County Officials Critical of Storm Chasers

[Jake Orosi]

No offense, but the Catholic church can't get it's members to follow certain standards of behavior; what makes you think a storm chasing organization will make all members obey traffic laws? isn't that the issue at hand in this thread? Chasers obeying traffic laws?

The organization wouldn't compel anyone to do anything; everyone would have to make that decision for themselves, and joining the association is essentially a statement that they agree with its principles.

I would venture to say most Catholics didn't "join" the church; they were simply born with Catholic parents and just figured that's what they were, whether they liked it (or even cared) or not.

 

[Sean Ramsey]

No offense, but the Catholic church can't get it's members to follow certain standards of behavior; what makes you think a storm chasing organization will make all members obey traffic laws? isn't that the issue at hand in this thread? Chasers obeying traffic laws?

The title "County Officials Critical of Storm Chasers", would they be as critical of storm chasers if a specific group were working with them and coordinating with them, and promoting awareness? They may be more critical of Joe Q. Public out clogging the road. At the very least, people who are invested in something tend to care more. Chasers may not be blasted so quickly if it is understood they are a part of something that was aware and contributing to the greater good, even if a person's sole intent was just video or photography.

To me this thread isn't about obeying traffic laws, its about perception (as conveyed in the article). Everyone has the right to chase storms. It's not right for everyone to take the blame.

I'm not saying an organization is needed or would ever be effective, but knowing there was something promoting the legitmacy of such a thing that does have usefulness in more ways than pure enjoyment while protecting it from those who don't respect it can't hurt.

 

[Jake Orosi]

The title "County Officials Critical of Storm Chasers", would they be as critical of storm chasers if a specific group were working with them and coordinating with them, and promoting awareness? They may be more critical of Joe Q. Public out clogging the road.

That's what I'm thinking. They don't think of storm chasers as a coherent and defined group, any more than they think accident rubberneckers are coordinated. It's just a bunch of individuals all out driving around in the rain looking for pictures to them.

 

[Eric Matthews]

I am a storm chaser as well as a firefighter and worked several years for a County Emergency Management Office here in Kansas. I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly from each perspective. On one hand I understand the frustration from Director Smith, but feel he may have been too critical.

I see drivers completely clueless to their surroundings on a daily basis, both while chasing storms and while responding to 911 calls. It is well known in the fire service that many drivers are idiots and rather than slow down and move to the right, you have to expect them to slam on their brakes and swerve to the left. Just as in everyday traffic, there are some of these same idiots in the storm chasing community.

Storm chasers ARE needed and DO provide services that storm spotters cannot. Spotters are a critical part of the early warning system, but they are not always out, are not always in the right position, and cannot see the storm from all sides. Just 2 weeks ago while chasing near Burlingame, KS, the NWS called us for a report on what we saw. There was a strong rotating wall cloud almost directly over the high school and they were trying to determine whether a warning was needed or not. There were no spotters out... they relied on the storm chasers to keep that community safe. I'm proud we were there and glad to have helped.

For the ignorant or arrogant people who say chasers are of no value and they are not needed, I can site their lack of experience with tornado strikes to explain their foolish comments. In my 19 years of storm chasing and 23 years as a full-time firefighter, I have seen many examples when the chasers provided what the emergency community could not. If you feel your County or Local government can handle everything that happens when a tornado strikes, once again I site your lack of experience.

I have spent over an hour on scene of a tornado strike before the local responders could arrive. Sometimes they are overwhelmed by the demand for service, and sometimes the damage makes it impossible to reach the impacted communities. Many of the chasers are firefighters, paramedics, EMT's, etc who spend time after the strike digging out residents, providing EMS care, establishing a makeshift command structure, helping to coordinate chasers efforts to clear the roads so Fire & EMS can access the area. It is the greatness in human nature that rises to the top when people are in need. Most all of the chasers are caring people who want to do the right thing for the right reason and jump in to help immediately.

Yes, there are idiots out there who make our jobs more difficult as emergency responders, but there are also many GREAT men and women who serve our communities by providing early warnings as well as through helping care for the residents until we can get to them.

Don't prosecute the innocent just to ensure you catch the guilty!

 

[Adam Simone]

I am a storm chaser as well as a firefighter and worked several years for a County Emergency Management Office here in Kansas. I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly from each perspective. On one hand I understand the frustration from Director Smith, but feel he may have been too critical.

