"Tensions Grow Between Tornado Scientists and Storm Chasers"

[Dan Dawson]

As a researcher myself I can understand the frustations of attempting to get the data desired for a project. The only thing I dislike is the suggestion that I produce unsafe conditions for them by myself being out there. Especially when there were instances where V2 vehicles blocking roads and half parked on a lane.

Of course. It's worth pointing out that just by virtue of being on V2 or otherwise doing research, that this somehow puts one in a position of being above the law. Obviously not.

As someone who was caught up in that ridiculous line of cars on May 19th, I don't place blame on other chasers. It was an unfortunate confluence of events that was exacerbated by the shear number of people in one place at one time. No one in particular was to blame. We all were. That's chasing in the 21st century for you. It's something we are going to have to learn to deal with, no matter what your motivation for chasing, and no one is more privileged than anyone else.

 

[Scott Olson]

I love VORTEX2 and personally did not have any problems with them during any of my time chasing. I do think Dr. Josh Wurman's comments are very unfortunate. I guess I was originally hoping he would clarify that they were taken out of context but I suppose not.

I don't think it serves any of us to have this be an artifical wedge between the larger chase community and VORTEX2 or other research programs. Dr. Wurman represents himself (and CSWR). That's all.

Everything is debtable, the exact extent of what will come of the V2 data, the exact extent that chasers contribute to the warning and research process. But I think it's fair to say that both V2 and chasers play an important role. If Dr. Wurman doesn't see it that way, then who cares! The winner should always be science, public safety and our pursuit of our passion and dreams. We had two incidents this year that are soon out of sight and out of mind. There were dozens of chase days where things went by without a hitch, where hundreds of chasers gathered in exhiliration, with V2 and did what they love to do; observe, report, photograph and witness the weather.

There is no us against them, for the vast majority of V2 participants, I suspect that they ARE us.

Thanks,
Scott Olson

 

[Joe Schaub]

I hope people realize that this issue neds to be self policed before the government gets involved and forces the issue of who should and shouldn't be allowed out there. Also, some basic sommon sense should be used. If you see Vortex2 or some other science vehicle, get out of the way. I am strictly an amatuer storm spotter and do so on my own time and for my own personal amusement 90% of the time. I don't want to lose the opportunity to have this hobby.

I say the government getting involved because most of if not all the science vehicles are funded by tax dollars and we all know where the tax dollars come from.

 

[rdale]

I hope people realize that this issue neds to be self policed before the government gets involved and forces the issue of who should and shouldn't be allowed out there.

Oh dear...

That horse isn't even recognizable as a horse anymore...

 

[Joe Schaub]

Oh dear...

That horse isn't even recognizable as a horse anymore...

All I am saying is lets get spotters, amature chasers, and scientific people on in agreement of what to do and not do when chasing now before it's regulated by some inept government department.

 

[jmace]

Forgive me if this is totally out of line as a total newbie with zilch experience. Let me give you an outsider's point of view on this controversy. I have been reading the stormtrack threads for over 3 years and just requested membership. There is a lot to say about you folks that is incredibly positive for me-many of you are "professional meterologists, and students" and many of you are veteran chasers and hobbyists. I am so impressed by the forcast, discussion and report threads on this forum. I don't understand many of the technical terms such as "CAPE" and mb etc and what they mean to a storm set-up but when I read through the forcast discussions and dare I say "collaborations" I get the gist of what may happen and where.

I am impressed mostly with the collaboration and discussion between hobbyists and professionals and believe there is utmost value in both. I do believe chasers have contributed extreme value to research directly or indirectly as well. What other weather
phenomena on earth has so much data collected weather it be via pictures, video or scientific equipment? There is ultimate value in chasers-researchers and scientists can't possibly be in enough places to collect what chasers do-especially with so many from all around the country and world gathering some form or another of data on storms in such a hugely vast area. I believe without chasers researchers would be severly lacking in "observational data" With pictures and video you can discern so many things atmospherically going on around the person on the ground as well as the sky-someday maybe a connection will be made with some of those "trigger" signs that may be of value.

Where else in the world do you have so much data on particular storms from so many angles? There should be some gratitude surrounding the willingness of private individuals spending private money to gather data that no amount of a research grant could possibly fulfill.

Even crazies like Reed Timmer may add value someday. If he wants to get close to a tornado and risk his life so be it-just pray that whatever footage he catches while he's swirling around in the tornado can be retrieved later-just kidding Reed but you are a little nuts!

It would be smart on the part of science to acknowledge the credibility of chasers whether you like them or not they have gathered some form of data in some way that by building a partnership or collaboration may benefit all-especially innocent lives!

I also want to thank Mike Hollingshead and Mike Smith whom I have never met, but are in my area specifically Lincoln. Your forcasts and discussions have become as trusted to me as my own weatherman on TV! Thanks for your dedication to chasing and thanks to all of you who do contribute to the safety of others-meterologist/researcher or hobbyist!

 

[rdale]

This discussion gets hashed and rehashed many many times every offseason, then comes back up every time chaser convergence hits. All I'm saying is go through the prior threads before taking yet another one off-topic.

