Rant from a long time chaser: No lessons from El Reno?

[ngjere]

Perhaps rdale. Sorry if some people took my comments out of context. My point was simply this: The percentage of people who believe they are "chasers" simply because they have a smartphone app at the ready increases exponentially each year it seems. It becomes a "cheap thrill" for many who believe (because of slick editing) they can just drop into the core of any storm and pop out the other side, none the worse for wear. Are any of us in the position of casting judgement on these individuals? Nope, cause we were all in that situation ourselves at one time or another whether we wanted to be or not.

And we learned from the experience.

But there are plenty out there who "Don't know what they don't know." They're neither willing to "pay their dues" nor educate themselves like many of us who participate here on the forums. And when we're all sharing a storm is not the time to find out the person driving in the lane next to you hasn't a clue and is simply following your lead hoping you do. I'm willing to accept the consequences of my own actions but not when those actions are caused by the ignorance of others.

I have great respect for every chaser who takes the time to participate in the discussion and is willing to share and learn from it.

As to chasing "styles"? we all have our own personal tolerances for risk and I'm sure they change continuously based on the environment, circumstances, and knowledge level. And as I said, no one really has the right to judge one from the other.

What I don't think has been addressed is whether the "aggressive" chasers in our lot are willing to identify themselves as such so as if something were to occur, it would be made clear to emergency responders and fellow chasers to triage other victims first prior to attending to them.

 

[Todd Rector]

Forgetting completely about the "let natural selection do its work" component, my long-term fear is that even small numbers of highway deaths due to a defined cause are subject to intense scrutiny and subsequent attempts at regulation. It will be interesting to see where we are ten years from now.

 

[Chip Redmond]

Much of what has been discussed isn't anything new, nor just something that has started in the last few years. Chasing is dangerous, period. Whether you are punching the core of a supercell, playing in the bears cage, or twenty miles away from the supercell - you can be killed. Something that I think people are forgetting is that when you chose to chase, you are putting yourself at risk no matter your placement. When you consider technology and the ability to scrutinize from a long distance without ever being there, folks don't think about these associated dangers - most not even with the storm itself. Let them rant about it and post all the images they want, but long story short, the public and others have heard it a gazillion times. I can't imagine another episode of it will change their opinion on chasing...AKA, noone cares.

I think Sunday is a perfect example. We bailed on the last supercell (after a very frustrating day) as it became stationary. We decided we didn't want to chance the baseballs and to go back west and then north to Wichita Falls. However, we ended up getting cored by another storm that developed near Stephenville. It was downright nasty. Visibility was zero and we were forced off the road and waited it out in a parking lot (you can see it HERE). I am more than willing to bet, with the exception of the hail size, that this was likely worse than what many of the chasers experience in the hook of the stalled supercell. Noone notices these things though because all eyes were focused eastward.

Storm chasing, you take a risk. That risk is influenced by skill, ability, and just flat out luck. All are valid whether you are in the path of a tornado or not.

Chip

 

[Shane Adams]

I don't want to see anyone lose their life chasing

I don't either. But honestly, I've lost the ability to care when it happens again.

 

[Shane Adams]

I disagree that chasing is "dangerous" in general. It's actually quite safe, if done a certain way. I'm fine with letting all the maverick guys run rampant in cores and RFDs and circulations and all of that....but don't broadbrush the activity of chasing convection as "dangerous" because some of you choose to make it so. Some people are in it for the pure visual aspects. Granted, there are built-in dnagers to chasing, but they are road-related, which is a hazard with or without storms. Other than a stray lightning bolt, there's really nothing dangerous about chasing that the individual doesn't choose to make dangerous.

So when I see people write/say "chasing is dangerous" I'm always going to correct them. No it's not. It's dangerous for some people. I'm a happy person. I enjoy existing. I want to prolong that existence as much as possible. I don't need adrenaline to feel alive. I don't need to nearly die to appreciate the fact I'm not dead. The stresses, pressures, and anxiety of dangerous chasing are never even on my mindas far as "this is just anothger part of my chase day." I can't fathom how some of you go into any chase with the mindset that "I could die today, but oh well" just for a rush. But that's the adrenaline junkie, which I am not. No matter, the point is, chasing is not "just dangerous" in general.

 

[Jeremy.Degenhart]

I can't stand this mentality. Instead of complaining about people "learning nothing from El Reno", why not just learn what you can and leave other people alone? It's a free country. It's a hobby with hazards. People will die. The only complaints I have are the chasers that have hit other chasers and drive like total morons. If I get killed by a tornado, so be it. We all know and take that risk willingly. But I'm not OK with morons that shouldn't even have a drivers' license out there wrecking guys that aren't doing anything wrong. Those are the actions that this forum needs to be calling out.

