VORTEX2

[Shane Adams]

There are some amazingly selfish and, IMO, stupid attitudes towards this going on here. Hopefully it's not as prevalent as I think it is, but let me have a shot at this: you're one in probably close to one hundred chasers filming the same storm. The radar truck maybe only one of one which can accomplish the mission it's out to do. You happen to be parked in the one in maybe five spots that the radar truck can park (within a mile area or so); meanwhile, your vehicle can park almost anywhere given it's not in the roadway. And you won't move? I'm sorry, given that you have that knowledge and you don't move you're just being a dick. That's fine...I understand, I'm a bit of an ass myself...but really, get over yourself.

That is exactly the kind of ****ty attitude that gives me my "selfish" attitude out there. You wanna get out and move my car for me? You wanna pay me for my inconvenience? Of course not. **** anybody who thinks I should move because someone "more important" comes along. I'm no more selfish than the radar truck guy for asking chasers to move. Having some "life-altering" scientific agenda is no more cause for special treatment than any other reason - sorry. Quite frankly, I'm still waiting on results from the first VORTEX that are significant enough to justify asking chasers (who drove the same ****in miles and spent their own money to be there) to move.

Like I said before, it's not my responsibility to make VORTEX2 run smoothly. And just because I was a little better on a given day and got their early doesn't make me a dick when I refuse to interrupt my chase "for science"

Get over myself? Look in the mirror buddy.

 

[mikedeason]

Are you for real dude ? That is by far, the most ****** up thing I have ever read. If you do those stunts, someone could take serious action against you.

Considering we, the taxpayers, are subsidizing a good chunk of Kiel's chasing this year, I suppose he can feel confident in saying whatever he wants.

Action is another thing though. It's easy to say that kind of stuff online.

 

[Joey Ketcham]

Are you for real dude ? That is by far, the most ****** up thing I have ever read. If you do those stunts, someone could take serious action against you.

Um, considering the fact that he placed around that I am pretty sure he was only kidding.

 

[Brandon Goforth]

That is exactly the kind of ****ty attitude that gives me my "selfish" attitude out there. You wanna get out and move my car for me? You wanna pay me for my inconvenience? Of course not. **** anybody who thinks I should move because someone "more important" comes along. I'm no more selfish than the radar truck guy for asking chasers to move. Having some "life-altering" scientific agenda is no more cause for special treatment than any other reason - sorry. Quite frankly, I'm still waiting on results from the first VORTEX that are significant enough to justify asking chasers (who drove the same ****in miles and spent their own money to be there) to move.

Like I said before, it's not my responsibility to make VORTEX2 run smoothly. And just because I was a little better on a given day and got their early doesn't make me a dick when I refuse to interrupt my chase "for science"

Get over myself? Look in the mirror buddy.

I agree 100%. Quite frankly, given the times (economically speaking), I'm not so sure that VORTEX 2 is not just wasteful spending. I would really like to see the return on investment with this project. How will it change/improve the current warning system? How will it change forecasting? By how much? Is it enough to warrant spending millions of dollars on? When can we begin to see these changes implemented? These are a few simple questions for cost/benefit analysis, and while I'm sure much data will be collected, in the end, I don't see much changing. In fact, I think we'd be better off using the money spent on VORTEX 2 to place more radars across the plains...in the end, I'd bet this would be much more beneficial to society...but people tend to favor money spent on causes that claim to "save life and property"...so to cut my selfish behavior, we're starting a new research team called Severe Hail Intercept Team...with all of the damage to property each year from hail, and the fact that someone caught outdoors in large hail could even be killed...the S.H.I.T. is here to gather useful data about hail size and storm structure for research...we're just doing our duty...S.H.I.T. is all about the science.

 

[Ryan McGinnis]

How will it change/improve the current warning system? How will it change forecasting? By how much? Is it enough to warrant spending millions of dollars on? When can we begin to see these changes implemented? These are a few simple questions for cost/benefit analysis, and while I'm sure much data will be collected, in the end, I don't see much changing.

"If I don't bother to research it, then it must not exist!" I love internet discussions.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

I agree 100%. Quite frankly, given the times (economically speaking), I'm not so sure that VORTEX 2 is not just wasteful spending.

