulgence at your expense

 

[Paul Knightley]

The pleasure is all ours, Mungo! We are only to happy to induldge your rapier-like wit!

Notwithstanding a supercell is a single-cell storm, a TORROcell is quite a nice name!

 

[Martin North]

Sorry Mungo, but we went down the photos road once before and you displayed a complete lack of understanding of structure at the time. Sorry but you did.

I have no gripe with you personally...but it's a shame we have to put up with more of this nonsense on a forum (which when I joined) we had to make a written formal application to join and explain why we should be here including what our/my background was.

Now, if I didn't know a lot about storms (and I've been doing this for 20 years) I wouldn't embarrass myself be being here....

It's a shame you take issue with Paul...a Pro-Met who is an expert (probably one of...if not the...UK's leading thunderstorm experts) when it is quite apparent you could learn so much from him.

 

[Dave Clarke]

Mungo, I really think you have your "meteorological pants around your ankles" with this. After your comments on UKww re the Belfast supercell were shot down in flames, you disappeared only to re-appear here with your mis-aligned meteorological ramblings. I've forwarded a copy of your post onto Josh Wurman, as he enjoys a good laugh in the evenings.

 

[Martin North]

OKay Mungo...here's a picture...