Rant from a long time chaser: No lessons from El Reno?

[Todd Rector]

I would at least go so far as to say @Ben Holcomb knows what he is doing and could probably chase after dark with relative safety (no comment on the lost windshield). It's the guys hanging out their car windows recording video on cellphone while their girlfriend drives from the passenger seat into the HP unknown that really scare me.

 

[Ben Holcomb]

Why does it scare you, though? Is it because you're scared someone you seemingly admittedly don't know may die? If so, the highway is one hell of a scary place for you I'm sure.

Honestly, as long as they aren't in my way I don't care how people chase.

 

[Jeff Duda]

This is nothing new. There were close calls last year, too. I think some people just don't care at this point...the possibility of Twitter/FB/CNN fame far outweighs the fear of being hurt by being too close and getting mauled by the bear.

Edit: seeing a few responses, I see there are chasers who will admit to it just being plain ol' fun. I don't think you can attack that position at all. If someone is willing to accept the risk of getting that close and at the same time feels comfortable enough reading their surrounding environment, I don't see what anyone can do to stop them, nor do I think they deserved to be chastised or called out.

Of course, should one of them die placing themselves too close, you won't see me lamenting it. Sure, accidents happen, but your chance of having a fatal one goes up the more danger you place yourself in. After the passing of Tim, Paul, and Carl, there's really no excuse for getting killed anymore (not that there ever really was, but most chasers probably didn't think that seriously about it until the day those three died). I won't shed another tear over a chaser death from 1 June 2013 and on.

Add on: I saw one or two posts on FB calling chasers out. They bothered me because I was also playing it pretty close that night. I hook sliced and core rubbed that supercell, not because I was trying to have fun or get "the shot", but because I had pretty much called off the chase, was no longer trying to see a tornado, and was trying to take the highway I was on home. It was the only reasonable route within 20 miles, and backtracking would've 1) cost us at least an hour, and 2) wasn't a guaranteed safe route as there were other tornado warned storms off to the northwest. We had our heads on swivels and were also reading the winds and using lightning to guide us to minimize the chance of something going wrong. So seeing someone I don't know basically calling me out personally irritated me. Kinda made me want to reply to that post: "if you weren't out there being endangered by these chasers, then shut the f--k up about it." (I didn't, but now you all know what I was thinking).

 

[rdale]

Let's compare the number of chaser deaths on the roads in Texas in the past week versus the number of non-chaser deaths on the roads in the past week...

http://accidentdatacenter.com/us/texas

 

[Sean Ramsey]

I have played a couple of storms closer than I normally would (west of Wheeler & Hereford) and a lot of it has to do with slow storm motions and where I felt comfortable as well, especially since they were daytime storms. I usually drop off at night simply because I roll solo and don't really get much from night chasing. I don't blame others for doing it, and many have the experience to do so and that's cool. Is there an increase in the number of chasers who feel more comfortable chasing at night, and are they playing closer than ever? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was. There is certainly motivation to stay out and chase closer these days, whether it's worth it or not to us.

 

[Stephen J]

I agree with exactly what Ben said. I was also one of the others that played it "close" Sunday Night, why? Because I enjoy doing what I do. The thrill of chasing for me does not stop when the sun goes down. And like Ben, I did not feel at all in danger while chasing close to nighttime tornadoes. Everyone in our vehicle had our eyes on every direction, and we were confident of our positioning. What I also want to say is, Why does it concern anyone that doesn't chase at night anyways? If you don't chase at night, it shouldn't be any concern to anyone of what I am doing, especially if you are in a hotel or at home behind a computer, my personal risk is not going to affect you in any way.

 

[Todd Rector]

eh... I guess it scares me when people are so dumb they don't know they are dumb. Of course, working for the government I should be used to this.

 

[Ben Holcomb]

I will say there is an element of people who will look and see me in the hook or others positioned in a close proximity and think it is OK to do so. I can't help that nor can I discourage them more than saying do as I say not as I do.

I will say, if we want to get more involved or dig deeper, there are people who are running tour companies this year with little to no experience. This is pretty scary, because people who are paying good money are unknowingly being put in danger due to ignorance of a tour operator.

