Chaser Safety and Responsibility suggestions

[Shane Adams]

With all due respect to Doswell, I've never been the type who bows to anyone. I don't need an ehtics lecture (especially one I have to pay to hear) to know the difference between right and wrong. Also, and I feel particularly strong about this point, I don't feel I owe anyone who chased before me a "thank you" for steering me into the activity. I was fascinated with tornadoes long before I knew there were chasers. That interest lead to my chasing. I wasn't aware there were other chasers when I started besides TV crews and of course Warren Faidley (because he was all over TWC). When I found out I wasn't the only "regular guy" who just chased because he wanted to see tornadoes, I was floored. The first time I stumbled upon the old Storm Chaser Homepage, I couldn't believe it. Not only was I not the only one, I was but one of several.

I respect (and in some cases, admire) the veterans for their accomplishments, but I in no way owe them anything I don't owe every chaser out there - mutual respect of their safety as well as my own. That is it. Chasing isn't an innovation, it's a simple activity. Someone always has to be first, and then others follow. Not because they're mimmicking the firsts, but because they simply come along at a later time. I don't look at a Nick Grillo or a Chris Sanner and think "they owe me because I've paved the way for them." Because I haven't.

Off-topic, but at least it's a new subject :wink:

 

[Jay McCoy]

Ryan what I think was meant by obstacles was to pretty well ostrasize them. Pass around emails about bad behavior. mkae them feel unwelcome on sites like ST, and mostly ignore them in the field so they feel continued stupidity means isloation from the chase community.

Not sure this approach would work for the extreme yahoo's and especially the yokals who get out with their family but chasers on here who have done stupid things before, not only chasing but doing things like "borrowing" pics and claiming they were theirs etc.., have had this treatment and it seemed to work.

I agree with Amos about legislation is inevitable. maybe not statewide but I can see some counties passing some laws. problem is it wont be one of us that causes it but some local yahoo trying to follow us or pretending they are in "Twister".

Shane I agree it is up to us to and all we have to do is have a bit of control driving. I dont think they are worried if we stop on the side of some back country or dirt road. it is the driving that is the concern. As for "they cant ban cameras, laptops, etc.. Why not?? they banned radar detectors and scanners in many states. If you have a laptop in view of the driver or a camcorder not secured in a bag I can see them writing you up if a law is passed. Most people wont fight a law like that. except for us how many people ride around with a laptop mouted to their dash?? I just hope this never freakin happens or we are all screwed..lol

I dont really see any way to "regulate" chasers or their behaviors except pure peer pressure. It is up to each of us to decide how we chase and how we will be percieved by our peers. Some could care less and will do what they want but most of us want to be respected by our peers. I enjoy stopping on the side and chatting with other chasers before, during and after a chase but if I am acting like an idiot most people wont want to be around me. The majority of chasers I know or have seen are responsible and pretty safe. We have all done stupid things in the heat of the moment. its the people who continually do crazy or dangerous things because they feel its the only way to get close etc.. are the ones to worry about. Hell even Shane, being the free spirit he is is a pretty damn safe chaser and I would have no problem being around him. He knows the limits of safety but still has fun....lol.

I think it comes from a lack of wx knowledgde and chase experience that leads people to do stupid things. The more experienced you become the less crazy you have to act to keep up with and observe a storm.I dont see many 10-15-20 yr vets doing the dumb things we did as noobs. I will say knowledge makes up for experience many times. Hate to use you Nick but your a good example. Nick only has a few years of chasing under him but has a good knowledge of wx and had some others with experience to ride with. I consider Nick a safe smart chaser. he had an advantage many of us didnt back in the day and that was other chasers and a place like ST to learn. he used it well. I have alot of respect for newer people who come in and actually try and learn about wx and not just go chase cause its "cool" or like twister.

 

[David Drummond]

Someone taking some of those suggestions to extreme would hurt this hobby far more than any of the so called "yahoos" do. Should someone try to detain or impede someone else's progress on some way is downright illegal in a few different ways. God forbid some altercation between two "chaser" people on the side of the road turn violent, that is going to turn into a bad, bad thing for chasing. And the potential is there to do so given the high gamut emotions most of us are running on any given chase day.

All that said, aside from obeying traffic laws (something every single driver will break from time to time chasing or not, and if they say they don't, they are lying, whether they mean to or not), or obeying FCC regs when on the ham, or obeying any other such thing that might be regulated by existing laws on the books...... all the rest of it is just what any one individual wants to impose on someone else.

