Kevin Rimcoski
EF3
Good point, Warren
I'm just seeing a lot of gray are everywhere
I'm just seeing a lot of gray are everywhere
Rant from a long time chaser: No lessons from El Reno?
- Thread starter Matthew Crowther
- Start date
Kevin Rimcoski
EF3
What Adam has said is more or less where I'm trying to get at. I'm a noob, but being so I'm looking at everyone here as more experienced than I and learning what I can from everyone. Sure some people just want to one-up the other for a quick road to their 15 seconds of fame. So bit it, they'll be another unknown entity short after. What I'm trying to get at is of you like getting close and it's a personal thing, then that's all it is. Just because one does it does not make someone any less capable or not as good of a chaser or anything by that means.
But I do have an issue with those getting close based only on wanting to one-up, and bragging rights and their only knowledge of chasing is using radarscope.
Others will disagree and that's fine. For me, it's about the experience like Adam. I don't care what someone else will think of it. That's just how I have always been since a very young age.
Besides, with anything else in life and not just chasing, you'll never be able to make everyone happy with you. You can t please anyone so why bother trying? You can do what makes you happy and a few people might get their noses in your business, or you can try to cater to what everyone else thinks and make yourself miserable and even still someone will still find a way to judge you
But I do have an issue with those getting close based only on wanting to one-up, and bragging rights and their only knowledge of chasing is using radarscope.
Others will disagree and that's fine. For me, it's about the experience like Adam. I don't care what someone else will think of it. That's just how I have always been since a very young age.
Besides, with anything else in life and not just chasing, you'll never be able to make everyone happy with you. You can t please anyone so why bother trying? You can do what makes you happy and a few people might get their noses in your business, or you can try to cater to what everyone else thinks and make yourself miserable and even still someone will still find a way to judge you
Warren Faidley
Supporter
Yea, I agree. I fully support a person's right to chase and as a Journalist I would raise hell if someone tried to stop it. But there is a middle ground where people can put themselves at risk (as we all do -- to multiple levels) and going over the top by endangering others and pissing off the authorities to the point where the hammer falls on all of us.
It's not so much about the risk.... but the way the risk is performed.
W.
It's not so much about the risk.... but the way the risk is performed.
W.
Ryan McGinnis
EF5
There is never a reason to (intentionally) chase like a moron, and there is no need to have a legitimate reason to chase. There are as many reasons for chasing as there are chasers, and there is no body of people who gets to decide why one reason is worth more than another.
As someone who has been chasing for a relatively short 14 years, I get tired of peeps who've been chasing for decades crying crocodile tears about how impossible it is to chase these days because of all these new, stupid chasers. If you didn't want this to happen, you shouldn't have made it look so damn cool and lucrative. The barrier to entry is incredibly low compared to other adventurist hobbies. To the untrained initiate, all it seems to take is a car and a phone and a little courage, and most people have at least two of those things laying around.
Stan Rose
EF5
I wont speak for Warren, Ryan, but my tears aren't crocodile tears--they're good-ol fashioned honest real tears *sob* Now get the heck off my roads and let me chase in peace. 
Brett Roberts
EF5
Warren, I respect you as a veteran chaser with far more experience than most of us here. With that being said, here's my issue with this post. You've highlighted a wide array of beefs you have with one particular chaser whom you blame almost exclusively for the current state of chasing affairs.
However, this thread is specifically about the issue of safe vs. unsafe chasing, as far as I can tell. Unsafe chasing appears to be one among numerous grievances you (along with many in the "veteran" crowd) have against him. If you want to critique the safety of his chasing practices, you're free to do so, just as he's free to continue practicing them. But it gets tiresome when all the other baggage gets brought in and we start conflating issues. We get it: many in the veteran/pre-2000 crowd don't like his personality, his self-promotion, his dealings with the media, how he's influenced newer chasers, and just about every other facet of his life that even tangentially relates to storm chasing. That's fine, and while I generally don't agree, there are a few particular criticisms I do understand. Regardless, if this "elite"/"veteran" contingent wants to be taken seriously in its efforts to influence the broader chase community, I think it's important that they at least be accurate and precise in their critiques and take care to avoid hypocrisy. Unfortunately, in my personal opinion, even some of the most esteemed veterans have failed to do so on a regular basis.