I would say the flip side is true for me. I understand the risks, I've seen the consequences and I like to gamble. I play the odds, but once in awhile the bet doesn't pan out. It's something I am OK with, but I'm also only leaving behind a cat if the worst should happen.

I would also say that knowing your environment is important. The environment Sunday was pretty good, but not as lethal seeming as the el reno tornado. I play different depending on the setup. El Reno day I bailed when I got cut off by the RFD because I had no idea what was on the other side and didn't want to find out. Sunday I didn't care because driving through the RFD full of extra big ass hail was much worse than whatever might be on the other side

 

[Keith Wilson]

Look at what some folks outside of storm chasing do for giggles, grins, or glory.
It's all about what you are comfortable doing. I wouldn't be comfortable jumping out of a airplane or wrestling alligators, but a lot of folks are. It's none of my business.

 

[Randy Jennings]

I too was in Johnson County long after dark Sunday/early Monday. As I noted in my post in the reports thread, I was in Rio Vista twice, and I didn't feel comfortable there, especially the second time after dark, but that is my comfort level and I don't want to pass judgment on other chasers who have a different threshold. So we went east to Itasca to where we were more comfortable. For what it's worth, I didn't intend to stay out after dark. But the storms were to good to leave and driving north towards DFW in front of the storms was not a good idea, so I decided I should stay a safe distance and make reports as needed. I'm a long time spotter, who just recently admitted I am a chaser - but I'm still a spotter at heart. I stayed in the area and made several reports to the Johnson County Skywarn Net. The spotter in me felt a responsibility to stay.

I too noticed a lot of chasers on SN very close to the cell after dark. My fear is that for every one chaser out there that is experienced - those that can recognize environmental clues, have multiple escape routes, etc - there is likely a ton of folks out there that are inexperienced and shouldn't be that close (even in daylight) Yes, I'm worried about them. Yes, I'm worried about the bad rap chasers will get when someone gets hurt/killed. But I also understand that some chasers risk tolerance is higher than my own.

 

[Tim Paitz]

How many of you monday morning quarterbacks in this thread were actually out Sunday?

I was definitely one of the closer/more daring chasers on Sunday night and not once did I feel unsafe. Me and Jon Stone had great communication in the car, where we were keeping our "heads on a swivel" and paying attention to what could be seen, and observed. We also kept a very close eye on winds, keeping track which direction we were headed and where the winds were coming from.

What was the point of it? I don't know, really. It wasn't for 30 seconds of fame, or to be cool on facebook. It was a hell of a storm and I had a blast chasing and didn't want to stop at sundown.

I'm also one of those horrible people that lost my windshield and I broke speed limits. Might as well throw me in prison for life.

Sunday was one of the best chases I've had in 2 years at least.

Well, you did everything right so there you go. It's important to maintain a situational awareness at night (obviously), not to mention the road network was pretty bad. The only decent north-south road in that area was 144 between glen rose and walnut springs!

 

[Michael R.]

For those asking "Why do you care if I chase after dark?", it's not that I think any of us are passing judgement down on you for doing it, coming from me since I can't speak for everyone, I don't want to see anyone lose their life chasing, and chasing at night to me ups the chance of something happening to a chaser.

 

[Warren Faidley]

Good for you Matt. Thanks for standing up to the stupidity that has destroyed storm chasing. I wish more long-term chasers would stand up, but it's too late now.

I don't believe in-car radar is the lone problem. It's been around for years. The main problems today began years ago when the overall philosophy of storm chasing was hijacked by idiot(s) who were allowed to dictate and define what chasing is while the so-called veterans stood on the sidelines. Getting too close for no actual purpose in addition to acting like morons on TV and social media defined modern chasing for the next generation. It is what it is.

I've said it before, I believe the deaths of chasers will soon become a more frequent reality.