While there have been a few bonehead moves that have been reported over the years, all of which fell under already existing laws, most of the stuff I have heard people griping about other chasers doing, and that includes myself, have been purely something the griping party just didn't like for whatever reason. I personally have witnessed some big name chasers do some pretty stupid things, some of the very same chasers that will be the first to step up and disparage others for doing stupid things. Funny thing is, if someone were to come here and call one of THEM to the carpet for their behaviour, it wouldn't be accepted by the community.

The simple matter of it is, it's a free country (or at least it is of this writing), and yes, that includes the freedom to be a dumbass as long as your not breaking the existing laws. That's the beauty, and perhaps will be the downfall of our country, is that it's NOT illegal to do stupid things as long as they do not break the law, regardless of how much any one of us doesn't care for it.

As for putting up barriers, or making it hard for anyone doing stupid stuff to chase or whatever.....

Personally, I don't see how anyone doing this finds the TIME on a chase day to do it. I never seem to have enough time on chase days for anything other than taking care of the chase. Occasionally, someone does something that pissed me of. I yell at them in my vehicle going by, might even yell at them out the window, give them the old southern wave, and continue on my way. 10 minutes later down the road when I am shooting that tornado I have done forgot about them.

I would suggest if someone is spending more time fretting about what other chasers, or wanna be chasers are doing than they are worring about their own chasing activities, then it's not about the storms or the weather for you any more, and I don't care who you are or how many letters are following your name.

In the end, most things (usually driving offenses) are covered by the laws on the books. The rest of it.... really none of us have any business telling anyone what they can or can't do or how they should or should not act unless we want to start financing that persons chasing activities, the we can have a say-so about how they do it.

I have learned over the years that those doing the stupidest things you usually don't see out there more than 2 or 3 years down the road. Chasing is an expensive, time consuming, life consuming activity that can be extremely frustrating and disappointing at times, usually offset by a few moments of sheer joy. Most of the fly-by-nite yahoo chasers won't stick around for the long haul, only to be replaced by a new group. Only those that are truly passionate about it will stick it out for the long haul.

Anyway, there is my (probably unpopular) opinion.

Edited for spelling.

 

[Amos Magliocco]

Don't be a moron behind the wheel. We're all gonna speed, cut corners, roll stop signs and red lights - we ALL ARE. But there's a line between "hey we're breaking the law" and "hey, we're endangering ourselves and everyone around us." People with half a brain know the difference and respect that difference. Everyone else are simply morons, and you can't cure stupidity.

I'm afraid there's some irrefutable wisdom here. Someone mentioned last night that the people who might take advantage of materials produced by an 'association' are probably NOT the ones we're worried about in the first place. Probably a sizable percentage of the people we're worried about don't even participate in online chaser communities at all. This isn't a promising outlook, but I don't think it means we should give up.

It's possible that the return of this topic on forums and email lists each March is the best way to raise awareness before each chase season. Maybe we're mitigiating the problem to some small extent merely by asking ourselves what if anything we can or should do about it.

 

[John Farley]

I, for one, DO think that there are some things that can be done to reduce dangerous behavior. For one thing, there are always new chasers starting up, and the veterans like Doswell, and to some extent the broader chase community as well, influence these newbies by the messages we send. I for one, know that when I was a new chaser, what I did was shaped by the "dos" and "don'ts" that I had heard about from places like the Storm Chaser Home Page and Dowsell's safety page. I still made stupid mistakes anyway, but I made fewer than I would have without having seen these safety guidelines. And, equally important, I always tried to learn from my mistakes. To summarize, I think that, if for no other reason than their influence on new chasers, having these safety discussions is important. It was, after all, the newer chasers to whom Doswell primarily directed his remarks at the Denver convention.

I think another thing we can and should do is call people out when we see stupid behavior. I will admit I haven't always done it myself - keeping position on the storm has sometimes been more important than stopping to chew out the guy that pulled out in front of me without looking, or the one standing on top of his SUV 2 minutes after I saw a CG blow up a transformer. But I still think that the more we say something to people we see doing something stupid, especially if it endangers others, like bad driving, the more pressure will be generated on people to be more responsible. In this vein, I think Doswell did exactly the right thing when he showed the car that passed him on a hill and nearly rear-ended the car in front of him. Would YOU want to have your picture doing that shown to the chaser convention? I'm guessing not, and the knowledge that this kind of thing could happen - because more chasers are trying to engage in some collective self-policing - might act as at least a small disincentive to such stupid and dangerous driving. Especially if you vehicle or license plate is recognizable to other chasers.

 

[David Drummond]

Ryan what I think was meant by obstacles was to pretty well ostrasize them. Pass around emails about bad behavior. mkae them feel unwelcome on sites like ST, and mostly ignore them in the field so they feel continued stupidity means isloation from the chase community.