It would be smart on the part of science to acknowledge the credibility of chasers whether you like them or not they have gathered some form of data in some way that by building a partnership or collaboration may benefit all-especially innocent lives!

Very few chasers gather any form of data, let alone share with scientists. But again, return to the posts from the other scientist researchers on this forum. Not everyone in the science field treats chasers and storm spotters as useless interference to their projects.

 

[Jason Foster]

I'm sure he and his team are steering far clear of this, but I'm curious what Tim Samaras & the TWISTEX team feel about the chaser/scientist relationship. Yes, they don't have the "armada", but getting more points-of-view on this discussion would be interesting, especially from one with both feet in the science and chasing fields.

 

[Tim Balassie]

My very brief two cents:

After reading the many posts this year regarding V2 I'm wondering if perhaps the project might be too big, too ambitious. There seems to be quite a number of people involved in the project, as well as those tangential to it who go primarily for PR purposes, e.g. TWC. [Yes, it's symbiotic. V2 gets publicity for future funding, TWC gets ratings.]

Maybe a lesson learned is that coordinating 40+ vehicles and crews in order to accomplish a variety of research goals under the research funding umbrella "Vortex2" isn't a feasible sampling mechanism in today's environment. Perhaps a change in strategy is called for. It seems to me that maneuvering tens of vehicles continuously around a moving storm on any given available road network isn't going to lead to satisfying every research need. The proof is perhaps axiomatic - if 40 vehicles are logistically too many to get to, and collect data from, tornadic thunderstorms, then 40 vehicles are ... too many.

Could the project be broken-up into more manageable pieces? Inflow processes here, downdraft processes there, radar analysis someplace else. And, really, drop the entourage(s).

Concerning the science of supercell tornadoes, I had not heard of Descending Reflectivity Cores until just a few years ago. Likewise take a look at some of Paul Murkowski's work on tornado genesis involving vortex tubes (check out the COD page and their Severe Weather Symposium links).

Happy Father's Day to all those dads out there ...

TMB

 

[Patrick Marsh]

Patrick, among the many things you likely already have on your table, as coordinator for V2, perhaps share what we CAN do, and start the conversation toward more coordination and making the vast resource on both sides helpful and productive.

I've started this thread here: http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/showthread.php?p=276121#post276121

Please feel free to join in and make other suggestions.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

But true, and unfortunately, V2 did NOT make the best of 2010. IMO, May 22 and June 17 would have been the "Holy Grail" of tornado research had those 2 events alone been "landed" and studied :-(

IMO June 11th nw KS 3hr stationary tornadic beast and more over the June 16th Dupree stationary tornado machine would have been even better than those for V2. The June 16th one I think would be difficult to top for a V2 storm. 20 minute large tornado just truly did not move anywhere. Seriously I highly doubt it covered a mile until the roping out part. Storm didn't move anywhere for 2 hours and thew out another 5+ tors or so. Then when it did it didn't go far in another hour. Always right by a highway and some roads. Hardly any chasers around to "directly cause failure" lol. No idea where they wound up that day, their last day. The same day Josh did this latest gem interview. I think Josh is just bringing some bad bad karma with all that, evidently.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

No idea where they wound up that day, their last day.

Mike -- V2 operations ended on June15th, unfortunately. The last deployments for most teams were on June14th in western Texas, though we stayed in the NM/TX border area on the final day to give us one last chance of data collection. A couple of teams did, separate from the project, head northward on June16th, but I don't think there was time to make it from western Texas to South Dakota safely in time for that supercell.

Believe me, there was a lot of frustration on all levels on the missed events. However, hindsight is 20/20, all chasers make some mistakes, and the atmosphere rarely is entirely predictable (obviously). Many folks spent a solid 5-6 weeks in hotels and vehicles driving almost the length of the Plains, so the couple of high-profile "misses" do not sit well. Alas, though, as I'm sure we all know, you don't hit the jackpot every chase.

EDIT: Doh! All of the "May" mentions should be "June" mentions! Apologies if this was very confusing, wondering why I was talking about operations ending in the middle of May!

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Mike -- V2 operations ended on May 15th, unfortunately. The last deployments for most teams were on May 14th in western Texas, though we stayed in the NM/TX border area on the final day to give us one last chance of data collection. A couple of teams did, separate from the project, head northward on May 16th, but I don't think there was time to make it from western Texas to South Dakota safely in time for that supercell.

Ah, the quote from the article made me think they were still out...

The chasers basically made a rolling roadblock," he said in a phone interview Thursday, while preparing to head out for his last day of data collection.

I guess Thursday was the 17th too.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

Ah, the quote from the article made me think they were still out...



I guess Thursday was the 17th too.

Yeah, the CSWR group was one that stayed out past official V2 operations. Official ops ended on June 15th, and most teams went back to their home institutions. I know of at least one other group that is still out chasing in the Plains, though.

 

[Ryan Moats]

I believe as noob myself and hindering on science that could save lives, i believe all chasers without proper communications to nws or of any official capacity should move over for V2 and maybe V3 in the future.

After hearing and seeing the pics of the chase convergence, it's ridiculous and will end up someone getting hurt or killed.