The fact that certain high-profile chasers bring their girlfriends on chases doesn't really have any bearing on the issue at hand; nor do their business dealings, including how said dealings have affected the businesses of certain veterans; nor does their past conduct as college students; nor does the fact that perhaps they've witnessed a lot more quality tornadoes than the average veteran over the past 10-15 years. It seems, though, that all of the above (and many additional side issues) play a non-negligible role in the overwhelming criticism we hear season after season nowadays, whether explicitly or implicitly. I'm a graduate student in the field who tends to favor structure over the close shot, so I really don't have a vested interest in "defending" controversial tactics nor their practitioners. More than anything, I'm just a passionate chaser caught somewhere between the "veteran" crowd and the post-Discovery crowd who sympathizes with aspects of both viewpoints, but notes a lot more hypocrisy and conflating of issues on one side of the fence.
Dan Robinson
EF5
I guess I just don't get where exactly chasing is being ruined or tarnished. I see a chaser make a semi-dangerous driving move about once every 2 years. The mega-jams happen about as often. The rest of the time, I'm not seeing any issues whatsoever. I'm not saying there aren't bad apples out there, but come on - they're a minute fraction of all of us, and they aren't having any impact on my chasing at least and certainly not on any LEO, EMT or local.
Again - I posted my full dashcam videos from Bennington and Rozel chases in the other thread. My El Reno video's been out there for a while as well. Aside from the close call at El Reno, find me some reason to believe that "the end is near" in any of those videos. No traffic problems, no blocked roads, no crazy chaser behavior. This is all a faux outrage, based only on Spotter Network icons and Wichita media reports. In reality, it doesn't exist but in very rare cases once every 2 years. I'm sorry, but that doesn't meet my definition of a crisis. Show me some real evidence of problems. We've all got cameras, post your video.
Again - I posted my full dashcam videos from Bennington and Rozel chases in the other thread. My El Reno video's been out there for a while as well. Aside from the close call at El Reno, find me some reason to believe that "the end is near" in any of those videos. No traffic problems, no blocked roads, no crazy chaser behavior. This is all a faux outrage, based only on Spotter Network icons and Wichita media reports. In reality, it doesn't exist but in very rare cases once every 2 years. I'm sorry, but that doesn't meet my definition of a crisis. Show me some real evidence of problems. We've all got cameras, post your video.
Ryan McGinnis
EF5
I wont speak for Warren, Ryan, but my tears aren't crocodile tears--they're good-ol fashioned honest real tears *sob* Now get the heck off my roads and let me chase in peace.
Well, fair enough, I don't mean to say that veteran chasers aren't legitimately annoyed by how the hobby has changed. Sir Edmund Hillary was quite vocal about how frustrated he was with what a circus climbing Everest is today. But in my mind, to a great extent, that kind of thing is not avoidable. Chasing is popular now. Sure, that can be frustrating, but why spend so much energy trying to figure out who to yell at? In my mind, even with the hordes, I'm glad I'm chasing today and not 30 years ago. It's safer (live, high resolution radar products, much safer vehicles, phone communications systems that work anywhere, GPS mapping, GPS emergency services integration, and on and on and on), it's more fun (infinitely better cameras, 1080p video cameras bundled into your phone, freaking cinema quality movie cameras available at price points that a normal person could save up and buy, smart drones, a community that can share and talk to each other easily more than once a year, public interest in what we do, and on and on and on), and it's easier (endless free data products, much better global and mesoscale forecasting models, computers, phones, GPS, and on and on and on...). I don't see today's chasing as a crap show at all. Yeah, we aren't all the special little snowflakes we used to be and some of our little monopolies on B-list fame or media licensing have evaporated or been supplanted by others, but that's the way it goes. Yeah, some guys are chasing in ways that are spectacularly, hilariously calculated to create a caricature of the worst cliches that people will pay them good money to be. Yeah, there are so many peeps doing it now that you have to factor them in when chasing. But does any of that make the sky any less magnificent when you're looking up the barrel of a dryline mothership in Kansas? It doesn't for me.
Shane Adams
I'm very boring and safe. It doesn't take much to entertain me. I've never understood people who have to live life with their hair on fire 24/7, but more power to them. However, I've never understood why those types feel the need to riducle people like me who live safe. I live safe because not much interests me, so I really don't do a lot. I try to keep myself alive so I can see and videotape as many tornadoes from however many miles away as I can. But when I KNOW the tornado is just around the bend, behind the rain, over the hill, or right in front of me but I'll lose glass to stay and get the shot.....I'll take the chance. But unlike the mavericks, I need that guarantee. I won't risk my life for a maybe, or a situation where "maybe" I'll get away with it. If I can SEE the tornado, I'll get as close as anyone. Except I'll be static, on a tripod, standing outside. I won't waste an entire tornado lifecycle with shitty, bouncy, through-windshield video trying to get within a couple hundred yards, but if the tornado is approaching my location, I'll get outside, on a tripod, and shoot video worthy of the tornado experience itself. If that only happens a few times every decade, so be it.