Not sure this approach would work for the extreme yahoo's and especially the yokals who get out with their family but chasers on here who have done stupid things before, not only chasing but doing things like "borrowing" pics and claiming they were theirs etc.., have had this treatment and it seemed to work.

The problem with all of that though Jay, aside from a few (well known among us) individuals, how many of those people are even ON any of the known lists or message boards? They probably would never see it, and most likely could care less about what any of us "real" chasers think anyway. I am thinking of the one's we all hear about popping out of the woodwork, offering tours or video or something, claiming XX number of years experience, and NONE of us have ever heard of any of them? I think it was Amos that said it best, paraphrasing, "Don't these people know that all of us that chase a lot run into one another all the time on the roads and that some of us would have seen or met them at one time or another!"

I would suggest that most of those people are oblivious to our little worlds on ST and the lists and chat rooms.

 

[Jay McCoy]

Ryan what I think was meant by obstacles was to pretty well ostrasize them. Pass around emails about bad behavior. mkae them feel unwelcome on sites like ST, and mostly ignore them in the field so they feel continued stupidity means isloation from the chase community.

Not sure this approach would work for the extreme yahoo's and especially the yokals who get out with their family but chasers on here who have done stupid things before, not only chasing but doing things like "borrowing" pics and claiming they were theirs etc.., have had this treatment and it seemed to work.

The problem with all of that though Jay, aside from a few (well known among us) individuals, how many of those people are even ON any of the known lists or message boards? They probably would never see it, and most likely could care less about what any of us "real" chasers think anyway. I am thinking of the one's we all hear about popping out of the woodwork, offering tours or video or something, claiming XX number of years experience, and NONE of us have ever heard of any of them? I think it was Amos that said it best, paraphrasing, "Don't these people know that all of us that chase a lot run into one another all the time on the roads and that some of us would have seen or met them at one time or another!"

I would suggest that most of those people are oblivious to our little worlds on ST and the lists and chat rooms.

And I agree with that David. I wasnt saying thats the best option and I am not really in favor of it all that much. I was just saying that maybe thats what they meant by obstacles. At least by us sharing this information though like you said about chase companies we can expose them for what they are in our community. If word about shady tours gets out it may prevent them from being able to operate as well. If I see a company using somebody elses pics or video as claiming they are theirs I am damn sure going to call them out on it (but thats a different thread).

We cant police or regulate chasers and their behaviors. All we can do is take care of ourselves and associate with others who do the same. I will not chase or hang out with some jackass who drives 100mph just to get within 25ft of a tornado so they can scream "cool" on video. But that is MY choice.

 

[Glen Romine]

I would suggest that most of those people are oblivious to our little worlds on ST and the lists and chat rooms.

I agree completely, most of those we would like to see behave differently likely have no clue who any of us are, and probably are short-lived in their ventures in chasing but can still have significant impacts on the community as a whole. That said, it might still be possible to 'reach' some of them before they ever hit the road. I think the best thing any of us could do is to encourage communication to the general public, particularly the younger public. Get involved in your local communities in education about storm safety, including the hazards associated with chasing/storm spotting. Your not going to stop all obnoxious behavior, but it might be possible to convince a few would-be yahoos to think otherwise. I think the idea of ostracizing longterm yahoos has really failed to deter them. If anything, the 'methods' used to isolate chasers from the yahoos has also isolated them from budding chasers as well, leaving the yahoos as available mentors. I agree with others that self-policing to the point of 'physical obstacles' to yahoos is a potentially dangerous avenue.

As for my previous reference to Doswell, Ryan's interpretation is exactly how I meant to convey it. Sorry if there was confusion Greg.

Glen

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

If there are chasers out there (presumably, chasers who have *followed* Chuck into the hobby), and they are appallingly turning their noses up against the likes of Chuck Doswell and other veterans, I have news for them. Us responsible and ethical chasers will not take lightly to this, and we're not going to turn our noses and run.

What are we going to do, shoot them? Post them on the internet? Talk about them in public places? Draw cartoons demeaning them? Make up e-mail lists or special forums to keep them out? Lock them out of NWS offices? I'm sure you can do a whole lot of excluding means--which always seems to help things.

 

[Shane Adams]

I agree there's no harm in having these conversations each year before chase season, other than annoying people, and that's a daily thing around here anyway :wink:

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Ryan what I think was meant by obstacles was to pretty well ostrasize them. Pass around emails about bad behavior. mkae them feel unwelcome on sites like ST, and mostly ignore them in the field so they feel continued stupidity means isloation from the chase community.