Interesting range of opinions on here. Hopefully, for those who see little need for the project, you are comfortable with a ~75% false alarm rate. Sure, some more radars may help (at the cost of millions per radar), but we may well be at a stopping point in terms of our understanding of tornadogenesis. We see many supercells in the U.S. each year, some in environments that we would characterize as "favorable" for tornadoes; yet, a very small percentage of these supercells actually produce tornadoes. Some storms look amazing on radar yet fail to produce. Understanding the failure modes for tornadogenesis (for which there are a myriad) may be nearly as important for understanding the causes. A high FAR likely leads to great complacency that costs lives. Of course, increased warning lead time and decreased FAR is only one intended benefit of this work; other goals include things such as better understanding of the low-level flow within tornadoes (e.g. how does the wind at 10 m compare to the winds at 500 m, 1 km, etc.) that can be used to assess near-surface winds and, perhaps aid in constructing safer buildings. The various VORTEX2 websites have some very good information on them that explains the need for the project and how the project will affect our understanding, forecast abilities, etc. It's also worth noting that in-field data collection is only one part of this project, which also includes things such as tornado damage surveys and very high-resolution, storm-scale numerical forecast modeling.

For those who haven't read it, you may be interested in reading the VORTEX2 Scientific Program Overview, which explains the goals, expected outcomes, etc, of this project.

As Dan so excellently put it, nobody is required to do anything to help the project. Chasers spend a lot of money, time, and effort to get to the right spot to view the tornadoes, and we all have the same rights to the roads. However, please also realize that there's a good chance that you'd be much less successful as a chaser if it weren't for the scientific endeavors of the past 10-25 years. Don't look at any computer models, don't read any NWS or SPC forecasts, and don't pay any attention to radar data -- things all correlated with severe weather research and investigation. Yes, folks were chasing well before we had WSR88Ds, SPC prob outlooks, and high-resolution numerical forecast models, but I bet dollars to dimes that most of us are better (i.e. more successful) chasers as a result of these. Of course, this is to say nothing of the improved warnings that have resulted from our increased understanding of thunderstorms and tornadoes that have come from field experiments such as VORTEX.

Again, to reiterate, nobody associated with V2 really has any more rights to the roads than anyone else or any other chaser! It would be nice to have a place to deploy a radar, but nobody's going to demand someone give up his/her spot. Some of the relatively hostile comments made here confuse me -- we're all chasers, after all!

In the mean time, I'll be sure to seek out, say, Shane, and ask him to move just for the heck of it

 

[George Limpert]

First of all, my opinions I'm posting here are my own. They in no way represent anyone else's view. My opinions are my own and do not reflect on the views of any of my colleagues at UNL, UNL itself, VORTEX2, or anyone else. They are my own opinions and should not be interpreted otherwise.

I don't think anyone would argue with you that placing more radars on the Plains would be a bad thing. But the funding for that would likely come from the Department of Commerce or the Department of Defense. My understanding is that a lot of the funding for VORTEX2 is coming from National Science Foundation grants. It's two different sources of money and the funds for VORTEX2 couldn't easily be reallocated toward installing new radars on the Plains.

As for the secrecy of VORTEX2's target area, that's done for a good reason. Sure, people will know where VORTEX2 is deploying to, eventually. It's hard to ignore an armada like that. People will see it, and word will get out about which areas and/or storms VORTEX2 is targeting. That's not the point, as I see it.

The point is that if the forecasts are made public, people will be more likely to assume that VORTEX2's forecasters really know what they are doing, and will gravitate toward those areas. This is especially true, I suspect, for inexperienced chasers. If that information isn't made public, hopefully many people will have already targeted other storms as a result of their own forecasting, and won't be inclined to gravitate toward VORTEX2. If lots of people gravitate toward where VORTEX2 is deploying, that doesn't just hinder the collection of data. It means increased traffic and potentially more difficulty for other chasers and for emergency vehicles. If you happen to be targeting the same storm that VORTEX2 is targeting and lots of chasers go after that storm because VORTEX2 is there, that doesn't just affect VORTEX2. It also hinders your ability to chase the storm, too.

It's not possible for an armada like VORTEX2 to be discreet. But if information about VORTEX2's targets don't get out until many people have already targeted other storms and other areas, perhaps the chaser convergence can be minimized. Remember, it doesn't just affect VORTEX2's ability to collect data. It also affects all the chasers and emergency vehicles that have to do with the convergence, too.

