VORTEX2

I know a couple of ST members from OU that are participating in VORTEX 2. Don't think I can list all of them off, but there are a few. Also, VORTEX 2 will not be broadcasting their location due to security and safety reasons. They really don't want people following them around and interrupting their operations.
 
I know a couple of ST members from OU that are participating in VORTEX 2. Don't think I can list all of them off, but there are a few. Also, VORTEX 2 will not be broadcasting their location due to security and safety reasons. They really don't want people following them around and interrupting their operations.

Just watch the TWC and you'll know where they're located. Today there in Custer county off I-40.
 
For the life of me, I will never begin to understand how they could give that much freedom to The Weather Channel..."The Great Tornado Hunt"...more like "The Great Ratings Hunt"...give me a break, it's a government research project, and they keep TWC in radio contact...It's one thing for TWC to tail behind them, which V2 has no control over, but it's another for V2 to give them that much access. :mad:
 
For the life of me, I will never begin to understand how they could give that much freedom to The Weather Channel..."The Great Tornado Hunt"...more like "The Great Ratings Hunt"...give me a break, it's a government research project, and they keep TWC in radio contact...It's one thing for TWC to tail behind them, which V2 has no control over, but it's another for V2 to give them that much access. :mad:

I'm not sure what your grumble is. Yeah, TWC is covering Vortex 2. Why shouldn't they? If your channel's job is to cover weather news and there's an armada of science vehicles out there studying big sexy tornadoes, I think it'd be in your interest to follow along. They're probably paying for the right to do so. If so, then that money goes to funding the project in the future. On top of that, if there is one thing "Storm Chasers" should teach any research crew, it's that having the media follow you around is one way to help raise awareness of what you're doing and bring in more grant dollars.
 
I'm not sure what your grumble is. Yeah, TWC is covering Vortex 2. Why shouldn't they? If your channel's job is to cover weather news and there's an armada of science vehicles out there studying big sexy tornadoes, I think it'd be in your interest to follow along. They're probably paying for the right to do so. If so, then that money goes to funding the project in the future. On top of that, if there is one thing "Storm Chasers" should teach any research crew, it's that having the media follow you around is one way to help raise awareness of what you're doing and bring in more grant dollars.

I will concede that TWC is likely paying for the rights to maintain radio contact, do the live stream, etc. My main beef with the whole thing stems from three main issues:

A. It's a government project.
B. It ensures that the traffic jams are going to be even worse.
C. Yes, it will raise awareness, but what happens if one of the TWC people gets seriously injured or killed? No amount of money is going to stop that kind of publicity. :(
 
TWC with VORTEX 2. I can see the link there, but it seems like actions that are going on with TWC Channel broadcasting location, etc. are in disagreement with what V2 posted on Facebook:

Disclaimer: Sorry people, but we will not have the ability to post real-time data or let you know where we are. That is just too dangerous! We will do the best we can to keep you updated on our work without compromising the science.

I guess with the Internet you can't hide anymore, no matter what precautions you take.
 
I will concede that TWC is likely paying for the rights to maintain radio contact, do the live stream, etc. My main beef with the whole thing stems from three main issues:

A. It's a government project.
B. It ensures that the traffic jams are going to be even worse.
C. Yes, it will raise awareness, but what happens if one of the TWC people gets seriously injured or killed? No amount of money is going to stop that kind of publicity. :(



A: ... and your point is? (Actually, it's a project made up of many private research groups and universities that are coming together. Part of their funding is governmental. Your favorite college football team is also partly government funded. I assure you it does not stop them from promoting themselves.)

B: So? When did chasers get so emo about chase convergences? I mean I live in Nebraska -- I am usually blessed with traffic free roads. On past vacations, I have found driving in LA at rush hour to be tedious and frustrating, but I didn't pretend that I had more right to the road than any of the other commuters making their way out to the burbclaves. How is some dirt road in Kansas any different?

TWC is out there so that millions -- MILLIONS -- of people can see what is going on without having to actually go there. If it adds a few more trucks, big deal. I'm guessing most of society would deem what TWC is doing out there to be of incalculably more value than what you're doing. And it's not like it doesn't help us chasers who are trying to make a side income or a living off of chasing; having media cover things like this stimulates public interest, which stimulates economic activity surrounding our hobby.

