Forecasting tornados an hour in advance?!?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ryan Moats
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This is certainly what VORTEX 2 is trying to do. It will probably take several years for them to analyze the data and draw conclusions, but hopefully it will be enough to increase warning times and better our understanding of why tornados form.

It's really hard to imagine a one hour lead time, but it could be possible!

Bryan
 
It's really hard to imagine a one hour lead time, but it could be possible!
One hour lead times on warnings are possible now. Just set the duration of the warning past one hour, and then hope there is a tornado to verify that warning.

"Increasing lead time" is not what this research is really about, even though it is oft-quoted by many prominent meteorologists. The research is about increasing the accuracy and certainty of warnings for longer forecast periods. In the future, research hopes that one hour (and two hour, and so on) warnings of tornadoes are more accurate and more certain than they are today.
 
Increasing lead times might have the unintended consequence of causing more deaths. Imagine an hour warning that your house is going to be hit by a tornado. It will be human nature to back the vehicles up to the house and start loading up belongings. The extra lead time will not cause people to take shelter but rather be delayed from getting to shelter trying to save their stuff.
 
One important oft-overlooked aspect of increasing lead times is the need to start including accurate time of arrival/departure envelopes for all points within the path of the hazard. This would start to alleviate the concerns that a lead time could be "too long" creating a situation where folks don't want to wait so long for the hazard's arrival.

This is an excellent social science topic, btw!
 
If it was necessary to chose between the two, I would leave the existing "lead time" (13 minutes if I have the latest figures) alone and work on accuracy. Fewer false alarms would be great and would add more to the warning system than leaving accuracy alone and taking the lead time to, say, 15 minutes.
 
Disclaimer: I think Vortex2 is a worthwhile scientific endeavor and support it fully.

While comparisons of storm-scale processes will be useful in understanding tornadogenesis, the big problem that I see with applying these findings to real-time warning systems is data granularity and range.

Rawisonde balloons go up twice a day from 92 stations in the US. We're missing a large portion of upper air dynamics because of this and it's an educated guess as to what we're missing. Even with dense mesonets like OK's and enhancements to NEXRAD, we still don't have a good view of everything near the surface.

So knowing how temps in the downdraft affect tornadogenesis will be useful, but may not be applicable in real-time situations with our current infrastructure. As pointed out in another thread, we still have counties that can't afford to get sirens - so what good would accuracy or lead-time do for them?
 
So knowing how temps in the downdraft affect tornadogenesis will be useful, but may not be applicable in real-time situations with our current infrastructure.

True - but it also shows us where to focus our future infrastructure. Recall that in the 80's it was pretty much a given that "rotating thunderstorm = tornado." Research began to knock that theory down many notches.

As pointed out in another thread, we still have counties that can't afford to get sirens - so what good would accuracy or lead-time do for them?

Plenty of good, since very few people use sirens as their sole source of info.
 
True - but it also shows us where to focus our future infrastructure. Recall that in the 80's it was pretty much a given that "rotating thunderstorm = tornado." Research began to knock that theory down many notches.

Good point - I hadn't necessarily thought of that. My comment about the sirens was more of a gripe about our infrastructure in general and probably didn't belong in this thread, but I appreciate you replying to it nonetheless. There is room for improvement, but the current system still seems to do quite a good job.
 
As good as increased lead times may sound, I am very afraid that this may well increase the appathy of the general public. If Joe, or Jane public know (or have an inkling) that they have up to an hour of time, who knows how long it will take then to get to shelter. It might seem to lessen the urgency of the situation, as opposed to a "take shelter now!" message. Just my opinion though....for what it's worth.
Go back to my post, please.
 

Great thread and questions here. While there's a lot of talk — and rightfully so — about the merits of probabilistic tornado forecasting and its role in our warning system — I think the "extra lead time" question may be even more interesting.

If/when we're able to extend tornado warning lead time out to an hour or so (as suggested by Stensrud et al. 2009), we'd be pushing beyond our traditional concept of "short fuse" warnings. Given an average of 13 minutes' lead time for tornado warnings, that doesn't leave much time to do much more than what we know people do: hear the warning, confirm the threat, decide if/how to take shelter, and act. Further, the smaller number limits your options. Unless you suffer from limited mobility, are at some large gathering place, or are out in the middle of nowhere for some reason, that limit on your options may not be such a bad thing.