I also don't see why this is turning into an us versus them argument. It's my understanding that all participants in VORTEX2 are expected to be respectful toward anyone they encounter in order to project a favorable view of the project. I'd like to think that it's possible for all the observers, scientists and otherwise, to get along and be able to observe a storm without interfering with each other. If if means finding a different spot to observe with a camera because a radar truck would like the spot to avoid ground clutter, I'd like to think many chasers would agree to relocate a short distance. If not, it won't stop VORTEX2 from operating, though. And remember, minimizing chaser convergence around VORTEX2 doesn't just help VORTEX2. It also helps minimize chaser convergence for everyone else. Would you be happy if you happened to target a storm VORTEX2 was on and the chaser convergence interfered with you?

Hopefully we can all be civil about this and at the very least coexist.

 

[Jacob Ferden]

As for the secrecy of VORTEX2's target area, that's done for a good reason. Sure, people will know where VORTEX2 is deploying to, eventually. It's hard to ignore an armada like that. People will see it, and word will get out about which areas and/or storms VORTEX2 is targeting. That's not the point, as I see it.

It already has happened. This goes back to my original beef with TWC. They were reporting exactly where they were located, and this was at 11:00 CDT, not at 4:00 or 5:00 when almost everyone is already en route to their selected target. Sure, the sheer size of the caravans is going to alert people to their presence, but I don't think it's necessary to advertise it on the internet hours before the storms develop.

And I agree with you, we need to be more civil about this, and I have been as guilty as anyone. That stops now.

 

[Adam Lucio]

I believe in a "first come first serve" philosophy.

I want V2 to succeed in their mission as much as everybody else....but if Im there first I dont see what gives them the right to barge in and demand I move. Maybe if they respectfully asked me to move up a little bit I probably wouldn't mind...it depends on the attitude Im given...if I get the sense who ever is asking me to move is just power tripping because theyre with V2 then I will purposely be a dick and not move. However, being nice and polite and respectful to me will yield a better response.

On the same side...if they are there before me I would never even think about parking myself in the middle of what they're trying to do simply because I believe we all have the same rights.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

I want V2 to succeed in their mission as much as everybody else....but if Im there first I dont see what gives them the right to barge in and demand I move.

Nothing gives anyone associated with V2 the right to "barge in and demand" you move, and I know the V2 PIs would all same the exact same thing. Please, if that happens, I'm sure the V2 coordinators would like to hear about it (or let me know, and I'll forward it on). Many of the V2 participants are regular storm chasers when not a part of the project, and I know many feel the same way you do. Before we get too overblown, I don't think anyone has experienced any sort of "power tripping" from any V2 participants (again, most of whom are professionals, grad students, and/or chasers anyway), nor should anyone expect that!

 

[Lanny Dean]

There are some amazingly selfish and, IMO, stupid attitudes towards this going on here. Hopefully it's not as prevalent as I think it is, but let me have a shot at this: you're one in probably close to one hundred chasers filming the same storm. The radar truck maybe only one of one which can accomplish the mission it's out to do. You happen to be parked in the one in maybe five spots that the radar truck can park (within a mile area or so); meanwhile, your vehicle can park almost anywhere given it's not in the roadway. And you won't move? I'm sorry, given that you have that knowledge and you don't move you're just being a dick. That's fine...I understand, I'm a bit of an ass myself...but really, get over yourself.

And just for a record, I don't think this will be a problem as most people are courteous and understand the limitations of trying to park a radar truck in rural counties.

And as far as owing something as a reason to move or not to move: what a crock of BS. And steamy BS at that. There's not one chaser out there who can't say they don't owe anything to the field of meteorology. A lot of meteorologists work their butts off on forecasts, models and collecting obs, and the the webpages to bring you all of those things for free. So yeah, you do owe maybe a little and you might ask those people what they want more: your video or that radar truck's data.

Interesting quote and thought process....the idea that we (chasers) should move if asked so that a radar truck might be able to gain vantage on a given situation and in the same breath requesting respect for meteorologists for simply doing their basic job functions!?!?
Please correct me if I am wrong but is that not what we pay them for? (our tax dollars) unless of course they are in the private sector and then all the "rules" change, but of course this is not private sector....and I for one am appalled at the thoughts of some of the "educated" people who feel that this undertaking is or will be the "be all end all" for tornado forecasting.
Understanding that while it is true that we learned some from the first project, we have all no doubt heard/seen (through major networks) the DOW units floating around year after year trying to collect data and in quite a few occasions actually doing so successfully. Where is that data?
What have we learned from that data? Being paid to roam around the country (by a major network) and trying to label it science is wrong.... does not matter how you slice the butter......lets call a spade a spade.

