Sam Jowett
I'm sure it is Martin, but I needed some real reasons for not dropping the terms... your reasons just weren't cutting the mustard!
Perhaps using them as sub-genre as I mentioned in my previous post might be more acceptable then?
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I'm sure it is Martin, but I needed some real reasons for not dropping the terms... your reasons just weren't cutting the mustard!
Perhaps using them as sub-genre as I mentioned in my previous post might be more acceptable then?
Sam Jowett
Just to ask about gustnadoes... aren't they just short lived eddy whirlwinds on a gust front? Best covered by severe wind warnings I think...
Jeff Miller
EF5
Sam, you are correct. I erred in my previous thinking as pointed out by Jeff and Scott. I am glad you are posting and bring up topics of interest and discussion. Glad you are on board!
PeteMcConnell
It seems a bit late to change things. People who are out boating will know to watch out for waterspouts, but if they hear about the possibility of tornadoes they might not think it applies to them. Also, if someone is out and sees a landspout, gustnado or tornado, it will probably be called in as a tornado but the NWS will have the last say when verifying.
Jason Boggs
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement.
Paul Knightley
EF5
Don't be afraid of change! Just because something is entrenched in history doesn't make it right!
rdale
EF5
Agreed - but changing 'just because' doesn't make it right either. A waterspout is called a waterspout because it is not related at all to a tornado. So changing the name of a waterspout takes it away from the scientific reality... A tornado over water is simply called a tornado over water. to imply that mariners won't be vigilant on supercell days because SPC issued a Tornado Watch holds no water (sorry ;> )
- Rob
Sam Jowett
Hi Rob,
How is a waterspout not related to a tornado? Aren't they both produced by the same process, the stretching of vorticity by an updraught?
OK, the environment generating that updraught and vorticity will vary, but the tornadogenesis is essentially the same process. That surrounding environment may dictate the strength of the vortex and although non-supercell tornadoes (waterspouts/landspouts) are often weaker, there is a large overlap, so to use these separate names diminuates them and can lead to misconceptions.
This wouldn't be dropping terms for the sake of it, but defining the event accurately plus describing the surrounding processes and geography separately, making their identification clearer...
How is a waterspout not related to a tornado? Aren't they both produced by the same process, the stretching of vorticity by an updraught?
OK, the environment generating that updraught and vorticity will vary, but the tornadogenesis is essentially the same process. That surrounding environment may dictate the strength of the vortex and although non-supercell tornadoes (waterspouts/landspouts) are often weaker, there is a large overlap, so to use these separate names diminuates them and can lead to misconceptions.
This wouldn't be dropping terms for the sake of it, but defining the event accurately plus describing the surrounding processes and geography separately, making their identification clearer...
Martin North
EF4
Well Sam a Jury of your peers has spoken (or written 
)...
Nothing could confuse matters more than if you go around naming every single Waterspout that occurs off the Florida Keys in summer a Tornado for data collection purposes.
Although every car is a car...we can have Mustangs and Hummers. What you are saying is almost..."that's not a Ford...it's a car"
What say you....
)...Nothing could confuse matters more than if you go around naming every single Waterspout that occurs off the Florida Keys in summer a Tornado for data collection purposes.
Although every car is a car...we can have Mustangs and Hummers. What you are saying is almost..."that's not a Ford...it's a car"
What say you....
rdale
EF5
"How is a waterspout not related to a tornado?"
A waterspout cannot be created over land, even though the clouds are of the same type. Similar environment. A waterspout forming over water will die within 50 feet of land, while causing no more than F0 damage. So to call them the same thing is scientifically incorrect - they are not the same, regardless of the "similarity" of their formation. They do not form the same way.
A waterspout cannot be created over land, even though the clouds are of the same type. Similar environment. A waterspout forming over water will die within 50 feet of land, while causing no more than F0 damage. So to call them the same thing is scientifically incorrect - they are not the same, regardless of the "similarity" of their formation. They do not form the same way.
Sam Jowett
Hmmm, I disagree Rob... waterspouts regularly come ashore and survive in the UK, so long as the vorticity and updraught survive.
The key, I guess, is that in Florida for instance, waterspouts don't come ashore much, because the alignment of the convergence zone remains offshore and this is what provides the vorticity for the updraught to stretch. Would you agree?
In the UK, the limiting factor tends to be that, the water provides the instability for the updraught in the cooler part of the year, so when a Cu/Cb comes ashore, the updraught quite quickly decays and obviously can't sustain a tornado.
If this is the case then whether a waterspout comes ashore is entirely related to the micro/mesoclimatology/geography of a region. Therefore, doesn't that prove that waterspouts and tornadoes are the same?
Martin, I expected opinion in the US to be firmly in favour of waterspout/landspout as you well know. It is well used and familiar terminology here... though that doesn't make it right! As for the car analogy, I'm surprised you're repeating it here after I shot you down in flames on UKww... I'll quote from there rather than re-writing it here!
"If the cars are all built in the same way Martin, they have to all have the same name do they not? The factory they were built in is irrelevant. Build them in different ways and you have different names eg tornadoes and devils!"
I'd accept that if the cars look different you might want to add some additional description though...
The key, I guess, is that in Florida for instance, waterspouts don't come ashore much, because the alignment of the convergence zone remains offshore and this is what provides the vorticity for the updraught to stretch. Would you agree?
In the UK, the limiting factor tends to be that, the water provides the instability for the updraught in the cooler part of the year, so when a Cu/Cb comes ashore, the updraught quite quickly decays and obviously can't sustain a tornado.
If this is the case then whether a waterspout comes ashore is entirely related to the micro/mesoclimatology/geography of a region. Therefore, doesn't that prove that waterspouts and tornadoes are the same?
Martin, I expected opinion in the US to be firmly in favour of waterspout/landspout as you well know. It is well used and familiar terminology here... though that doesn't make it right!
As for the car analogy, I'm surprised you're repeating it here after I shot you down in flames on UKww... I'll quote from there rather than re-writing it here! "If the cars are all built in the same way Martin, they have to all have the same name do they not? The factory they were built in is irrelevant. Build them in different ways and you have different names eg tornadoes and devils!"
I'd accept that if the cars look different you might want to add some additional description though...
Paul Knightley
EF5
A tornado will form whenever there is vorticity and upward motion - now just because this happens frequenltly in the Florida Keys region over water does not mean that the resulting updraught is not a tornado. I think people are getting confused here - all that has been proposed is that tornado is the generic term for such vorticies.
Shane Adams
It doesn't matter what we call it, it's still gonna happen and people still won't pay attention. You have to remember, outside of these weather boards and the meteorlogical community in general - nobody cares.
Sam Jowett
To a degree Shane, I guess you're right. Still better to be consistent though...
Martin North
EF4
Martin, I expected opinion in the US to be firmly in favour of waterspout/landspout as you well know. It is well used and familiar terminology here... though that doesn't make it right!
"If the cars are all built in the same way Martin, they have to all have the same name do they not? The factory they were built in is irrelevant. Build them in different ways and you have different names eg tornadoes and devils!"
I'd accept that if the cars look different you might want to add some additional description though...
Get a grip Sam!
When are you going to drop this meatless bone...
You no more shot me down here than anywhere else. This arguement is on three boards now and you are losing across all three.
Time for you, I suggest, to be elegant in defeat and drop the subject...
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