As Greg says, stretching that 13 minutes out to 60 poses some really interesting social science questions. Will people use that extra 47 minutes to further evaluate their threat? Will they decide upon hearing the warning that they want to take shelter when the time comes but then forget or get sidetracked? Perhaps most concerning, will they opt to move to "best shelter" (e.g. from their mobile home to grandma's house a few miles away) only to get caught in the storm?

The problem is that we just don't have the answers to these questions. We can't even look to other similar life-or-death situations on this kind of time horizon to make comparisons because there aren't many. The closest I can think of would be tsunami warnings, but those are somewhat new, and even they contain a certain urgency that goes with "get as high as you can" combined with a potentially much larger number of people affected and trying to get to the same places. Going beyond that, we get into longer lead-time events (e.g. winter storms, hurricanes) where our track record for getting people to take protective action and/or evacuate is not what we would want it to be.

Greg's point about using the new science to specify event onset and conclusion envelopes for various points is interesting, but I don't know how useful that will be for most people. TV stations would probably still break in as soon as the warning is issued and track the storm just as they do now, and the onset/conclusion times wouldn't be dramatically different than what is already done with path casts in the NWS warnings or from radar software. The biggest benefit for those envelope calculations would be for location-aware mobile devices and for educated users or gatekeeper-types who know how long they need and a confidence interval at which they would act.

Great discussion!
 
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Nate: Great post.

Allow me to convey one anecdotal data point from the Wichita-Andover Tornado of 1991:

Two latchkey kids in Andover heard my warning and went to the basement. A few minutes later the doorbell rang. They went up to answer and it was (really!) the pizza guy. They assumed if the pizza guy was delivering, there was nothing to worry about. But, while the front door was open their dog got out. They chased the dog into the yard and around the house and -- then -- saw the tornado approaching. They recovered the dog, went back into the basement, and their home was destroyed by the tornado (no word on what happened to the pizza).

Assume for a minute the standard deviation of a 13 minute lead time is 10 to 18 minutes, which seems reasonable. You can do a lot to save your life in ten minutes. If we take the SD of lead time to, say, 30-45 minutes, will people get in their car to make it home (i.e., the parents of the latchkey kids cited above) and put themselves in danger because of a traffic jam? We don't know.

While this is one single example, it brings up the possibility that there is a potential for too much lead time. I am truly agnostic about this, if the social scientists say we could, on balance, save more lives with longer lead times, then I'm all for it.

But, I am certain that better accuracy (= improved CSIs) would enhance the warning system. That is why I am a bit perplexed when I perceive that there is more emphasis on improving lead time rather than accuracy.
 
But, I am certain that better accuracy (= improved CSIs) would enhance the warning system. That is why I am a bit perplexed when I perceive that there is more emphasis on improving lead time rather than accuracy.

I agree. The problem in tornado detection is very simple. I will let figure below do all the talking. VORTEX-2 efforts are great in helping with the understanding of tornadogenesis better, but they won't improve NWS tornado warning statistics. Better remote sensing will. I hope this becomes an emphasis from VORTEX-2 findings. A denser remote sensing network (weather surveillance doppler radar, t/rh/wind/p observations, etc.) will most definitely improve statistics, especially FAR, in my humble opinion.

source: http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~jzhang/radcov/US_lamb.radcov_1kmagl.jpg

That is a LOT of black area...

US_lamb.radcov_1kmagl.jpg
 
This will be interesting to see what the future technology and knowledge will allow. I think it will be pretty diffucult to say with any certainty beyond about fifteen minutes when and where a tornado might be happening. I am not a trained meteorologist and I am nowhere close to 95% of the people on this board when it comes to knowledge about the storms. I am only basing this on how unpredictable the weather really can be sometimes. From what I have been reading in the various threads here that there are so many variables that have an effect on what happens in a storm to be able to produce a tornado, it is impressive that we have the warning times that we do now. For example, on May 25 2010, the storms were expected to stay out in far western Kansas and probably not make it into Ellis county. Yet to many peoples surprise (at least around here where I live) some pretty intense storms came thru. My hat is off to the folks that have the knowledge and ability to get as many predictions right as you all do. But I think as good as the forecasts are and may become, nature is always gonna throw a curve that will have everyone scratching their heads in amazement.
 
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