Debate: Is an Association Really Necessary

[Amos Magliocco]

Maybe we can all agree that, at this point, we don't even know what we're arguing about. There are no specifics on the table, no details or formal plans to accept, reject, or debate. All we're debating now are theoretical ideas of what something like this might look like, and those who in general don't like the idea come up with the worst case scenario, and people like me come up with the best case scenario, but neither is particularly grounded in reality.

Would it make more sense to get a few specific ideas on the table first, then decide if they're good or bad? A few people are working on this, myself included, not because we want to be 'in charge' but because we want to get opinions on specific ideas. It's very difficult for opponents to assail ambiguity, then have supporters respond with more ambiguity--all of it pulled out of the air.

Are people willing at least to look at some specifics in a few days and keep an open mind until then?

 

[Shane Adams]

Sure, I'm willing to look at list of actual proposals. I'll be as fair and objective as I possibly can.

 

[Amos Magliocco]

Well, I'm working on trying to outline my two ideas in some detail. But I have only those two, so...that's not very many--lol. Several people mentioned other specific ideas in various threads.

Since TimV has opened an entire forum for this, we have some real space to spread out. Pulling some words from politics, we could make each 'plank' of a 'platform' its own seperate topic within this forum, and use that method to accept, reject, modify, and debate every specific idea.

If all the ideas are shouted down, then we'll know that the whole plan is a bust. I won't shed any tears, I promise. This is already sounding like a lot of work. But then we can say that we tried.

I'll try to get my two ideas posted as seperate topics by Saturday afternoon. Everybody knows what they are by now since I've put them in every post all day--LOL--but I'd like to add a little detail and anticipate potential objections.

Others could do the same--lets take advantage of a cool and powerful database forum here.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Sounds reasonable and objective to me. I'll try to have mine outlined over the weekend as well.

 

[Richard Halter]

My idea is to have it first and foremost be some form of PAC - Publicity Action Committee.

For every Emergency Manager who has a bad story, there must be many who have been helped by chaser information, for example. We are a valuable asset to public safety as a part of our hobby/avocation, and need to get that out.

We could use a sympathetic national reporter.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

May take me a few more days to put anything more formal together, as this weekend has shaped up considerably for chasing (and I think we all know given the choice, which I will choose)

So anyway - I'll probably run into some of you somewhere under a storm in the next day or two, and you can feel free to pick up the nearest big rock to throw at me if you'd like ...

Later,
MP

 

[Kevin Scharfenberg]

I think one reason most of the CFDGers aren't responding are that 2/3 of them have been chasing since this idea came up!

I sense a major lack of consensus on what such a group is meant to accomplish -- or at least I can't figure it out! I suggest one of the proponents write out some bullet-points about the purpose for such an organization-- a first hash at a "charter" if you will. That might give us some things to debate.

I'll throw out a few of my own, if I were starting a storm chasing organization:

1. Public relations - There's no way to avoid this aspect, so might as well confront it. There is intense public interest in the hobby. Such an organization should have a few people willing to work with the media during and after major events, appear on talk shows, etc.

2. Charity/public service - This would be an important aspect to me if I'm going to take time out of my personal life for this, though I think there should be no obligation for any member to participate. Possible activities include working with disaster relief agencies, holding blood drives, speaking at civic clubs and schools, etc.

3. Archival/library services - There has been some talk "elsewhere" about the fact a lot of slides/film/video are now being lost as the hobby comes of age. Such an organization could become a central library for people who either want to donate some of their film/video/etc. for an archive, or for someone who doesn't want to see their 25 year old tornado film disintigrate. This is true for individuals as well as the government (e.g., NSSL). Also, some people will want their old slides/film digitized.

4. Spotter training - The NWS does a great job at this, but they have limited resources for holding classes and developing materials. A lot of NWS trainers still only have slides and filmstrips from the 1980s to show! A lot of great videos from chasers that could be very useful in spotter training never is seen.

5. Scientific/real-time data collection/warning coordination - Pretty soon we will all be able to transmit our videos/images in real-time to the web from the field. A lot of people adorn their vehicles with weather instruments. A lot of this info could be extremely useful to real-time warning forecasters, and to scientists studying events afterwards. Unfortunately, the government has limited resources to accomplish bringing all of this technology together into the scientific and warning processes. This could be a great project for a lot of the technologically-inclined folks among us.


Above all, there should be no stigma for people who choose not to join. I agree with the posters who have said that trying to solve the "problem" of yahoo chasers in this manner is foolhardy -- such people will not want to join anyway, and safe/sensible chasers who do not want to join will tend to be unfairly lumped with the yahoos if that is the overall goal of such an organization.

So...is an organization necessary? Probably not. Is it a good idea anyway? Perhaps!

Comments?