I see drivers completely clueless to their surroundings on a daily basis, both while chasing storms and while responding to 911 calls. It is well known in the fire service that many drivers are idiots and rather than slow down and move to the right, you have to expect them to slam on their brakes and swerve to the left. Just as in everyday traffic, there are some of these same idiots in the storm chasing community.

Storm chasers ARE needed and DO provide services that storm spotters cannot. Spotters are a critical part of the early warning system, but they are not always out, are not always in the right position, and cannot see the storm from all sides. Just 2 weeks ago while chasing near Burlingame, KS, the NWS called us for a report on what we saw. There was a strong rotating wall cloud almost directly over the high school and they were trying to determine whether a warning was needed or not. There were no spotters out... they relied on the storm chasers to keep that community safe. I'm proud we were there and glad to have helped.

For the ignorant or arrogant people who say chasers are of no value and they are not needed, I can site their lack of experience with tornado strikes to explain their foolish comments. In my 19 years of storm chasing and 23 years as a full-time firefighter, I have seen many examples when the chasers provided what the emergency community could not. If you feel your County or Local government can handle everything that happens when a tornado strikes, once again I site your lack of experience.

I have spent over an hour on scene of a tornado strike before the local responders could arrive. Sometimes they are overwhelmed by the demand for service, and sometimes the damage makes it impossible to reach the impacted communities. Many of the chasers are firefighters, paramedics, EMT's, etc who spend time after the strike digging out residents, providing EMS care, establishing a makeshift command structure, helping to coordinate chasers efforts to clear the roads so Fire & EMS can access the area. It is the greatness in human nature that rises to the top when people are in need. Most all of the chasers are caring people who want to do the right thing for the right reason and jump in to help immediately.

Yes, there are idiots out there who make our jobs more difficult as emergency responders, but there are also many GREAT men and women who serve our communities by providing early warnings as well as through helping care for the residents until we can get to them.

Don't prosecute the innocent just to ensure you catch the guilty!

As a LEO I agree with everything you said. There are idiot driver's out there all of the time and it still amazes me everyday how many people don't know what to do when an emergency vehicle comes up from behind. I also think chasers are important and no matter what you do there's no way to control how some people drive. Like others have said there's no way to separate "real" storm chasers from locals and "real" storm chasers have no more right to the road then the locals do. Everyone is out there for the same reasons.

Luckily this is just a problem that comes up once a year or once every couple years and isn't an everyday thing. There's really no way around it and no way for LEO to enforce it. I don't know about you but if I have a tornado coming into my area I have better things to do then stop some idiot for speeding or cutting someone off. Now if he almost causes an accident or I know I have time before severe weather will hit then we may have a quick chat.

 

[Brian Douglas]

It is, frankly, none of your business whether he/she is a professional chaser and how dare you ask for "proof." This is America!

Your sole concern is whether a person is breaking the law. If so, they should be ticketed or arrested as any other person would be and as the facts of the situation dictate.

Rest is none of your business.

A little touchy there aren't we? My point is, throughout this forum I read about how "professional" chasers are the good guys, and the "amateurs" are causing all the problems, how do you or anyone else know this? Just because you say you are professional doesn't make it so, so who has determined the professionals are doing things right? If I have been elected to oversee the county, then in my county it is my business if you are clogging up the roads. Before everyone blows off about what can and can't be done on public roads, and whether or not one road or several roads can be closed or have access screened during storms, maybe you ought to research the law a little bit. Your attitude is exactly the problem. My guess is, the only reason chasing isn't already regulated is it happens so infrequently in many counties.

I sat in on the local briefing from NWS Friday and listened to what they thought would happen Saturday. Reading through the forecasts on this forum around noon Saturday I decided to break what up until now had been a pretty silent membership on my part and ask a question, a one liner, something along the lines of if anyone had an opinion when the storms would hit the Flinthills. NWS had said the day before they would fire between 5 and 6 pm maybe 50-100 miles west of my location, things seemed to be changing and my reason for asking the question was because I wanted a second or third opinion, because I respect quite a few of the people on here and their knowledge, several hours later when I checked to see if I had an answer my question had been pulled, because it violated rules. We had planned as best we could for several days and I asked the question innocently enough I thought, with public safety in mind. Pulling it down kind of casts some doubt in my mind about how much of this is about public safety, and how much is about adrenaline.

At any rate, I certainly do apologize for voicing an opinion here, maybe the state legislature is a more appropriate place to do it. It's too bad things always get to the point we have to get another law passed, when there are already too many to enforce. Getting along with local emergency people ought to be one of the primary goals of the truly "professional" chasers.

