Would you mobile mesonet for science?

We all just thought the Vortex II jinx was bad............just wait till this idea blossoms! :eek:
Sounds like a great idea and I would be willing and able to assist.
 
Per Sean Waugh:


In response to the issue of outfitting chaser vehicles with Mobile Mesonet type instruments racks, the idea does have some merit. If it were possible to do, the data that was collected could provide sometimes dense, high spatial and temporal observations in real time to forecasters, which could prove to be very helpful. The data could also be used to research projects that need that type of data, assuming that the quality is good. That being said, I have a few comments.

First off, my experience with Mobile Mesonets is probably higher than most. I built all of the Mobile Mesonets for the VORTEX 2 project and helped significantly with the construction and wiring of the instrumented racks. I have done a number of research projects examining the validity of the measurements and am currently redesigning a few instruments. Ok, enough of my references to my credibility.

The main point for most people will be cost. The Mobile Mesonet racks that the National Severe Storms Lab (NSSL) uses cost approximately $10,000 (which for some people is probably more than their chase car is worth). This cost represents the instruments, the shields, the wiring, the logger, the aluminum pipe that the rack in constructed out of, everything. The racks measure Temperature, RH, Wind Speed, Wind Direction, and Pressure. In order to get a worthwhile picture of the storm, you really need to have all of those instruments on there. From those you can derive almost anything you need. So this will not be able to be done cheaply. The RM Young Wind Monitors are approx. $1000 and a viable data logger (Campbell Sci. has a few) is about the same in cost.

The second issue is standardization. One of the most important aspects of taking measurements is that each measurement be made in the exact same manner to ensure comparison. For example, all wind speed/direction measurements on ALL of the NSSL vehicles are taken at 11 ft. This would require that each vehicle had the instrument in the same position. The problem here is that each car has a unique flow field over it, making each type of car different with respect to mixing of ambient air, wind speed, wind direction, etc. Just FYI, in order to be completely out of the slip stream of a vehicle, you must go 3X the height of the car. Reflectance and re-radiance off car roofs would affect temperature data if the instruments were located too close to the roof. This would make it very difficult and time consuming to have two different vehicles have measurements that are taken in the same way. Essentially, each type of vehicle would have to be compared to a previously established MM to ensure similarity. Wear on the instruments would also be a problem. They break, they need replaced b/c they are worn out, etc. = more cost.

Driving habits would be a slight concern, though to be honest the derived wind speed and direction actually does a pretty good job at keeping up with fast accelerations and turns. The programming for this system is complex to say the least, but obviously doable and able to run on almost any system.

So I think the idea has merit, but it is going to be VERY difficult to put together. There are many more things to consider that most people don’t think about. I’m trying to limit the length of my initial post on this, but I’ll post answers to more questions/comments as I see them. Feel free to message/email me, I will have an active account in a few days.
 
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At what point can you make a trade-off between precision, cost and practicality? Could aggregate wind readings with a few MPH margin of error still be useful? If you've got 100 Davis systems around a storm, wouldn't the data - coarse and non-standardized as it may be - still be of *some* use?

For research, is it 'perfect or nothing', or can lower-grade equipment still be of some use, providing the end results take it into account?
 
All good points...but off the mark of the original premise.

The meteorological community has a gap in surface observations. One that will _NEVER_ be filled if the community insists on ultra precise $10,000 equipment in every situation.

So the basic premise/question is still out there...

Is "good enough" better than "nothing"?

I would argue yes, as did several of the VORTEX2 principles at the SWS2009 conference.

If you believe "good enough" is useful...then the question becomes what is "good enough"? History has shown that just seeing the noise can create huge shifts in the direction of science.

Personally..I'd rather have 1000 wind observations around a storm that are known to be +/- 10mph than 0 observations accurate to 0.001 mph.

I'd love to have Sean contact me offlist at [email protected], his insight in the equipment and ramifications of "good enough" decisions would be very beneficial. Assuming he agrees with the basic premise.

I intend to get feedback from the research/operations community once a "good enough" solution is ready to be proposed. And if the majority say "good enough" is really not "good enough"...then there's no point in continuing down this path and chasers can spend the $500 on a new camera lens. I'm not going to drive around maintaining an MM, using my bandwidth and fiddling with software if nobody is going to look at the data and I suspect very few would either.

I know it's going to be _VERY_ difficult for some scientists to get over the fact of not having a "perfect" measurement is actually okay.

You can learn from not perfect. You can't learn from nothing.

-Tyler
 
I'd say within 5% is going to be accurate enough to draw conclusions from, and cheap off the shelf sensors and interface boards can definitely perform within that range. A combination of spinning cups anemometers, magnetic directional vanes, and temp/dew/pressure sensors can be had in $200-$300 range and assembled with Home Depot hardware. A separate data logger is not necessary if you're interfacing with a PC, as the PC becomes your data logger. You'll also find many chasers lumped together on the same parts of a storm, and from these common data points you could run statistical averages to get more accurate results.
 
Again, per Sean Waugh

Tyler, I'll send you an email at some point in the near future and we can talk about things in more depth. I agree with the basic premise, I simply have issues with the feasibility (if that's the correct word here) of the idea.

But for everyone else's benefit, there are a few more points I'd like to make. Please keep in mind here that my following points are in the context of researchesque observations, not personal chasing or enjoyment.

Cup anemometers are cheap, and easy to use, but also incredibly inaccurate the way that most people tend to use them. I have seen a countless number of chasers with cup anemometers mounted to the roof of their car using a magnet mount. This does nothing more than give you the vehicle speed. Wind measurements that close to the roof of the vehicle are very prone to observational errors as most of the ambient wind, even sitting still, is directed over the level of that measurement.

Temperature measurements are also hard to do. The temperature measurements that NSSL makes are not infallible. They have issues as well. While the sensor itself may specify an accuracy of +/- 0.01 C, it's the time constant of the sensor that really makes a difference. With a long time constant, a temperature sensor will take a longer time to respond to a change in temperature. So if you have a slow-to-respond temperature sensor, driving in and out of boundaries will result in a very damped temperature change, masking the true temperature change. This is something that very few people realize, and that even with the "super-precise" research measurements in VORTEX 2 is still a significant problem (one which I am currently working on). My point here, is that, at least in my person opinion, off-the-shelf temperature sensor systems are very difficult to get any worthwhile data out of. The temperature sensor itself may be a good sensor, but the shielding adds a significant amount to the time constant of the system and results in large temperature errors from the true value. This is something that I would be hesitant to use for any purpose other than, "Oh hey, the temperature dropped."

And Skip, the computer as the datalogger with an interface board would be cheaper, the datalogger simply makes it easier and more precise. You'd still need to develop software to read the data in, compute what ever variables you can, then output the data to a file. Not a hard thing to do though.
 
i would also like to contribute time and money to the cause, IMO i think this is a great idea
 
Marvelous idea! Imagine a storm like the La Grange co.,WY storm or the Aurora, NE storm with the glut of chasers on each. Even with ample data collected by V2 on the WY storm, an additional 50-100 points of data (at any particular point in time) would certainly be worth something. Every chaser has a different goal and comfort level wrt positioning and distance. And since these points are not stationary, a sizeable areal coverage could be potentially realized by simply taking advantage of vehicles that would certainly be deployed on such storms, instrumented or otherwise. How did I miss this thread until this point?

Count me in, if I can afford it.
 
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