The Monday morning QB mentality gets old really fast. It's mostly people on the periphery of the so-called "chaser community" that want to talk crap, anyway.

TL;DR: Chase how you want. Don't break laws. Don't drive like an idiot.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I just realized this thread has sprouted several branches of topics. It's so hard to say anything without being misinterpreted in these situations, but I'll try here.

I don't advocate intentionally going into a dangerous situation for any reason. I don't go out on chases with a fatalistic attitude looking for trouble or shrugging off death. I don't advocate chasing close to circulations at night, driving blindly into an HP core or playing close to huge tornadoes on days with El Reno-like environments. I personally won't do any of those things, especially the 3rd one now. I've said that before.

Getting to within 1/4 to 1/2 mile of slow-moving, highly-visible small to medium sized tornadoes is not dangerous with good road options, and I WILL continue to do that when I get the opportunity. Mulvane, Bennington, Pilger, etc. I don't want the danger, I want the high-contrast, crisp photo/video. I want to hear the sound. That doesn't mean some extremely rare one couldn't do something unexpected. If that 1 in 100,000 chance happens and I'm the unfortunate one, don't call it a tragedy. But also don't call it ruining storm chasing when I or Reed Timmer do it.

Compared to other things like whitewater rafting, skydiving, mountain climbing, skiing, etc, I find these discussions quite ridiculous sometimes. I posted my whole Bennington chase dashcam footage in the other thread. Can you watch that and honestly say that things like that constitute "ruining chasing"?

 

[Stan Rose]

To be clear, I have zero problem with people doing crazy things so long as it doesn't endanger me. But I'll still call it for what it is--crazy, and usually stupid. I dislike stupidity in general.

 

[Stan Rose]

... not once did I feel unsafe....
...lost my windshield....

Not gonna be a hypocrite, Ben, cause ive lost windshields and sped, but can you reconcile these two statements fro me? Cause the two times I got busted windshields I felt unsafe, and I felt I had made a mistake being in a bad place. Glass can do some serious harm to you when it breaks up in shards. So it's hard for me to understand how you can maintain these two positions.
Are you that good that you can maneuver around the baseballs and just get hit by the golfballs?

 

[Warren Faidley]

Warren, I can agree with you in part. I'm annoyed that Reed is seen as the front-man of chasing by the public and by many newcomers in the hobby, when in reality he's simply doing the same thing that many of us have been doing all along. I always wished that people like Tim Marshall, David Hoadley, et al, would be the world's go-to people when it comes to storm chasing and tornadoes. Reed's just managed to win the PR side of things whereas you and me probably couldn't care less if we ever became rich or famous doing it. I can't speak for Reed, but I'd assume he would still do what he does even if he wasn't rich and famous. I'm one of the happiest guys in the world to have the life I do, even though I drive a Yaris and live in a three-star $500/month apartment in a small Midwestern town.

Where I disagree with you, Warren, is when you say Reed's style of chasing is somehow different, and in particular, that it's ruining storm chasing. I was right with him on the Bennington day, we were passing each other on multiple occasions within 1/4 mile of the tornado (you can see that in my dashcam video here). I consider my Bennington experience to be one of the highlights of my life, not just in chasing. To me, there is nothing as incredible as being within 1/4 mile of a tornado like that. If I had been killed by the Bennington tornado, assuming it would have been a relatively quick and painless death, I would have died a happy man and would not have wanted people to consider it a tragedy.

As someone who has chased as a business for well over 25 years, I have to disagree about Mr. Timmer.

He has dominated the media for over 8 years and he is the face and spokesperson for storm chasing. He’s had multiple opportunities to speak up. He could refund the money he’s begged for and denounce the “getting too close” for research based chasing. He could move on to becoming a top notch and genuine researcher. He’s obviously a sharp, aggressive guy who could do a lot for meteorology.

Don’t hold your breath.

You can thank the lame ass media for drinking the Kool-Aid and their failure to present any other side of storm chasing, e.g., the bulk of responsible chasers and spotters. According to the media, we are all out of control kooks who line the roads and our pockets by deceptive methods. The Weather Channel is mostly to blame. However, they too eventually learned their lesson after their own crew was caught up in the stupidity / invincibility craze that we now see on a regular basis.