 

[Jeff Miller]

I personally would be very involved in the aspect of charity relations. That would not only be an extremely important aspect of the chase community, I would feel like I am accomplishing something for myself and said group. Imagine the poistive aspects of organizing food, clothing, etc... even possibly our own salvation army type disaster assistance program! This not only excites me, I personally cannot wait to see that develop.

 

[Bobby Lang]

I know I am new to Storm Track, but I am going to throw in my 2 cents...

For those that say it will fail & we should not even try...
First, I'll start with a quote from Beverly Sills...

You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don't try.

Just wanted to throw out a stat I read in a book last year that 4 out of 5 small businesses will fail in their first 5 years. How many small businesses each year are started to be the "lone" survivor.

Second, I will just say KISS (keep it simple stupid). If this association was started it needs to be as small as it can so that it does not have an overwhelming workload. Over time when word gets around then one by one it can be expanded to handle more and/or bigger issues. Right now, I think we need to only focus on good PR. So in my book, we need to break that down further which I think Amos & Mike are doing. For a board of directors type thing, I purpose one made up of 12 people who are diversified from police officers or emergency management to chasers etc. These people would debate PR issues and most important, what to do or what action to take.

That's all I'm going to post for now since it's late & I'm going to bed. Plus, I want to wait until Amos & Mike give us detailed data. Feel free to disagree or agree & finally, a good book I'm in process of reading is "Good to Great" by Jim Collins. Although it's about business companies it can be applied to organizations.

 

[Patrick Ware]

Another POV

I just wanted to point out the obvious.
There are already organizations in place for charity and the general welfare of people in a disaster. Documentation of storms can be found all over the INTERNET and in any public library, and traffic laws, local laws and codes have been present for years. Like so many other issues, non-enforcement is the problem.
Education and command and control is provided by the NWS and local RACES groups in many areas.
People who do not follow and obey these laws and rules, much less have the common courtesy to yield to emergency traffic or respect another human being who has just suffered the trauma of a devastating storm with the loss property or life, will not acquiesce to the charter and rules of any association or club which will be rooted in politics and personal agenda.
The science of severe storms is necessary while the pursuit of these same storms for art and enjoyment is a fundamental need for those of us who are left brained.

What is needed is a simple refresher course in courtesy and human compassion from those who chase toward those who become casualties of natures selective process. Our pursuits, no matter what the reason, should not contribute to the evening news and need for more emergency response.

The formation of an association should be for instruction and sharing of experience. To form one which will generate any further legislation will be self defeating.
A healthy balance of maturity and adreneline with a thorough understanding of why one chases sever weather and the dangers involved can go far in achieving a positive appearance to the public. Ego and supercells do not mix well.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Brian Barnes]

benefits for members of an association

I come from a trade association background. In my own humble opinion, I think it would be extremely tough to put together anything solid for storm chasing.

Most associations offer some kind of benefits to it's members. I have seen some ideas on this list in the form of things like "spotter training", and I can't speak for the rest of the country but in the Tulsa area the WCM of the Tulsa WFO takes care of this with a loose association to Skywarn. He puts together a little 1 hour training seminar and travels around to a lot of the smaller communities to train their law enforcement, and emergency management people...so I think "spotter training" is best kept to these type of programs.

When I think of association, I think of "TRADE" associations. Such entities provide things such as bonding for companies. That is the biggest reason that I believe companies join an association. They have to meet a minimum standard set forth by the association and in return they are bonded with a level of protection. Thus, the customers of that company know that the company is reputable. I can't think of any reason a storm chaser would need to be "bonded", unless there was a deeper tie such as an independent or freelance journalist.

Another thing that an association does is hold seminars to convince the target audience they need to do business with members of their association because..... Thinking along these terms, I'm just going to use "video" as a storm chasers 'target' so if an association was established that convinced buyers to only purchase video from association members then I can see that as being beneficial. However, we all know that there is bound to be someone who walks out their front door and films their neighbor's home being relocated to the next town and that video would then be sold and bought whether or not that person was a member of the "storm chaser's association", so I can't see that happening.

The next thing that I would think of is member discounts. I'd join a storm chasing association if I could get a nice discount on a rental van. That said, rental companies might not like the idea of so many storm chasers renting their vehicles for such things (even though I do it all the time). Or, maybe a hotel discount for association members.

But to even put "spotter training" and "storm chasers" in the same sentence???? In my view spotting and chasing are two different animals. There are plenty of sources for spotters to receive the training they need and with so many new chasers appearing year after year, sooner than later EVERY tornado will be witnessed by "chasers" who will call in the report and make the need for a spotter none existant. I can just about hear an emergency manager in Harper County go "why even deploy our spotter network, there are 150 chasers out there under that cell - if it hoses we'll know about it!" I'm getting off topic a little bit, but I think it's a decent point.