C: I'll tell you what happens... nothing happens. A small number of chasers seem to think that the moment some media guy gets hit by lightning and dies on a chase, the SS will take up strategic positions along the highway and start rounding up chasers for the camps. If anything, any reporter killed while reporting on a scientific study into tornadoes will be remembered and likely honored as a hero, much as killed war correspondents are. (That's not really the reality of it -- they would have been, after all, just doing their job... and a job that's not statistically that much more dangerous than a normal reporting job. But I'm pretty sure that's how it would play out.)
 
Actually, unless I missed something, we all have the right to be out storm chasing, no matter how irresponsible and crazy some people are. I'm one of the first to bash people for being absolute idiots out on the road, but they do have the right to be there. I just don't want them to end up getting hurt, simple as that. So as far as Vortex 2 goes, I hope they accomplish what they are looking to accomplish and lives are saved, but I seriously doubt they are going to have respect for me as a photographer and videographer to stay out of a shot, which I wouldn't expect mind you.

It's the same thing as with reporting. I just don't do it because I'm out there to photograph and video storms and nowadays the guys who usually report are out in full force every time. I have no other higher purpose or meaning for being out except to get the shot. And I will continue to do that so long as this country allows me to do just that. I'm not concerned about the science or anything, and if that makes me selfish then I guess I could care less, I do what I do for myself, not to help save lives. I wish Vortex 2 the best of luck, and I'll continue to chase as responsibly as I always have to 'help' with things. But I won't be bending over backwards to help them while sacrificing a shot in the meantime.

EDIT: I also want to add I honestly don't foresee any of this being a problem. If you pull off the road all the way like you are supposed to, drive responsibly and don't sit your tripods up on a busy road, I honestly don't think myself/anyone else and Vortex 2 (or anyone else) will get in each others way. I think they'll have a lot more general trouble simply due to the amount of chaser convergence there will be and people who won't do these simple things. However, if the situation did happen and if I was doing what I should be doing (as far as being off the road and such) I'm not going to move my car or anything for them...if I have to deal with chaser convergence they're going to have to as well ;)

Chris, I want to say this as respectfully as I can, but I find this sort of attitude very frustrating. Sure, you have the right to be out there chasing just like everyone else. You have the "right" not to report what you are seeing. You are not obligated to move out of the way to let a science vehicle in to a good spot. The issue here is not "obligation" or "rights", it's more about courtesy and goodwill and whether you will be willing to extend these to others out on a chase.

Regarding submitting reports, this is, in my opinion, where moral responsibility (not obligation) comes in. If you are one of the few people on a dangerous tornadic storm heading toward a populated area, and you have the ability to submit a real-time report about a developing tornado, don't you at least feel a twinge to the effect of "Gee, maybe I should report this"?

Regarding the science, it's also too bad that you feel this way. Have you considered that the very science you claim you don't care about is also what has made it possible for you to have such easily-accessible weather data both on and off the field, so that you can indeed get into a good position to get your great shot? For that reason alone, I would think you would have at least some respect for it.

Finally, regarding the V2 vehicles, as someone who has driven radar trucks on several missions over the past few years, in addition to just general, non-scientifically-motivated chasing, I know how hard it is to find a good spot that is level and free of nearby obstructions that would block the radar beam. Such locations out on the plains are fewer and farther between than you might think. I never *expect* any chaser who happens to be parked at the only decent spot to deploy for a few miles around to get out of the way simply because I'm driving a radar truck for scientific purposes. However, given the opportunity, I will politely *ask* them if they might move away. If they don't, no skin off my back, and I do my best to find another spot. If they do, so much the better and I am very grateful for that. I think I probably speak for most other scientific chase vehicle operators out there in this regard as well. No, we don't have any more right to be out there than you do, which is why its so important for all of us to cultivate goodwill and be polite. Thus, I'm encouraging you to consider the above when and if you get into this situation with a V2 crew vehicle out on a chase. Consider moving out of the way if they ask. You don't have to, but I'm sure you would have their gratitude if you did. Even if they are real jerks about it (which I sincerely doubt would happen), what matters is how you respond.