W.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Warren, I can agree with you in part. I'm annoyed that Reed is seen as the front-man of chasing by the public and by many newcomers in the hobby, when in reality he's simply doing the same thing that many of us have been doing all along. I always wished that people like Tim Marshall, David Hoadley, et al, would be the world's go-to people when it comes to storm chasing and tornadoes. Reed's just managed to win the PR side of things whereas you and me probably couldn't care less if we ever became rich or famous doing it. I can't speak for Reed, but I'd assume he would still do what he does even if he wasn't rich and famous. I'm one of the happiest guys in the world to have the life I do, even though I drive a Yaris and live in a three-star $500/month apartment in a small Midwestern town.

Where I disagree with you, Warren, is when you say Reed's style of chasing is somehow different, and in particular, that it's ruining storm chasing. I was right with him on the Bennington day, we were passing each other on multiple occasions within 1/4 mile of the tornado (you can see that in my dashcam video here). I consider my Bennington experience to be one of the highlights of my life, not just in chasing. To me, there is nothing as incredible as being within 1/4 mile of a tornado like that. If I had been killed by the Bennington tornado, assuming it would have been a relatively quick and painless death, I would have died a happy man and would not have wanted people to consider it a tragedy.

When it comes to El Reno - and I sometimes debate whether I should say this on a public forum - I feel that Tim, Paul and Carl would have likely not wanted people to see what happened as tragic. I tend to think that if they had managed to make it through and pulled up beside me, they probably would have had smiles on their faces once the fear of the situation had subsided. They probably would have wanted to celebrate with a huge steak dinner when they learned that the tornado was an EF-5, that it was the largest in history and that they had the privilege of seeing it from the angle that they and I did. The only reason I have suppressed my tendency to feel that way myself about it is because of what their families have had to go through. There is nothing good about what their deaths have left behind in the lives of those closest to them.

I have to admit that I get somewhat annoyed at they hyperbolic way that you, Matt, Chuck Doswell and others tend to approach this subject. I respect you and the longtime veteran chasers as some of the best and most important in the hobby, and can agree with a lot of what you're saying. I hope you are not offended to hear me say that because again, I consider you a highly respected colleague. I just wish some of you guys would back off on some of the apocalyptic hyperbole. I'm not saying that all is perfect in the chasing world. I'm saying that just like with KAKE and the Wichita Eagle, It's really not as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

 

[David Reimer]

Nothing I can say here would convince anyone not to do something stupid while out chasing. I've done my fair share of stupid things and I try to learn from them. If an experienced chaser wants to get up close and personal who am I to call them a moron? With that said - I fully expect chasers to die down the road because they got to close and lost situational awareness (a May 31 situation). If you want to chase aggressively that's fine with me - but don't expect me to shed a tear if you get yourself killed doing something stupid. I would feel for your family and relatives though. In fact I'll probably use that situation to explain to new chasers the inherent dangers of getting too close and that many times its for the sake of getting 'the shot' for personal or professional purposes.

So I'm not going to come in here and tell anyone how to chase. You're all adults and most here have been chasing for a while. My goal is to help the next generation of chasers realize you don't have to be within half a mile of a tornado to enjoy it.

 

[Brett Roberts]

There are countless specific issues related to this general topic; many have already been raised, and there are plenty more that haven't. One I want to focus on in particular is this phenomenon wherein someone on social media, usually a non-chaser, posts screen grabs of a radar app with SN icons overlaid accompanied by a snarky one-liner about "stupid chasers" and such.

I saw one of these on Twitter Sunday night during the Celburne event, apparently originating from a TV news personality (though I'm not sure of that). I've seen many others over the past several years from various sources -- but, again, the common denominator seems to be that the authors either aren't chasers or are very casual, infrequent chasers.

This type of post is either appallingly ignorant, cynically sensationalistic, or both. At this point, this bandwagon trend is becoming so tiresome that if there were a way to reach through the screen and slap offenders, I'd pay to do it. Only someone with little to no experience chasing real storms would presume to know the relative danger of a chaser's position based solely on radar and SN data, given that:

1. Both the radar data and SN positions may be several minutes old; the differential between the two may be even larger.
2. Any given SN user's position may not have updated for even longer, owing to a lack of cellular data coverage; or their GPS may not be accurate.
3. The magnitude of horizontal displacement between the tornado (or, in some cases, mesocyclone) center at the beam height versus the ground can't reasonably be known in real-time, nor can even L2 SuperRes data identify the precise location of the tornado for all but the largest ones. (For example, the relatively broad circulations sampled by KFWS near Cleburne on Sunday evening, which proved not to be in contact with the ground per survey information released today).
4. Visibility, precipitation wrapping (or lack thereof), road conditions and surrounding chaser traffic, etc. can't reasonably be known by anyone who isn't there (except, perhaps, if there's a good stream in the precise area you're complaining about).