The current problem DID NOT stem from responsible storm chaser portrayals or magical unicorns. Some people might be uncomfortable dissecting a hero, but you cannot ignore reality or shift the blame to some other entity. I talk to so many writers and media people who are simply spineless and afraid to tackle reality or the individual who sparked the current problems.

In the course of my work, I'm constantly involved in media, television, Internet media, EMS, Universities (lectures) advertisers, chasers, spotters and the list goes on and on. Many of you are aware of the serious issues I've had with authorities and commercial interests over the years when I was mistaken for Mr. Timmer or when I was somehow lumped into the same group of buffoons. I've lost several lucrative contracts and it's all but impossible now days to find any sponsors or advertising gigs because no one wants to risk a PR nightmare over what they see on television or envision storm chasing to be. I remind everyone that national commercials featuring storm chaser(s) have been pulled from television after they were deemed “insensitive.” To most chasers this does not matter and I fully understand, but the poop is beginning to seep down to everyone and some chasers are becoming detached from history and forget who initiated this mess. This is when people start pointing fingers and blaming each other as we have recently seen in ST discussions

For example: If I indeed had "life saving" research capabilities or data, I would fill my rolling coffin with the nation's top researchers to present my conclusions as soon as possible. I would not fill my vehicle with camera crews, Jim Cantore, girlfriends and buddies. If I thought for a second that the research I've been gathering / claiming with my toy rockets and mystery radar had the potential to indeed save lives, I would focus my entire life on it, not spending countless hours generating income from non-scientific projects. I remind everyone that Mr. Timmer has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars based partially on the underlying premise of such life saving research. He WILL be held accountable for this someday.

So why does all this matter? We have an entire generation of new chasers who are bewitched into believing there is this fantasy world of mouth-watering storm chasing opportunities. They see an unchallenged methodology to deceive the public in order to make money and chase without scrutiny or law enforcement intervention. There is no argument that new chasers are popping up all over who want to use some illogical scientific project to legitimize their pursuits. People are emulating what they have witnessed on TV and think it's legitimate because the media approves it. They are energized and fearless while getting way too close for no actual scientific or heroic purpose. So who does this sound like?

Fake it till you make it.

W.

 

[Ryan McGinnis]

Much of what has been discussed isn't anything new, nor just something that has started in the last few years. Chasing is dangerous, period.

I wonder if this is really true? I mean, there are vary levels of danger, and common sense would make one believe that chasing ought to be dangerous given the nature of what we do. But statistics would seem to indicate otherwise. Chaser fatalities are generally automobile related -- which is to say, driving is dangerous, full stop. Driving in adverse weather is even more dangerous. Driving in adverse weather is something people do all the time, and often for reasons less compelling than trying to find a tornado. The only chaser fatalities related to tornado impact were people who were intentionally pushing the very limits of chase safety. (I am not saying that Tim wasn't a safety conscious chaser, I'm saying that the things amazing Tim was trying to accomplish were extraordinarily difficult and required levels of risk that would make a lot of chasers soil themselves.) After that, lightning is dangerous, though rarely, it seems, fatal for chasers. Still, don't stand next to David Drummond.

I do think that the day is coming, and probably soon, where a whole mess of chasers bunched up on a highway will get to take a fun and fatal tumble through a few hundred yards of farmfield. We are starting to push the limits of common sense when it comes to chaser convergence. But I don't think there is much we can do about other people -- we can only, as individuals, pay really close attention to the chasers around us and try not to get caught in a pack. The problem is that the packs are usually where you'd want to be. Humans, when thinking in parallel, can crack some tough nuts. If all you did was look at Spotter Network and drive to where everyone was bunched up, you'd probably see a lot of tornadoes.

 

[Chip Redmond]

I fully understand the points made @Shane Adams and @Ryan McGinnis. By dangerous, I meant the whole shebang of things, especially driving, deer, ticks, bolts from the blue, flooding, you name it. After all, driving is on the top ten jobs labelled "most dangerous". I didn't mean just meteorologically hazardous. However, when putting yourself in position to see/observe a severe thunderstorm, you are taking a thought out risk (albeit educated or not). If you were avoiding all hazards of thunderstorms, you would be sheltering in place.

I try not to consider chaser fatalities/injuries. The very small amount of which have been subject to life/death situations (whether intended or not) has never been statistically analyzed (that I know of) and is likely impossible to do so I'd think.

The consideration of "dangerous" is very subjective - that is just my opinion.