Just some things to think about.
 
C. Yes, it will raise awareness, but what happens if one of the TWC people gets seriously injured or killed? No amount of money is going to stop that kind of publicity. :(

So what if one of the TWC people got injured or killed? Naturally it would cause publicity, but I'm not sure what your point is. Storm chasing is a dangerous hobby, just like racing, mountain climbing, parachuting. Compared to other extreme hobbies, storm chasing I would say ranks as the least dangerous given the fact that more people have died in other hobbies than those who died storm chasing.
 
I agree with Chris. I don't owe anything to anyone for being out there. I'm not going to ruin my shot if I'm there first and someone else rolls up and asks me to move. Are they going to pick up the tab for my gas and food for the day, if I ruin the shot I just spent hours and hundreds of miles to get? Absolutely not.

Hey, science is great. But it's not my personal responsibility to make sure VORTEX2 goes without a hitch. I'm certainly not going to be rude towards them (or any other chasers) just for "being there", but I'm not "getting out of the way" when I'm already parked, setup, and established on a shot. Like Chris said, I sure don't envision a VORTEX mobile mesonet kindly moving out of the way of my shot, so why should I scratch a back for free?

But overall, this isn't even going to be an issue. If it is, VORTEX can blame themselves for having someone from TWC riding along doing live streams constantly, and (this just seems ridiculous to me) having a Facebook page. For a scientific project that has made no secret of the fact it wants no part of chaser hordes and attention, a Facebook page sure seems a contradiction of this mentality.

Again, I think it's great they're doing VORTEX2, hell I was even offered a spot on the team a few years ago (declined for obvious reasons). I don't think independent chasers (meaning chasers who are out there to get the shots solely for their own personal enjoyment...a dying breed) are going to be an issue with scientific chasers, or vice versa. There's a lot of space out there, and those who get there first deserve the spot, because they did something better than the guy who shows up later, be it luck, forecast, or real-time storm intuition.
 
Shane,

I don't disagree in principle, and I certainly am not saying anyone is obligated to move. I never stated that anyone *owed* it to anyone else to do anything for them out on a chase. I can also certainly understand the inconvenience of moving once you've already set up and are shooting. All I was trying to say to Chris was to consider it if it were asked of him, that's all. Again, it's about considering the needs of others and weighing yours against theirs. If there is only one good spot for a large radar truck to deploy, and all the chaser has to do is move 30 ft down the road a bit, it doesn't sound like too much to me for the radar to at least *ask politely* for them to move, without expecting anything, mind you. This is a far cry from the chaser "taking personal responsibility" for their scientific success! I'm sure all of us have asked ourselves, "Why should I do X for this person, he wouldn't do it for me?", but we can also just as easily ask, "Why not? Maybe they do have a better reason for it." This obviously extends to far more than just chasing, but I don't want to wax philosophical here. Again, none of this is trying to lay the burden on any one group to yield to the other, but only a call for everyone to show each other goodwill out there.

Regarding the Facebook page and the TWC publicity, I can see the point about not wanting to invite the hordes, but I really think they are trying to strike a balance, and it is not an easy one to strike. Consider if there were zero real-time publicity about the project. No one would know that such an arguably important scientific venture, making use of American tax dollars, was out there trying to improve our understanding of tornadoes and severe weather. With such things like a facebook page and media coverage, the public *does* know and gets excited about it. After all they're the ones who are partially funding it. As such, they deserve to have a reasonable view of the fruits of their support.

At the same time, they don't want everybody to know everything about where they are going to be, simply for safety and security reasons. Obviously, this is *not* directed at serious chasers like yourself, since they will likely be out in the same area anyway. It is more directed at Joe Public TWC-watcher who gets it into his head to go out and try to find the Vortex crew so he can learn how to chase tornadoes. As we all know, there are better ways to learn how to chase. Sure, he may get out there and see some tornadoes, but without any severe weather knowledge, he won't know *why* they are making the decisions they are.

