Should the terms waterspout, landspout etc be dropped?

Drop multiple terms for tornadoes or not?

  • Use a single term - TORNADO

    Votes: 17 13.8%
  • Use multiple terms - TORNADO, LANDSPOUT, WATERSPOUT etc

    Votes: 106 86.2%

  • Total voters
    123
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Ps. I have never heard of Torro are they like the Noaa?


Hell no.

It's a private subscription organisation of UK folks who like, well, tornadoes and other natural phenomena.

They have some interesting views, for example the guy in charge, whose is called Terence, was on National Geographic recently to explain his personal theory on how crop circles are caused by solar flares!!

I freely admit my view is a little biased. As you may see from previous posts.;)

I have been taking great public exception with their calling whirlwinds and lanspouts 'tornadoes' for quite a while now...

I protest greatly at what they try to label 'science', because it's not, it's just talk.
 
Many waterspouts come ashore in the UK, but then I suppose we've got a rather higher water to land ratio, this is why complacency surrounding them is a concern of mine. A tornado occurred only last night just N of the coastal town of Aberystwyth in Wales. Not sure if this began over water or not, but sounds like F1 damage so far, roofs removed, chimnies down etc. There's a TORRO guy on site doing an investigation as I type. This is my reasoning behind not wanting people to think a waterspout is something different... it is simply a tornado that is currently over water. If it comes ashore it can be equally as dangerous.

Scott Lincoln - "Very different meteorological factors contribute to these different whirls and that is why they are called different names."

The general synoptic environment may be very different in terms of that which encourages supercells and that which encourages shallow convection along a convergence line, but the factors required for tornadogenesis are probably very similar. There's no obvious reason to assume they're different certainly. Those that like them classified separately largely want the vortex classified by the environment I think, rather than by the physics of the vortex itself...

MatthewCarmen - "are Dust Devils made the same way a tornado is?"

No, devils form from the ground up and are simply and eddy and a thermal getting combined I suspect. Tornadic updraughts are sustained from above, by the release of latent heat and therefore instability when condensation occurs in a cloud. Devils aren't associated with parent clouds. Different physics makes these entirely separate from tornadoes imo.
 
Just to respond to Mungos continued vendetta against TORRO, although I'd probably be better retaining the high moral ground, TORRO stands for the "TOrnado and storm Research Organisation". We have a paid membership which covers newsletters and journals.

The staff are a group of volunteers, a mix of professional and amateur meteorologists, who are interested in researching severe weather phenomenon. If they have opinions on other topics, that's fine and there's no reason for it to interfere with severe weather research. As mentioned above, staff and members pull together to try and research all potential tornadic events, with site investigations and papers written where appropriate. It would be great if more pure research could be done (I'd like to do some myself), but as volunteers, time is of a premium. I think most would agree that the work we do is more positive than no-one doing anything!

As for classifying "landspouts" as tornadoes Mungo, I've explained above why we can't differentiate in the UK. We have no dopplar, so unless a witness can confirm rotation within the cloud, we have no way of knowing. "Landspout" is rarely used by anyone in the UK, except those with connections to chasing stateside, so it's little surprise we don't use it. I accept however, that the vast majority of the tornadoes we record in the UK are what would be classified as landspouts in the US and I doubt anyone within TORRO would disagree.

Anyway, this isn't meant to be a discussion about TORRO as I'm sure most aren't very interested. Perhaps you've something to add with regards the differences between tornadoes, waterspouts, landspouts etc instead Mungo?
 
Sam is right - there is no way of determining whether storm-scale rotation is present in UK storms, but that doesn't matter - a tornado is a tornado, period...there's an obsession with tornadoes beneath mesocyclones, which in part I can understand, due to their sometimes violent characteristics.

However, in my view, this is due to the updraught being much stronger and more persistent than in "ordinary" cells, rather that there being something fundamentally different. At the end of the day, it's still vortex stretching!

I would assume that if non-supercell tornadoes were not called tornadoes in the US (for statistical purposes), the yearly average would be quite a bit lower than 1,000!


p.s. Mungo, you seemed such a nice chap when we met in the pub after the TORRO conference you attended - were we not polite enough? Or did I forget to buy you a drink! ;)
 
I am a nice chap, just because you don't agree with me etc...;)

By the way Landspout is a term coined by Howie Bluestein in the 1970's. The word whirlwind has been in common English usage for 300 hundred years. Why not call landspouts, whirlwinds, which is what I suspect the word really refers too. Not sexy enough maybe:cool:
 
are Dust Devils made the same way a tornado is? If so and we decided to call every Dustdevil or whirlwind we see a tornado how are people suposed to know which ones are dangerouse?

Absolutely not. Dust devils usually come on cloud-free days, and clouds are the most basic of ingredients necessary for a tornado to be attached to.

People do not need a dust devil warning.
 