 

[Brian Douglas]

Whoa there, Captain Liberty. He was joining a discussion in which alleged distinctions between "real" chasers and not-"real" chasers were already brought up by others. I'm pretty sure he was speaking hypothetically, not proposing pulling over chasers and demanding ID.

And he brought up a good point - everyone is saying that the people running the red lights and backing up traffic in mile-long caravans aren't "the real chasers"; but how can anyone possibly know that? How does one tell? It seems to me the only thing that separates the "legit" from the "yahoo", technique-wise, is what they do before the chase - how they decide where exactly they'll start chasing. Because after that point, everyone's exactly the same - following the radar echoes. And they all naturally will end up in the same places because they're all following the same storms.

Not to mention that all those "yahoos" think they're legit chasers. Any attempt to try and standardize will likely be met with resistance from those folks. Heck, even attempts to unilaterally condemn bad driving practices meet with resistance - there's already at least one "legit" chaser here who says an adrenaline rush justifies breaking traffic laws and he doesn't care what anyone else thinks about it.

Thanks for getting my point. Looks to me like short of certification, perhaps this forum could set up a section for county Sheriffs etc where some of the "better end" chasers could get a chance to interact with some of the county people around the country. Then when you show up in some far out of the way place there at least might be a little name recognition and the locals will have a better idea of what to expect. By and large I don't have a problem with chasers, but I do know there are problems, not that there aren't with every other aspect of life, but on this particular forum we are dealing with storm chasing, not alfalfa weevils, potholes in gravel roads, or rust in the wheat.

 

[Andy Jackson]

Thanks for getting my point. Looks to me like short of certification, perhaps this forum could set up a section for county Sheriffs etc where some of the "better end" chasers could get a chance to interact with some of the county people around the country. Then when you show up in some far out of the way place there at least might be a little name recognition and the locals will have a better idea of what to expect. By and large I don't have a problem with chasers, but I do know there are problems, not that there aren't with every other aspect of life, but on this particular forum we are dealing with storm chasing, not alfalfa weevils, potholes in gravel roads, or rust in the wheat.

It's fair to allow some county people to air some of their concerns. I'd rather have someone let off some steam on here then have someone with a grudge hassle me out there. I also believe there are plenty who would gladly answer questions about storm day stuff especially with the NWS being busy as it is.

 

[Skip Talbot]

Pulling it down kind of casts some doubt in my mind about how much of this is about public safety, and how much is about adrenaline.

I think you've misunderstood what this forum is about, it's purpose, and intentions. This is largely a community of hobbyist weather enthusiasts. While many participate in severe weather reporting, the primary goal of most storm chasers is to document severe weather. Public safety is a secondary motive for most if it is a motive at all. Storm chasing is largely a recreational hobby, not an official service. One of the reasons the Target Area is closed to the public is because the forecasts provided by the members here are not intended to be used to protect life and property. Anyone acting in an official capacity needs to use an official information source such as the National Weather Service. Forecasts posted here are from amateurs collaborating in regards to a hobby. Another reason the Target Area area is closed to the public is because it is intended as a discussion forum between storm chasers, not a place for the public or officials to request information. If this is disagreeable, I'm afraid you may have the wrong forum. Your opinions and insights as an official outside of chasing are valuable in topics such as as this one, but please respect the motives and rules for how this forum operates.

 

[Todd Renshaw]

That's the trouble with public roads ... you know; the public. We tend to get in the way when the roads are clogged.

This is getting the feeling of "if you're not a county official, you're little people". Good luck passing that law and making it stick. Any certification system you can think of is unworkable. I have just as much right to be out there as anyone else. (And yes, I have an obligation to obey the laws.)

 

[Rob H]

Pulling it down kind of casts some doubt in my mind about how much of this is about public safety, and how much is about adrenaline.

If I cared about adrenaline, I'd find a different hobby where I didn't have to drive 12 hours from Minnesota to Colorado to sit under a hot, blue, cloudless sky for 8 hours and then go sleep in a dingy motel afterwards.

It's not about adrenaline for most here - it's about learning how the atmosphere works, spending days of preparation, executing successfully, and seeing something really powerful, uncommon, and amazing. Sometimes that passion takes you into scenarios where you can make a difference by calling 911, relaying a report of something life-threatening, helping someone out of a demolished house, or performing first aid on someone injured. Sometimes it takes you to something that shakes you to the core and makes you quit the hobby for days, months, or even forever.