Most chasers care more about the storms and getting to see them than they do the chase community. Or not. I'll never sacrafice wanting to get close or wanting to punch a core, or even speeding on occasion, so that others will be sure to like me. That is the problem. This whole yahoo debate means so many different things to some and all that crap is pointless to care about...regardless of where it is coming from.

 

[Jay McCoy]

Ryan what I think was meant by obstacles was to pretty well ostrasize them. Pass around emails about bad behavior. mkae them feel unwelcome on sites like ST, and mostly ignore them in the field so they feel continued stupidity means isloation from the chase community.

Most chasers care more about the storms and getting to see them than they do the chase community. Or not. I'll never sacrafice wanting to get close or wanting to punch a core, or even speeding on occasion, so that others will be sure to like me. That is the problem. This whole yahoo debate means so many different things to some and all that crap is pointless to care about...regardless of where it is coming from.

In most ways I agree Mike and actually I dont think many of us who have chased for a while will be that bad. I think the point of the discussion is actually to maybe have some effect on new people coming in that may want to be welcome by the community as a whole because they are noobs and will try and not offend anybody.

We all make our own choices out there. If I was to say I never speed to get to a storm I would be lying out of my @$$. I have also driven through a few cores in my day ( just look at my hood) but I try and be safe as I can while still observing a storm. One thing I do think about is not intruding on another chasers experience. We can all chase how we feel but if somebody stops in the road and blocks me or parks right in front of my tripod they sure as hell are going to know about it. That is just common courtesy. If they affect MY chase thats when its a problem. Like the saying goes "your rights end where mine begin". I never said you or anybody didnt have the right to core punch etc.. Just dont do anything that may affect the community later (like blasting through town and hit somebody) or that impedes my chase.

 

[Gabe Garfield]

We needs some storms.

I couldn't agree more.

I've got a fever... :lol:

Gabe

EDIT: Nick, what happened to your post? lol

 

[Greg Stumpf]

Several folks have made comments that most of the "yahoos" that we should be concerned about probably aren't even connected to the mainstream chaser community through the BBs or newsgroups, and may have never even heard of Doswell. Yes, some of those "outsiders" are a concern, but...

I've got news for everyone - some of the most egregious yahoos are in our circles. It wasn't just newbie/wannabee chasers that Chuck was directing his message toward at the Denver audience. Some were at the convention. Some are highly visible in the chaser community (such as the chaser in the black pickup truck caught in Doswell's camera lens). Some are even looked up to as being veterans to model one's behavior after. So, let's not just brush this under the carpet as a problem we can't fix since we can't "reach" the violators.

Believe, I would much rather convert a yahoo to a responsible chaser through diplomacy (such as online information, public lectures, etc), rather than resort to other means (BTW, I was not advocating harsh actions like violence, just simple things like photos on the web).

 

[David Drummond]

Aside from the legal issue of it Jay, folks like you and I that grew up in the western half of the southern plains are all too familiar of the VAST distances between two points out here, where 70mph down mostly straight roads for hours on end is excruciating. People out here in general will often take liberties with the speed limit just for that reason. Those from more populated areas to the east probably don't understand that as much, but nothing like a drive across parts of the Texas panhandle or the western half of Kansas to tempt you to get a bit liberal with the accelerator.

There is a difference though between running 80 down a straight road in the middle of nowhere and blowing through town exceeding the school zone by 20 mph. But you know what, that's not a chaser thing, that's a driver thing. I have a school zone 1 block from my house and on any given day at least a dozen cars get pulled over speeding through it. Guess what? Not one of them was a chaser. Drivers all over drive bad, I have come to accept it as part of the driving experience and take my own measures to keep myself out of danger.

Now something some people, particularly those not from the southern plains don't understand is that traffic laws, generally speaking, are not usually followed of enforced on those back country dirt roads. Really, they are only there for farm access. These roads on any given day are lucky to see 6 cars go down them, or less. Those of us that live out here know this. But I have seen some chasers chastise people for being parked in half of a dirt road, or farmers blocking part of the road, etc, etc. Folks, this is their territory. That is their life, it's like that every day. Chasers coming through are but a fleeting thing and it is WE that are in the way, not them.

Those people that get out and stick their tripods and themselves in the right of way IMO deserve whatever happens to them. Anyone that doesn't have enough of their own sense to keep themselves and their gear out of harms way aren't going to give a rat's rear about what Doswell or any of the rest of us have to say. I personally have nearly hit a number of these people of the last 3 or 4 years.

Just try to get as far off the right of way as you possibly can. Obviously, that's not always easy, but try to do the best you can. Use your signals when turning or stopping. Seems like 90% of these issues would go away with just a little common courtesy. The other 10% are hopeless anyway.