My main point is that a "storm chasing association" would most likely fail if there were no money saving or money making benefits. However, if an association existed specifically for "weather journalist" (people who earn at least 50% of the income from storm chasing in the name of journalism) and there were benefits that would allow them to obtain equipment insurance or great discounts, as well as establish a name with purchasers who respected the 'association' for it's high standards in quality and professionalism....then I can maybe see that happening. Just an example, who would you hire to take a family portrait? The guy down the street with a nice SLR or a PPA member? I would choose the PPA member because I know that he has the PROFESSIONAL training to do it right and if he doesn't then he better hope that he's bonded with some level of protection!


-Brian Barnes

===========
Will chase for food!

 

[Chris Sokol]

But to even put \"spotter training\" and \"storm chasers\" in the same sentence???? In my view spotting and chasing are two different animals.

Geez....give me a break. You know what though? You are right in a way. A larger percentage of chasers know their storm features alot better than spotters. No offense intended to ANY NWS Office...but I think that most people agree that, while the basic spotter course is a good introduction, there is definately a need for more advanced training. Budget and time will probably never allow for the NWS to develope and teach advanced spotting topics. Yes...there IS an advanced spotter course, but how often is it offered?

I get so tired of hearing spotters say that chasers have nothing to offer. I especially love to hear spotters that down chasers, but call in scud features as "rotating funnels". I have been parked right next to a spotter before and witnessed this.

Emergency managers that continue to ignore reports from chasers because "They are not spotters" will eventually allow a major disaster in terms of human life to occur. I can promise you this...if I ever have a tornado headed for a populated area and call it in, only to have my report dismissed, thereby allowing no warning of any type to be given and loss of life to occur, I promise you that what I have to say after the event will stop no lower than that states capital...and possibly even further.

I can just about hear an emergency manager in Harper County go \"why even deploy our spotter network, there are 150 chasers out there under that cell - if it hoses we'll know about it!\" I'm getting off topic a little bit, but I think it's a decent point.

And this type of information stream would be bad? One has to wonder what your priorities are. For the public? Are you that afraid that chasers will replace spotter groups? That will never happen. But what is wrong with chasers ENHANCING spotter groups? From what I hear from the Skywarn community, chasers must really be perceived as a threat. Now...couldn't additional training from people that log hundreds, if not thousands of hours a year observing severe weather be of some type of help to those that may get to see 5-10 hours of severe weather in the same time frame? And would this not also not only give spotters and emergency managers a better understanding of chasers, but also give chasers the same of spotters? I would say the answer is a definate yes...as long as people are willing to set their prejudices aside.

Chasers can not only enhance a spotter groups ability to identify potentially dangerous situations, but they can also help to further a spotter groups education level. Several NWS Offices have come to understand this, and welcome chaser reports. Isn't it about time for everybody else to come on board?

 

[David Sallee]

Hey all,

i'm just going to add a little something here... What about your local CERT (Community Emergancy Response Team) training?? We start ours tonight and earlier I brought up that I was a Storm Chaser to the Fire Chief and he thought it would be GREAT to include some extensive spotter/chasing classes with this... this will give the "spotters" a possibly different view of storms and a different view of us (chasers) to the public... Also, nothing against the great job of the NWS training but they are mostly "per certain county" trained... The CERT classes are per "city" trained meaning every city has the own CERT team which is trained and managed locally (per city). But can be and will be called out for any county or neighboring county disaster...

what does everyone think?

BTW, I'm all for the Storm Chase Association...

Dave

 

[Bridget Beddow]