I like to watch tornadoes on video, especially the ones I shoot. I never give a damn what the distance is. I just like to see them in motion. The "rush" of nearly dying goes away, and not long after the experience. Then, the tornado itself is forgotten as the individual seeks out the next adrenaline, near-death rush....like a potent narcotic. At this point it's not about the tornado at all, but the rush of nearly dying. There's easier ways to get that rush, and that's not why I chase. My videos will tell the same exact stories in 30 years my memory stopped telling long before. Nobody experienced my "rushes" in life, so those stories will just kill a few minutes at a party. My library of videos tell every important moment of my chasing story, and the story never changes because video doesn't lie, exaggerate......or forget.
My style of chasing (taking what the storm gives me) has devolved in the eyes of the community over the years into a boring, laughable snoozefest because I'm 5 miles from the tornado. But there's shit going on above the tornado that you never see when you're right next to it, and the visuals of those processes are as much of an adernaline rush for me as trying to risk one's life simply because the person doesn't care whether they live or die from day to day. And why would you risk your life for the same shot you can get safely with a zoomed shot? That's like paying $10/lb for hamburger because it came from a "special" cow, while the next guy is buying it for $5 from the "regular" cow. After you cook it, it's just a burger.
I like to watch tornadoes on video, especially the ones I shoot. I never give a damn what the distance is. I just like to see them in motion. The "rush" of nearly dying goes away, and not long after the experience. Then, the tornado itself is forgotten as the individual seeks out the next adrenaline, near-death rush....like a potent narcotic. At this point it's not about the tornado at all, but the rush of nearly dying. There's easier ways to get that rush, and that's not why I chase. My videos will tell the same exact stories in 30 years my memory stopped telling long before. Nobody experienced my "rushes" in life, so those stories will just kill a few minutes at a party. My library of videos tell every important moment of my chasing story, and the story never changes because video doesn't lie, exaggerate......or forget.
My style of chasing (taking what the storm gives me) has devolved in the eyes of the community over the years into a boring, laughable snoozefest because I'm 5 miles from the tornado. But there's shit going on above the tornado that you never see when you're right next to it, and the visuals of those processes are as much of an adernaline rush for me as trying to risk one's life simply because the person doesn't care whether they live or die from day to day. And why would you risk your life for the same shot you can get safely with a zoomed shot? That's like paying $10/lb for hamburger because it came from a "special" cow, while the next guy is buying it for $5 from the "regular" cow. After you cook it, it's just a burger.
Stan Rose
EF5
Maybe I unnecessarily let it affect me, but it does for me. Your Everest analogy is spot on for me (as an ex-peak bagger) because Hillary makes the point for me that easier is not always better. Call me weird but I preferred chasing without the gadgets, I felt more in touch with ma nature and I enjoyed the challenge. I'm a grizzled old chaser and I won't apologize for it. I personally think the easy-is-awesome attitude is disrespectful. It's the same attitude that ultimately has wiped out a good portion of our environment, put us on the edge of the 6th extinction, etc. The resulting contrails do spoil the sky for me. But you are absolutely correct that the Genie is out and we aint stuffin him back in. Won't stop me from whining about it
Glenn Dixon
EF2
As this conversation moves away from a debate about motivation to a debate about risk vs. consequences, I have to applaud some people for at least being honest. However, there is one aspect of this which puzzles me. Perhaps it is the chutzpah of youth, but I think some people truly believe the B.S. they are slinging. Many talk about their excellent situational awareness, about having their heads on a swivel, as if that somehow protects them or proves them worthy of being close to a tornado in the pitch black of night. I mean, it's good traffic safety, sure. But how this will protect them from a rogue satellite tornado which comes down on top of or next to them, or another El Reno event, or a road blocked by a flash flood -- well, that part escapes me.
So kudos for being honest about knowingly taking extra risk, but please also be honest with yourselves about the fact that your potential death might affect more than just your cat at home. You probably have friends and parents who would be devastated, and you will also potentially draw additional scrutiny and ire from first responders and legislators. And at that point the consequences broaden well beyond the confines of your vehicle.
So kudos for being honest about knowingly taking extra risk, but please also be honest with yourselves about the fact that your potential death might affect more than just your cat at home. You probably have friends and parents who would be devastated, and you will also potentially draw additional scrutiny and ire from first responders and legislators. And at that point the consequences broaden well beyond the confines of your vehicle.
Paul Knightley
EF5
The biggest risk is, surely, driving whilst being distracted by the storm. The amount of 'work' I see people doing in the vehicle (not such an issue when there is more than one of you in the car) is worrying sometimes. People are checking Twitter/FB feeds, looking at radar, maps, etc, whilst trying to maintain situational awareness around the storm and, most important of all, drive a vehicle.