...and many other reasons I'll decline to waste my time enumerating here.

Whether there's a problem within the chase community of some getting too close in situations that warrant more caution (HPs, fast movers, after dark, etc.) is immaterial; I happen to think there is, to some extent, even though it doesn't particularly bother me or affect my own chasing. But even if that's happening, you can't very well identify a specific instance of it strictly using SN on your crappy smartphone app. Sure, you can suspect that certain green dots right on the border between red and green pixels are probably playing it loose -- but if you think that merits enough certainty to publicly shame them on social media, perhaps you need a refresher on the quantitative limitations of the data you're looking at (which is concerning, since several "offenders" I've seen work in the field). This is doubly true if you're a high-profile voice in the weather community and have the capacity to activate the mindless herds, who enjoy nothing more than an excuse to pile on the latest faux outrage.

 

[Drew Terril]

I wasn't there Sunday. I was watching via radar. I saw via SN Icons where Ben and Adam (two who I highly respect) were. Knowing the discrepancies in data, I wasn't worried about either one of them. They're both experienced and know what they're doing. If they want to get danger close, that's not for me to worry about.

Had someone done a screenshot on Ellsworth, KS on Friday, they probably could have construed me as being in a bad spot. We sat in the inflow area longer than we maybe should have, and a new hook was forming to the southwest. We started to cut back towards the interstate until I realized we wouldn't beat it there. So I backed off a bit to let everything pass. But, considering my cell signal at the time, my icon probably didn't update to indicate my backing off. I was perfectly safe in the core, and I knew we were in no real danger.

I don't try to get close like some do, just like I don't jump out of a perfectly good aircraft. But there are those who do, and I don't judge them for that.

On the flip side, I've been known to drive a 68 ton main battle tank at interstate speeds and volunteered to serve in the military, knowing I would likely get shot at or blown up. There are plenty who would (and have) say that I'm stupid for that. For every person that thanks me for my service (regardless of if it's lip service or not), there are just as many who think I was an idiot for serving in a time of war.

All I'm saying is don't try to take the speck out of your brother's eye when there's a log in your own. I knew perfectly well what I was getting into when I enlisted a year after we went into Iraq and I did it anyway. And to be fair, I have my share of health issues from my time that I served. But I loved serving in the military, and, if the shit hit the fan and I was called back, would go back in a heartbeat even knowing it would exacerbate my current service connected injuries and health issues.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and I would imagine that many who criticize the guys from Sunday have areas of their own where they can be criticized as well, whether it has to do with chasing or not.

 

[Donnie Beasley]

People are going to do what they want, end of story. As long as they aren't putting others at risk, let them decide. I'm not Big Brother and it's not my job to protect people from themselves.

 

[rdale]

I predict that this year we'll see far more posts predicting chasers will die this year - than the number of chasers who will die.

 

[Robert Forry]

Chasing has become a game that people play to try to "one up" the next person. Being the next big person to be interviewed by GMA or being the next youtube star is what a LOT of chasers strive for these days. It's just become pathetic. That's just the way it has become.

This is the truth @Jason Boggs. I have no issue with the guys and gals who have a real passion for this (in some cases - obsession). Passion for anything in life, is an awesome thing. I mention this in my "Who's Who." My fear is getting run over, or my vehicle trashed out there because of one of these noobs trying to "get their money shot."

I have absolutley no issue with anyone chasing after dark - to each is his own. Hell, I do it, and I've got no problem with anyone who's concerned that me, and others, that are out there doing the same. That's appreciated.