A tornado occurred only last night just N of the coastal town of Aberystwyth in Wales. Not sure if this began over water or not, but sounds like F1 damage so far, roofs removed, chimnies down etc.

This touched down a couple of miles inland in the end, possible as a result of vortex shedding by hills in the boundary layer and the updraught stretching the vorticity. Unlikely to be a meso because it was only on the ground for just over a mile, but achieved up to around F2 damage. Plenty of media coverage of this one over this side of the pond! ...In case anyone's interested... ;)
 
Wow! I am amazed at how jumbled and confused all of the terms for tornadoes have become through the course of this thread.

I highly suggest that everyone interested in this thread read “What is a tornado?†by Chuck Doswell. Link

Better yet I'll just quote the paper here.

2. Waterspouts, landspouts, and ...?

Having mentioned waterspouts, this raises another topic. There is a special name for a tornado moving over the water: a waterspout. Why do we not have special names for tornadoes moving over sand (sandspout?), or asphalt (tarmacnado?), or mobile homes (manufacturnado?), or eucalyptus trees (gumswirl?)? Is it a waterspout if the water is fresh water rather than sea water? Does it become a waterspout if it moves over a lake? What about a pond? How about encountering a swimming pool or perhaps a puddle? How big does a body of water have to be to create a waterspout from a tornado? What about when crossing a river? A creek? A dry streambed? Would this last example be a "dry waterspout"? I am engaging deliberately in reductio ad adsurdum here because I do not believe there is any scientific distinction of consequence between a waterspout and a tornado!

In the new Glossary, in fact, the definition of a waterspout is now:

Waterspout -- 1. In general, a tornado over a body of water. 2. In its most common form, a nonsupercell tornado over water.

For years, people believed that waterspouts were a distinctly different phenomenon, uniquely associated with tropical and subtropical convection that might not even qualify as cumulonimbus clouds. Of course, some "authorities" knew of the annoying problem of supercells over water; recognition of this produced the abominable term: "tornadic waterspout." Of late, it has been observed that phenomena quite comparable to waterspouts arise over the land, leading to another dubious term (that I have used!): "landspout" (by analogy, a "waterspoutic tornado"?). In my opinion, all these terms refer to the same phenomenon: an intense vortex associated with deep moist convection. Thus, I must quibble with the standard definition for its exclusion of convective vortices that happen with clouds not meeting the criteria to be cumulonimbi (e.g., those without glaciation at the cloud top).

I am proposing the following definition:

Tornado -- A vortex extending upward from the surface at least as far as cloud base (with that cloud base associated with deep moist convection), that is intense enough at the surface to do damage should be considered a tornado.

This is without regard to

* the underlying surface,
* the existence/non-existence of a condensation cloud from cloud base to the surface,
* the depth of the moist convective cloud,
* the presence/absence of ice in the upper reaches of the convective cloud,
* the occurrence/non-occurrence of lightning within the convective cloud, or even
* the intensity of the phenomenon beyond some lower threshold.

My broadened definition is designed to ignore what I consider to be incidental aspects of the situation. I believe that the physical process giving rise to an intense vortex is not associated with any of these coincidental issues and so the labeling of the real vortices that occur should not depend on them. It also excludes any phenomena not associated with deep moist convection, such as dust devils or "mountainadoes," and avoids making artificial and scientifically unjustified distinctions between "spouts" and tornadoes.[5]

I hasten to add that I do not believe that the physical processes giving rise to tornadoes are all the same. It appears that tornadoes arise in many different ways, and perhaps different process can be associated with the tornado at different times in its life cycle. Moreover, not all tornadoes associated with a given moist convective cloud arise via the same processes (see Doswell and Burgess 1993). Some of the relatively intense vortices associated with a convective storm probably should not be considered tornadoes; e.g., circulations not extending to the surface, and true gustnadoes (see below), assuming we can identify them as such. There is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence for non-tornadic intense vortices in association with convection (see Moller et al. 1974; Cooley 1978; Doswell 1985; Bluestein 1988; Doswell and Burgess 1993; Bluestein 1994), but not much hard information about the processes giving birth to these vortices.

At present, we are more or less content to classify tornadoes according to whether or not they occur with supercells. In the future, it may become scientifically useful to sub-classify tornadoes even further, as we learn more about how real events occur (as opposed to, say, events in our computer simulations!). If we must classify, then it seems to me that we should do so on the basis of physical processes and not be concerned with superficial aspects of the events. We are far enough along in our understanding of tornadoes that we ought to be able to move at levels deeper than the surface now.

e. Other wierd things. It is plausible to believe that gustnadoes can develop into tornadoes (see below); there are at least some indications [e.g., from Erik Rasmussen in some personal communications] that a true dust devil could, as well! Essentially, there are many ways to produce an intense vortex from a preexisting, nontornadic vortex. Since there's a lot we don't know or understand, if we look carefully, we may continue to find examples that don't fit our nice, clean hypotheses.[8]