Now we have Vortex 2 with a major budget the likes of which we "common
chasers" ie. (non educated...you know the ones...the ones who gave video, time, reports, true ground truth reports all using our own hard earned money I might add) have never seen asking that we move our vehicles so as to give the radar trucks a better view.....I say where is the logic in that?

I wonder why no one has really asked the true question IMO,
what did we really learn from Project Vortex (1) and how did we apply what we learned to tornado forecasting today?

11 or 12 hypothisis regarding tornado genesis which no one named scientist can or will agree on just does not cut it for me.....and in saying so, this no doubt has an effect on what I would say or do if asked to move my vehicle so that a DOW unit or the like could have a better vantage....
I do not owe the meteorological field anything....none of us do.
They have and are simply doing the job we have employed them to do, anyting else is just a bonus.
To think otherwise puts our thought process the same as the companies who's CEOs decided that balloon payments were really needed and we all see just where that got us.
I know this may sound a little harsh but I am guessing that the "yahoos" who have paid who knows how much money to drive 500 miles to see a storm/tornado would probably have the same message.....
"I am not ****ing moving so that your radar truck has a better field of view, you should have been here 10 minutes ago"

Please keep in mind that I consider myself a yahoo chaser and am very comfortable with that, furthermore I would almost request any DOW unit or support vehicle ask me to move, as a small business owner, one which relies on severe weather as means to my livlihood....I might just tell them to kindly **** off.
I have just as much right to be out there as the "educated guy"

 

[Adam Lucio]

Nothing gives anyone associated with V2 the right to "barge in and demand" you move, and I know the V2 PIs would all same the exact same thing. Please, if that happens, I'm sure the V2 coordinators would like to hear about it (or let me know, and I'll forward it on). Many of the V2 participants are regular storm chasers when not a part of the project, and I know many feel the same way you do. Before we get too overblown, I don't think anyone has experienced any sort of "power tripping" from any V2 participants (again, most of whom are professionals, grad students, and/or chasers anyway), nor should anyone expect that!

Well I wasn't implying anyone from V2 thinks that, I was referencing a hypothetical situation I came up with given the direction this thread has taken. How I would react IF thats what happened to me.

I should have been a bit clearer on that, its late and my brain is mush from forecasting the current setup

 

[Jason Foster]

This thread is becoming quite entertaining. It also is showing a lot of peoples true colors. Glad we have a "real names" policy here.....certainly helps me form opinions about certain folks.

I don't seem to remember any of this bickering and arguments when the original VORTEX project came out....but I hadn't chased yet then either....was just learning about it all, and the internet was limited...so perhaps that's why.

 

[George Limpert]

I believe in a "first come first serve" philosophy.

I want V2 to succeed in their mission as much as everybody else....but if Im there first I dont see what gives them the right to barge in and demand I move. Maybe if they respectfully asked me to move up a little bit I probably wouldn't mind...it depends on the attitude Im given...if I get the sense who ever is asking me to move is just power tripping because theyre with V2 then I will purposely be a dick and not move. However, being nice and polite and respectful to me will yield a better response.

On the same side...if they are there before me I would never even think about parking myself in the middle of what they're trying to do simply because I believe we all have the same rights.

The VORTEX2 operations plan is a 70-or-so page PDF document. There's a section of it that's required reading for all VORTEX2 participants. That section explicitly describes the conduct expected of everyone who is involved with VORTEX2. That includes being respectful of others and promoting a favorable image of VORTEX2 to everyone, even those who are rude to the VORTEX2 participants. That section also explicitly forbids disclosing the position or the target of the armada. That section was required reading. I'm not really sure where the notion of VORTEX2 assuming priority over others comes from. As I've said previously, I hope we can all at the very least coexist.

 

[Laura Duchesne]

Maybe I just don't see the issue here... today V2 and our crew SHARED the same storm in the TX panhandle. Sure we saw each other a couple times... but we never had a problem with each other at all. It's big country out here... there's plenty of room. We each did our own thing and everyone was just fine at the end of it all.