Of course, the above is somewhat O/T within this thread but it's all part of the same 'risk management'. Apart from the human tragedy of losing a fellow chaser, my only real concern on the way other people chase is how or whether it will impact upon my chasing - indeed, will it? If more people get killed or injured whilst chasing will the authorities try to impose any kind of limit? In reality this seems almost impossible to legislate and enforce, so perhaps that argument ends up being a null one. So we come back to the human tragedy side of things. Yes, there are many well respected and very experienced chasers who get up close and personal, and are probably (mostly) fairly safe in doing so - but others may then try to replicate this. Yes, this is then their choice but if they have decided to do it because someone else has (and has put this imagery all over the internet) then is there any kind come back? Again, probably not, because people are free to try to replicate someone else's behaviour if they so desire. So perhaps it comes down to trying to educate less experienced chasers about the dangers of the chase - if nothing else, just to be human about this.
The biggest question of all is: Is storm chasing really worth dying for? I doubt it.
Of course, the above is somewhat O/T within this thread but it's all part of the same 'risk management'. Apart from the human tragedy of losing a fellow chaser, my only real concern on the way other people chase is how or whether it will impact upon my chasing - indeed, will it? If more people get killed or injured whilst chasing will the authorities try to impose any kind of limit? In reality this seems almost impossible to legislate and enforce, so perhaps that argument ends up being a null one. So we come back to the human tragedy side of things. Yes, there are many well respected and very experienced chasers who get up close and personal, and are probably (mostly) fairly safe in doing so - but others may then try to replicate this. Yes, this is then their choice but if they have decided to do it because someone else has (and has put this imagery all over the internet) then is there any kind come back? Again, probably not, because people are free to try to replicate someone else's behaviour if they so desire. So perhaps it comes down to trying to educate less experienced chasers about the dangers of the chase - if nothing else, just to be human about this.
The biggest question of all is: Is storm chasing really worth dying for? I doubt it.
Ben Holcomb
EF5
There will be no ire from legislators. Maybe first responders, but we are all paid to do a job. Theirs is to respond to emergencies. Mine is to fix computers. If they have to clean up a mangled mess of my car because I got too close and munched by the tornado, so be it. I'm not sure how that's any different than any other death by tornado. Is it just OK to be ignorant and die in your normal stupid boring life routine by a tornado but not OK to do it if you know better? i guess I don't see your point.
Legislators don't care. Dan wrote a great article - Nobody cares http://stormhighway.com/blog/aug0108a.php And he's right. Nobody cares. Chasers have been talking about legislation being written about them for years - but the fact of the matter is, NOBODY CARES. Stop thinking you are more important than you actually are because you aren't. I guarantee less than 1% of the people who actually saw the story about Barber County on the news in Wichita even remember it at this point. In one ear, out the other. It makes great sensationalist news stories. When it comes to actually writing legislation - you guessed it - NOBODY CARES.
I'm not close to any family and while my mom would probably be upset, eventually they would get over it. Friends would be tougher I'm sure, but hopefully they would throw a hell of a funeral (I want to be known for putting the FUN in funeral).
Fact of the matter is, I'm a lot more likely to die from complications from obesity than I am in a tornado, even if I get close on a regular basis.
Ryan McGinnis
EF5
This is true, but some Sheriff's departments, who are suddenly expected to do work they usually don't do, care enough to be jerks to every chaser they see. I do IT for some Sheriffs in my area and a few of them are very much not keen on chasers. Spotters, in their mind, are fine, but they really don't like chasers. The recent Medicine Lodge, KS storm is a good example -- I didn't get pulled, but good God were they having a field day writing tickets for every chase vehicle driver they could find for any reason they could think of. I got a good chuckle from the Sheriff slowly rolling up and down the highway, yelling into his truck's PA: "GET THE HELL OFF THE ROAD! YOU'RE GOING TO CAUSE AN ACCIDENT! GET OFF THE ROAD NOW! DO YOU WANT TO SPEND A NIGHT IN JAIL! MOVE, GODDAMMIT!"
So, yeah, nobody is going to write any laws, but if your rural Sheriff is used to the highlight of his day being the third loose dog complaint, a chaser convergence might attract attention you don't want.
Jason Boggs
EF5
And that's the problem with so many things in this world today......the simple fact that nobody cares.
I'm not sure where this nobody cares concept is coming from. I guess it's just the younger generation that thinks like this. Hmmm...
I'm not sure where this nobody cares concept is coming from. I guess it's just the younger generation that thinks like this. Hmmm...
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