8. What to do with "gustnadoes"?

There is another class of events that has caused a large amount of heartburn: gustnadoes. Observations indicate clearly that relatively weak, short-lived vortices can form along the leading edge of an outflow boundary. The mechanism(s) by which such vortices form? No one really knows. Hence, almost anything I can say about these events is pure speculation. We have no detailed Doppler radar observations of them; we have no numerical simulations of them; we have virtually no validated knowledge. All we have is anecdotal evidence from storm chasing and some analogies with things seen in laboratory simulations (Idso 1975). The visual appearances of true gustnadoes (as opposed to tornadoes along a gust front, which are manifestly different phenomena) indicate they are shallow (perhaps 10-100 m deep) with no apparent connection to any process happening at cloud base or above (Fig. 6). When they arise, which I believe to be frequently, they occur in "swarms" such that there may be several in existence at the same time along the same gust front, forming and dissipating within no more than a few minutes and probably having only weak wind perturbations. Superimposed on a damaging gust front (i.e., a downburst), they might represent local concentrations of damage. Superimposed on a non-damaging gust front, they might be manifest as isolated damage events in an otherwise benign situation. My guess is that typically, they represent only a minor perturbation of essentially no significance, except in very rare examples.



picture of gustnado

Fig. 6. One of several gustnado events near Welch, Texas on 23 May 1982 [photo ©1982 by Chuck Doswell].

I have some anecdotal evidence that a gustnado can evolve into a true tornado [Dave Blanchard, personal communication], but such an evolution is almost certainly rare. Whereas some true tornadoes might initially resemble a gustnado at the start, I certainly would find it easy to deny gustnadoes (as I have defined them) the status of true tornadoes. Unfortunately, it may be hard to train folks to be able to distinguish them from other vortices occurring in conjunction with deep, moist convection. I certainly have encountered a lot of different notions about gustnadoes, even among meteorologists, much less the lay public. There seems to be a disturbing trend to refer to all tornadoes occurring on a gust front as "gustnadoes" whereas I have tried, apparently without success, to confine the term to the shallow vortices on gust fronts that seem not to extend as far as cloud base. Moreover, even with 20+ years of chasing behind me, I still am encountering things I haven't seen before. What about the person experiencing something like this for the first time? If that person is confused and has a hard time sorting out what he/she experienced, I think they can be forgiven. But we need not assume that the public is congenitally stupid, either. Some people can report quite accurately what they saw, but they describe it in inappropriate terms (e.g., a tornado with multiple vortices becomes several tornadoes merging into one)

There is a lot we don't know about what happens along seemingly boring, 2-dimensional gust fronts! Perhaps gust fronts are prone to dynamical instabilities on a variety of scales, some of which remain small (gustnadoes), some of which are large and persistent enough ("misoscale" eddies) to become a bona fide tornado. There might be a whole spectrum of structures along gust fronts, many of which do not attain "tornadic" proportions (however we might choose to define a tornado). If that is the case, then it might be quite difficult to anticipate when a gust front would produce damaging vortices, from gustnadoes on up to and including what would unambiguously be called tornadoes. The topic of what might happen along gust fronts was written about by Idso (1974; 1975) in a very speculative vein, but little of substance has been done with the topic.
 
Mungo, the TORRO police are on their way! ;) Dust off those great white cages and get the chase truck ready for when I come over.

Mark

Ha Ha Mark. There's a dozen sherrifs departments in Texas who'd like to have a word with you about unpaid fines. I am surprised the FBI are not after you. What was that patrolman's name near Dimmit who you sweet talked out of a speeder. You give the TORRO police my address, I give the Texas Sheriff department yours in England. ;)

You must come chase in SA sometime.

m
 
The poll clearly shows what the Majority of weather enthusiasts and meterologists want. 44 have voted to keep things the way they are and only 12 have voted to call landspouts and waterspouts tornadoes. I think that about sums it up. This was a good discusion thanks for posting this.
 
Yes, there's a clear sway of opinion here Matthew and much as expected really. That said, I'm quite surprised how much support there is for using tornado throughout in some respects, particularly in the UK where something like 40% were in favour, compared to the 20% here.

I still don't agree of course ;) , though understand the attachment to familiar terms and recognise the benefit of the terms telling you something about the environment they formed in/over too...
 
Yes, there's a clear sway of opinion here Matthew and much as expected really. That said, I'm quite surprised how much support there is for using tornado throughout in some respects, particularly in the UK where something like 40% were in favour, compared to the 20% here.

I don't really agree with the figures you quote for the UK.

Many of the votes cast on UKww were from (in some examples) less informed persons than you would expect to come across on this board....
 
Just to clear things up Rdale I would never issue or support a Dust Devil Warning and I was refering to waterspouts. Have a nice day.
 
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