Chip

 

[joel ewing]

I'm with Shane 110% on this. I just don't care anymore, and that's out of character for me. How many more times does this subject have to be discussed? I've seen this country turn into a land filled with whiny-activists....who think absolutely nothing of sticking their noses in your personal business. Look, some chaser(s) is gonna meet with a very unpleasant death by mixing chasing with poor decision making, we all know it. Nothing we say or do at this point can mitigate this, as it's all been said already. Matt, PLEASE don't think I'm calling you out on this. You've LONG been a worthy, intelligent member of our chase community, and a gentleman to boot. I know your heart is in the right place on this.
I love chasing at night. If there's a severe/tornadic storm near me at night, I won't be able to sleep anyway. I have long had the goal of capturing an ass-kickin' night-time / lightning illuminated tornado photo. This photo has eluded me for decades. Now, sometimes our personal chase goals can make us do foolish things. Storm chasing has almost taken my life more than a few times, and I don't say that to be melodramatic. Two incidents immediately come to my mind:
May 16th 1992.....near Creighton, Nebraska (Knox Co.) Well after dark, an elephant-trunk tornado on the ground chased me up a farmer's driveway...a farmer that I had never met! Slamming my chase vehicle into park, I flung the door open and ran thru baseball-sized hail up to his porch. I pounded on his door for seemingly forever, and I could see an old guy and his wife thru the door glass, but they couldn't hear me due to the hail, I guess. With the tornado coming to the edge of their farm, I elected to just barge in. The door flew open and they looked up at me, confused. The old guy in his bib overalls kind of smiled, raised his hand as if to wave, and said "hey...don't I know you??!!. "NO" I yelled, and explained myself. Totally unaware of the tornado, I finally convinced him to dive down into the basement with me. The elderly wife never did come down, because she first "needed to find her knitting before she would agree to come down." Both were very, very senile, and probably in their 90's. The tornado came right thru their field, grinding up their pivot irrigation systems, and narrowly missing hitting the house. I read later in Storm Data it was rated F-2.
About 4-5 yrs. ago I took a direct hit from (my estimation) a low-end EF-1 while parked in the middle of nowhere in north central Nebraska, on the border of Holt and Rock Counties, Nebraska at approx. 11pm. I had a brand-new-never-rented-before Ford Explorer SUV. This tornado flipped a 53foot semi (the biggest ones you see on the highway, usually) that was very close to me. This tornado actually drove pieces of corn stalks, small branches and green leafy vegetation into the vehicle in unbelievable ways. The power windows were completely up and the doors shut 100% when I got hit. The vegetation was somehow crammed past the door jambs and into the vehicle, and all kinds of other stuff was driven past the closed window glass and their "fuzzy" insulation.....and even past the vehicle's tailgate-jambs! I DO have photos to prove this! Once I realized I was getting hit by tornadic wind...I laid down on the seat, still completely seat-belted in behind the steering wheel, and soon felt the vehicle begin to lift up a bit. It raised itself up high enough so that it extended the struts and shocks totally as high as they could go. Ohhhh..I just KNEW that SUV was gonna launch into the air and I would be killed. My emotion at the time? I was exceedingly angry at myself, because I figured that I'd finally made my wife a widow (obviously not the 1st. time I'd "screwed the pooch")....and I had nobody to blame except myself...AGAIN. Mercifully, the SUV didn't become airborne, which was a flat-out miracle in itself. Believe me..... it was hell trying to get it looking like "new" again the next morning before I turned it back into the rental company. OK, so what's my point here?? In these 2 close-calls...it was my LAST evening in the alley, so I gave myself permission to GET GREEDY + PUSH THE LIMITS, over-riding my more experienced judgment. As I said earlier...probably 100% of my "close calls in chasing" have been MY FAULT. I hope that someone reading this might remember my words when faced with a similar decision during their chase season. Please use your head out there in the field, folks.

 

[James Gustina]

The fear of ruining a hobby for everyone else seems to be the continual driving factor in this, along with the fear of the ever-elusive legislation that is likely never going to come. Having opinions are what makes life fun, but trying to project opinions like this is the definition of "telling people how to chase".

That said, I don't personally find nighttime chasing or getting into the notch objectionable. If I'm not there sitting next to the guy 1/4 mile from the mesocyclone then I'm not going to pass judgment on what the situation is and what his plan is as the meso approaches. Everyone has a different cup of tea when it comes to how they go about chasing severe convection, but I've yet to see any proof that there's a wrong way to do it.

 

[Matthew Crowther]

OK, several replies were 'I know what I am doing'. Gee, do you think Tim Samaras and crew knew what they were doing?