At that point it isn't part of the hobby or a responsibility as a chaser - it's called being responsible as a member of society. Everyone should do the same, we just happen to be in the right place continually, and have more knowledge about the situation than most.

 

[Seth Price]

Organization

The problem with any organization idea is you will never get many of the veteran chasers to join. Most of the chasers I know tend to view themselves and act as free spirits and, as such, are not going to be terribly receptive to any sort of organization or standardization.

That is because an organization has nothing to offer those who chase because they like to chase. When I join American Foundry Society, the National Rifle Association, the Society for Industrial Archeology, the American Radio Relay League, etc., I get something out of it- a journal, magazine, discounts, etc. Joining to get a special ID card that makes me more "official" than someone else is no reward. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

 

[Eric Matthews]

It is important we police ourselves. In my opinion, we have WAY too many laws that are made with the best of intentions, but do not bring the intended outcome and place LEO's in difficult situations. You cannot legislate human behavior.

As Rob Hurkes stated above, it's part of "being responsible as a member of society". That responsibility exists on the roads just as it does when we find people in need.

BRAVO Rob on nailing this one!

 

[Mike Smith]

A little touchy there aren't we? My point is, throughout this forum I read about how "professional" chasers are the good guys, and the "amateurs" are causing all the problems, how do you or anyone else know this? ...

Your attitude is exactly the problem.

At any rate, I certainly do apologize for voicing an opinion here, maybe the state legislature is a more appropriate place to do it. It's too bad things always get to the point we have to get another law passed, when there are already too many to enforce. Getting along with local emergency people ought to be one of the primary goals of the truly "professional" chasers.

Sadly, this is exactly the type of response I was expecting. I respectfully suggest you take a look at this paper: www.emich.edu/cerns/downloads/papers/PoliceStaff/Unsorted/OATH & ETHICS.pdf

That's the trouble with public roads ... you know; the public.
This is getting the feeling of "if you're not a county official, you're little people". Good luck passing that law and making it stick. Any certification system you can think of is unworkable. I have just as much right to be out there as anyone else. (And yes, I have an obligation to obey the laws.)

Amen.

Law enforcement has all of the authority it needs to stop running red lights, speeding, etc. It has all the authority it needs to stop trespassing. It has all the authority it needs to close off a damaged area.

While I agree the gawkers tend to cause more of the problems, in the eyes of the law it doesn't matter a whit whether someone who runs a red light is a professional or gawker. That is -- or should be -- your sole concern. The laws are supposed to be enforced equally.​

You certainly have the right to approach the legislature with your concerns to see if they wish to regulate storm chasing which is the proper way to handle any concerns you might have.

And, for the record, I've never been arrested, never threatened with arrest, and never had any type of problem with law enforcement. I don't have an attitude problem toward law enforcement. In fact, I think they have a tough job, especially in a stressful situation like a tornado outbreak.

That is why some outreach, as I suggested this morning (see: http://meteorologicalmusings.blogspot.com/2012/04/answering-reader-questions-about-storm.html ), would be a lot more effective than threats.

 

[Brian Douglas]

That's the trouble with public roads ... you know; the public. We tend to get in the way when the roads are clogged.

This is getting the feeling of "if you're not a county official, you're little people". Good luck passing that law and making it stick. Any certification system you can think of is unworkable. I have just as much right to be out there as anyone else. (And yes, I have an obligation to obey the laws.)

Nope, that is not my intention at all. I do have a perspective on this that is apparently unique on this forum and thought I would share it. If you read all of the 10 or 12 posts I have made(total) you will find I have a decent amount of respect for chasers. At the same time, I know exactly why the Dickinson county folks felt the way they did. I can't add much to this forum in the way of forecasting but I do think I probably have a much better idea of the way government operates than most others who post here.

As far as self absorption goes, it appears from the outside looking in the chaser community suffers from quite a bit of that themselves. The idea somehow that you couldn't ever be subject to regulation is a dream of sorts. But, if you want to believe I am the bad guy because I am posting what I have, be my guest, it doesn't make any difference to me. Just don't live under the illusion that two guys in Dickinson county Kansas are the only people who have had issues with chasers, and don't live under the illusion that situations like Saturday couldn't lead to some sort of legislation. Public safety is issue number one for people like me, and the general public and the law will come down on the side of that.