Hello, everyone, I'm a little new to this so I'm trying to get caught up on the topics. I want to say that I am all for an association that provides the
community of science assistance in helping to support the public when it comes to the weather. I live in a likely spot for Category 3 hurricanes, and while North Carolina is definitely not Tornado Alley, I've been through my share. In 1984 I was ten in my backyard Prattville,Al when my mother came out and asked me to come inside due to a tornado watch. Right then a tornado dropped and probably kicked up less dust than me and my mother hauling butt back to the house. In July,1996, I was driving cross-country through Arkansas and ran into (what I know now) was a supercell. Was there a tornado? I don't know, but me being stupid seeing people parked underneath a bridge, I decided to step on through it and after I got into the hail and severe lightning, I thought boy, did I drag my 12 year old brother into something I couldn't handle. In April,2000 I decided to take a week off from work to spend with my fiancee who lived 3 hours away from me and the first day a tornado passed through 1 mile away and completely twisted one of the farm pivots. I've had many many other close encounters, and 9 times out of 10 people will (out of fear or pure stupidity) make decisions that will cost them their lives. I haven't chased tornado's, but they sure seem to like me, and I would much rather be on the informative side than have one drop on me not knowing that I could have prevented the situation I got myself into. I'm going to learn as much as I can about the weather now as a hobby, but I wish they would have had things like this forum back in the day for me to learn from. I've read alot of opinions on the idea of the association and while they are all good points, I really do think that public safety and awareness is a big key to prevention. While having an association that promotes the "good side" of storm chasers may induce dislike from those who are not involved, isn't it reasonable to say that at least there is somebody "for" storm chasers instead of so many people against it? If there is not enough support for an association (ex: lack of funds, promotion, lack of attendance) why doesn't the the NSSL or meteorologists promote what storm chasers do in assistance for the public while others are bashing it. Ex: I don't care if someone wants to drive home from the bar drunk, that's their choice. When they knock over a family member or a good friend, then we're going to have a problem. (I hope nobody takes offense to that, I drink but I certainly don't want to see ANYBODY hurt over a drinking and driving incident) I recently made a comment about storm chasing to someone I don't know that well, their comment was "Those people are so stupid". Why did she think that they're stupid, so far from what I've seen from reading from THIS forum is that they're are a heck of alot of people doing it that are much more educated than she is. Problems are usually only problems if you let them be, but this is a free country and some people do LIKE to cause problems just because they can, as is their freedom. Having somebody who is willing to speak out in defense(in a respectable and professional manner) is definitely a good thing to have going for you.

 

[Jane ONeill]

I'd like to share my perspectives from the inside looking out of the sort of association that you are now considering.

The Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA) was incorporated in May 1999 for the following publicly noted purposes (taken straight from the website):
"ASWA was created for several reasons. Firstly, it enables people interested in any type of severe weather (thunderstorms, tropical cyclones to droughts and blizzards) to meet other people with similar interests. This often occurs at the monthly or bi-monthly state meetings - many members enjoy the opportunity to meet others with similar interests, especially when it comes to exchanging stories, photos and video footage. Meetings vary in their content, but often contain feature presentations (sometimes by guest speakers), comments and descriptions of previous recent significant weather setups and events and the opportunity to share video footage and photos of weather events.

The second reason ASWA was created was a community benefit - that is to assist in severe weather reporting. Currently ASWA focuses on severe thunderstorms (a prevalent threat in Australia), but there is no limit set for the scope that ASWA can cover. ASWA encourages its members to report severe thunderstorms and conduct local damage surveys so that this information can be forwarded onto the Bureau of Meteorology for the issuing of vital warnings and important database information that can lead to further research of severe weather related phenomena in Australia. In the future, ASWA hopes to continue this and report more information - many thunderstorms go unreported, and many areas have very little thunderstorm preparation. ASWA aims to assist in improving the thunderstorm reporting network and give information on how people can prepare for the thunderstorm season. ASWA also aims to extend this to all aspects of severe weather in the future.

Since ASWA's founding, ASWA has conducted several successful activities - these include a Bureau of Meteorology and ASWA combined storm spotter seminar, and the increasingly popular ASWA AGM weekend, which is an annual weekend with a variety of events that attracts many people from interstate to attend!"

We have aims and objectives, and also a disclaimer required for the rather tough insurance requirements in this country (although they are now being relaxed somewhat).

We have found that being a member of the association has given people some credibility when it comes to being in 'odd places at odd times doing odd things' - people stop worrying that you might be going to rob them if you produce a membership card and tell them a little of what we do.

ASWA is also strong on the education side and we are working atm to put together comprehensive information for distribution to schools. Members give public talks and the association has provided a foundation for a group of people who have now developed close and long lasting friendships.

The downsides of an association are the same as those in any formal group:-
- a relatively small number of members run it and do the lion's share of the work
- there are formalities that are required to be followed as per the Constitution, which can take away from those very limited hours of the day that we all have
- money for memberships needs to be handled correctly and banked and then consensus gained from the Exective and committee as to how these funds are to be spent for the good of the group
- the stated desires of the groups are wide ranging dependant upon age, experience, knowledge of the atmosphere and meteorology or lack thereof making some decisions rather difficult when trying to satisfy most of the people most of the time
- as with all groups, if a member does something that brings disrepute upon the group as a whole, it can take a lot of hard work to put things to right

I wouldn't change the fact that we have ASWA having been involved formally in the incporporation of it and the running of it since its inception as joint Victorian State Rep for a number of years and now as National Secretary. It has ben a very useful engine for collecting together individuals with a common interest, after 5 years, the association is now perceived as being a reliable and relevant group by the Bureau of Meteorology, but we have had to prove ourselves.....

for more information re the Code of Ethics and the Aims and Objectives, please feel free to explore:

http://www.severeweather.asn.au/public/about.php

Hoefully this gives just a brief insight as to our experience.

Cheers,

Jane