So, there really is no easy answer; some publicity is desirable, but too much invites problems. Personally, I think they are striking the balance as well as they can.

And you are probably right, I think there is room for both independent chasers and the scientific crews out there, and there need not be major issues if everyone plays nice.

That's cool that they offerred you the spot, but I'm just curious, why did you decline?
 
I'm with Shane on the contradiction of the Facebook page, but I think they're walking the fine line that the Internet provides which is the line between publicity and privacy. The Internet really blurs that line quite a bit with Facebook, Twitter, and in general the infinite stream of information that is constantly being put out. I'm not going to say whether or not they are justified in what they are doing, primarily because the Internet's culture and information dissemination is new and the invisible social rules to it have not fully been made.

I have to somewhat side with Jacob on his observation on when a media person gets killed or injured. The backlash may not be like what those small number of chasers Ryan mentioned, but it's a much smaller scale throughout the public and possibly police officers. It all depends on how the media puts the story together, which will most likely include drama. Yes, the theoretical reporter was doing his job. Would such an event affect the perceptions of the public on the chaser community?

The public doesn't have a very good knowledge of storm chasing. Just from personal experience I've noticed that the concept of Twister and the Discovery Channel's Storm Chasers series are pretty well engrained in people's brains. They are always shocked to know that it's the tornado that's least likely to kill you when chasing. They don't think things through and that's the negative.

There already is quite a lot of focus on VORTEX2 from the media. There's a difference between someone getting killed without media focus beforehand, and someone getting killed while they're in the media spotlight. The difference may be small, but it's something to consider. Got to think like the media in those situations, and how best would they sell the story. I'm in no way considering some anti-storm chaser thing would happen or the apocalyptic future Ryan described. You can't stop the chaser, but you have to pay attention to the perception we get.
 
Don't worry Dan, you did a good job with your post on some of your points. But I have a few counter points to consider.

Chris, I want to say this as respectfully as I can, but I find this sort of attitude very frustrating. Sure, you have the right to be out there chasing just like everyone else. You have the "right" not to report what you are seeing. You are not obligated to move out of the way to let a science vehicle in to a good spot. The issue here is not "obligation" or "rights", it's more about courtesy and goodwill and whether you will be willing to extend these to others out on a chase.

I would say I'm one of the best as far as chasing responsibly and such as I almost always obey the speed laws and make sure my vehicle is parked off the road and such. Unlike many chasers who feel the need to drive 80-100 mph towards a storm and whatnot, I rarely do that. The only times I can remember myself excessively speeding on a storm chase would be a few times to avoid a hail core. So as far as courtesy and goodwill go, I'd say I'm pretty well on par with what it means to be courteous and such while chasing.

Regarding submitting reports, this is, in my opinion, where moral responsibility (not obligation) comes in. If you are one of the few people on a dangerous tornadic storm heading toward a populated area, and you have the ability to submit a real-time report about a developing tornado, don't you at least feel a twinge to the effect of "Gee, maybe I should report this"?

I rarely, if ever, get a chance to chase outside of Oklahoma, NW Texas and the E. TX Panhandle due to the simple fact I have a lot of other things going on. So taking a full day to chase is usually pretty unrealistic. On that token, there is rarely (if ever) a time today where there is a tornadic storm with no one on it. The Skywarn and Local Spotter networks have been set up so effectively in this region so that a storm cannot form without the proper authorities there ready to report. In my opinion, it's just as much as moral hazard to report the same thing they will be reporting via 911 since it could be helping to tie up valuable resources which could go towards disaster recovery efforts (aka an operator). I'm not going to sit out there and not report if I was somehow the only person on a storm...but the odds of that happening today where everyone and their dog chases storms is about as close to 0% as you could be.

Regarding the science, it's also too bad that you feel this way. Have you considered that the very science you claim you don't care about is also what has made it possible for you to have such easily-accessible weather data both on and off the field, so that you can indeed get into a good position to get your great shot? For that reason alone, I would think you would have at least some respect for it.