 

[ngjere]

Perhaps rdale. Sorry if some people took my comments out of context. My point was simply this: The percentage of people who believe they are "chasers" simply because they have a smartphone app at the ready increases exponentially each year it seems. It becomes a "cheap thrill" for many who believe (because of slick editing) they can just drop into the core of any storm and pop out the other side, none the worse for wear. Are any of us in the position of casting judgement on these individuals? Nope, cause we were all in that situation ourselves at one time or another whether we wanted to be or not.

And we learned from the experience.

But there are plenty out there who "Don't know what they don't know." They're neither willing to "pay their dues" nor educate themselves like many of us who participate here on the forums. And when we're all sharing a storm is not the time to find out the person driving in the lane next to you hasn't a clue and is simply following your lead hoping you do. I'm willing to accept the consequences of my own actions but not when those actions are caused by the ignorance of others.

I have great respect for every chaser who takes the time to participate in the discussion and is willing to share and learn from it.

As to chasing "styles"? we all have our own personal tolerances for risk and I'm sure they change continuously based on the environment, circumstances, and knowledge level. And as I said, no one really has the right to judge one from the other.

What I don't think has been addressed is whether the "aggressive" chasers in our lot are willing to identify themselves as such so as if something were to occur, it would be made clear to emergency responders and fellow chasers to triage other victims first prior to attending to them.

 

[Todd Rector]

Forgetting completely about the "let natural selection do its work" component, my long-term fear is that even small numbers of highway deaths due to a defined cause are subject to intense scrutiny and subsequent attempts at regulation. It will be interesting to see where we are ten years from now.

 

[Chip Redmond]

Much of what has been discussed isn't anything new, nor just something that has started in the last few years. Chasing is dangerous, period. Whether you are punching the core of a supercell, playing in the bears cage, or twenty miles away from the supercell - you can be killed. Something that I think people are forgetting is that when you chose to chase, you are putting yourself at risk no matter your placement. When you consider technology and the ability to scrutinize from a long distance without ever being there, folks don't think about these associated dangers - most not even with the storm itself. Let them rant about it and post all the images they want, but long story short, the public and others have heard it a gazillion times. I can't imagine another episode of it will change their opinion on chasing...AKA, noone cares.

I think Sunday is a perfect example. We bailed on the last supercell (after a very frustrating day) as it became stationary. We decided we didn't want to chance the baseballs and to go back west and then north to Wichita Falls. However, we ended up getting cored by another storm that developed near Stephenville. It was downright nasty. Visibility was zero and we were forced off the road and waited it out in a parking lot (you can see it HERE). I am more than willing to bet, with the exception of the hail size, that this was likely worse than what many of the chasers experience in the hook of the stalled supercell. Noone notices these things though because all eyes were focused eastward.

Storm chasing, you take a risk. That risk is influenced by skill, ability, and just flat out luck. All are valid whether you are in the path of a tornado or not.

Chip

 

[Shane Adams]

I don't want to see anyone lose their life chasing

I don't either. But honestly, I've lost the ability to care when it happens again.

 

[Shane Adams]

I disagree that chasing is "dangerous" in general. It's actually quite safe, if done a certain way. I'm fine with letting all the maverick guys run rampant in cores and RFDs and circulations and all of that....but don't broadbrush the activity of chasing convection as "dangerous" because some of you choose to make it so. Some people are in it for the pure visual aspects. Granted, there are built-in dnagers to chasing, but they are road-related, which is a hazard with or without storms. Other than a stray lightning bolt, there's really nothing dangerous about chasing that the individual doesn't choose to make dangerous.

So when I see people write/say "chasing is dangerous" I'm always going to correct them. No it's not. It's dangerous for some people. I'm a happy person. I enjoy existing. I want to prolong that existence as much as possible. I don't need adrenaline to feel alive. I don't need to nearly die to appreciate the fact I'm not dead. The stresses, pressures, and anxiety of dangerous chasing are never even on my mindas far as "this is just anothger part of my chase day." I can't fathom how some of you go into any chase with the mindset that "I could die today, but oh well" just for a rush. But that's the adrenaline junkie, which I am not. No matter, the point is, chasing is not "just dangerous" in general.