I think you might be looking a bit too much into my comment. My comments about the science aren't that I don't care about it advancing and saving lives, they are rather directed towards the simple fact I could care less about the scientific importance of a storm when I'm on it. I consider the storm my photography subject and I rarely if ever thing "gee, this might be scientifically important." That will of course, fly in the face of scientists. But it's the same thing when I photograph wildlife or anything of the sort, I just am there to get a great shot, nothing more and nothing less. If I see something I do think is unusual, and if I think no one else got a shot, I will submit it to a NWS office. But again, that's a rarity these days for better or worse.


Finally, regarding the V2 vehicles, as someone who has driven radar trucks on several missions over the past few years, in addition to just general, non-scientifically-motivated chasing, I know how hard it is to find a good spot that is level and free of nearby obstructions that would block the radar beam. Such locations out on the plains are fewer and farther between than you might think. I never *expect* any chaser who happens to be parked at the only decent spot to deploy for a few miles around to get out of the way simply because I'm driving a radar truck for scientific purposes. However, given the opportunity, I will politely *ask* them if they might move away. If they don't, no skin off my back, and I do my best to find another spot. If they do, so much the better and I am very grateful for that. I think I probably speak for most other scientific chase vehicle operators out there in this regard as well. No, we don't have any more right to be out there than you do, which is why its so important for all of us to cultivate goodwill and be polite. Thus, I'm encouraging you to consider the above when and if you get into this situation with a V2 crew vehicle out on a chase. Consider moving out of the way if they ask. You don't have to, but I'm sure you would have their gratitude if you did. Even if they are real jerks about it (which I sincerely doubt would happen), what matters is how you respond.

Just some things to think about.

I'm just thinking about this in a practical manner. I know where you are coming from, and if the situation warranted it, I would gladly pull up if asked politely if the situation with the storm was rather benign. However, realistically speaking, I seriously doubt I'd have anywhere to pull if I had to be asked to move by someone. Chaser convergence is such that there are rarely any places to park anymore, so in the event I do have the one good spot in a 3 mile stretch of land, it's very unlikely I'm going to risk getting suck or wasting the money I put into the chase just to move my car. Unlike Vortex, I don't have tons of money paying for my chase. So unless I'm getting paid to chase by the same folks, it's just part of it.

I got a couple of PMs from guys who expressed pretty similar concerns. I just want to reiterate that I am rooting for Vortex 2 to succeed and I think that most of this isn't going to be an issue. As with most things on ST, people like to speak in hypotheticals and assume the worst case scenario when the reality is much different. I'm not going to be blocking the road or anything preventing Vortex 2 from doing what they're doing like some would have you believe. The reality is that I'm simply out there for artistic reasons but I'm fully rooting on the scientists trying to save lives with a better warning system.

However, the scientists who are out there need to realize that while their reason is important, there are a ton of reasons people might be chasing. I'd like to think if a photographer or videographer got excellent shots of storms that showed how powerful they were and if that photograph was circulated widely, it'd help raise awareness of the destructive forces of storms as well.
 
There already is quite a lot of focus on VORTEX2 from the media. There's a difference between someone getting killed without media focus beforehand, and someone getting killed while they're in the media spotlight. The difference may be small, but it's something to consider. Got to think like the media in those situations, and how best would they sell the story. I'm in no way considering some anti-storm chaser thing would happen or the apocalyptic future Ryan described. You can't stop the chaser, but you have to pay attention to the perception we get.

Coming from a media background and thinking about how sensationalist a lot of it is, I hate to say this, but someone dying from storm chasing really wouldn't really be that big of a deal to the big stations such as CNN or Fox News. Now if there was video of it happening (like the vehicle getting hit) they might show it and give it passing mention a couple times the day after...but we're making our hobby out to be more important than what it really is to the mass media and to the population at large.

If a TWC reporter was killed, that'd be a bit of a bigger deal but again, a couple days or so max after it happened and we'd be on to the next celebrity sex scandal or Armageddon scenario, etc. By the time the next season came around, 1 in 1,000 might vaguely remember that video or that story about the chaser getting killed...but that'd be about the extent of it.

With that said, I sincerely hope this is NEVER an issue. But the realistic side of me says that someday it will happen. :(
 
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