Chaser Irresponsibility

Yes by all means Dustin:

Lets not worry about kids with guns in schools because those kids can do what they want, it is after all their choice to take a gun to school. Let them worry about themselves cause they wont hurt anyone. Lets stop bothering the drug dealers hanging out at those schools as well, they are just doing what they feel is right, we have no business interfering with them. Lets just worry about ourselves.

While we are at it lets quit worrying about people who drive drunk, hell its their right to drink and drive, if we don't like it we can just stay home.

The problem with all of these arguments is that the potential victims in these cases do not know about the elevated danger. Anyone driving in town in a tornadic situation should have at least an intuitive knowledge that doing so is dangerous, primarily because of the tornado itself and secondarily because of other people on the road during a chaotic situation.

Nobody at a school would go to class if they had the foreknowledge that kids would be arriving that day with guns. I say with confidence that hitting the pavement while a tornado is on the ground in your city is like this foreknowledge. Like I said in my post above, if running these intersections were unwarranted given the chaser's aims, or if the chaser's aims themselves were rotten ones, then he has the right to be lambasted. Otherwise, he does not, and is nothing like a child bringing a gun to school or a man driving drunk on an innocent Sunday afternoon.
 
These are the facts...

Just to be clear, here's the facts...

We were following the tornado and making reports both via the Spotter network and through the live stream webcam.

We were running with our lights on and honking trying to warn people of the danger.

We were not speeding as was implied by others. In fact looking at the video we were being passed by other cars (possibly chasers) who were also running through the intersections without stopping. In fact I didn't see one car in the video that stopped at and intersection except when there was opposing traffic which happened at one intersection. The rest had no cross traffic.

We are not glory hunters. In fact, at the time, I didn't realize the web-cam was even on. And the tornado was so rain-wrapped and almost impossible to see that I was more concerned with safety of myself and my chase partner than to try to get a good shot.

As the tornado came into town we watched it roll in and noticed several people still shopping at the Walmart, completely oblivious to the storm approaching.

My apology was not meant to quell chasers who thought my actions were wrong as much as it was to those who are not in the chase community and might see this as acceptable chase MO, which it is not in most situations. We can debate this back and forth for a long time, but unless each of us is put in this exact situation, it's hard to know how we would react. It is easy to be an armchair stormchaser after the fact, but when you're there, sometimes things aren't so clear-cut and simple. Hope this helps.

Greg
Team Remora

P.S. I will keep my Spotter Logo and Skywarn magnets on my vehicle as I display them in hopes of helping non-chasers, which we have on many occasions, keep safe during these dangerous storms. If I get flack, it's fine, I'm not hiding and welcome chasers and non-chasers anytime to say hi and chat about the weather, that's really what we are all here for anyway.:D
 
I came down on Greg pretty hard for what he did. Others also blasted him pretty good too. Yes, some of us think it was a justifiable means to communicate our displeasure with his actions that may falsely represent us all in some form or fashion. Some disagree with our opinion. No problem with that either.
Will I do it again to the next person?...most likely.
If and when I make the stupid move on video or camera, once again I say, call me up on it. I will deserve it.
But, should any people that are not a part of this forum read it, then they too may see that we don't condone these actions as a whole.
But, I must say that I totally, 100% support Greg in his standing up and admitting he made his boneheaded decision in the heat of the chase. I would guess most of us, probably including myself, would not have taken the beating he did so well.
Greg realizes and admits he made a bad judgement and has stated so and has vowed to rethink his priorities and correct his errors. What more could we ask for?
In my opinion Greg, you have nothing else to explain. I highly respect what you stated and admitted.
Way to go Greg! Let's go chasing!
In the meantime, I have made you the Golden Bonehead Award you must carry on your rearview mirror until someone outdoes you. Then you can pass it on.
 
Before I get to the chaser's motive, here's the answer to the "2 AM phone call" argument as it applies to this case: if a family is on the road escaping a tornado that's in town, they're idiots, plain and simple.


In the case of Picher, Oklahoma on May 10th, thank goodness there were so many idiots there that hopped in their cars and got on out as the tornado approached. Otherwise, the death toll almost surely would have been far more than 6 based on what was left of their homes afterwards. We've heard over 75 vehicles...possibly well over...fled town just before the tornado hit. Your logic may be OK for the weaker tornadoes, but for the F-4's/F-5's of the world, a quick trip out of town is the only answer for many. If I'm at home with my family, and the big one's headed this way, we're out of here...if that makes us idiots in your book, oh well, at least we'll be alive idiots rather than dead geniuses.
 
speech

I will carry this award, not proudly, until such time as I may pass it on to the next recipient (probably won't have much time to get used to it being on my rear view mirror). You might think of mass producing them and awarding them at the chaser convention or at the closest IHOP after the chase.;)
 
If you are attempting to leave an area affected by a tornado with no training or experience on how to drive as safely as possible relative to tornadic situations, you are a fool, and it is your fault - not nature's, and not the actions of a chaser/spotter or some other fool driving willy-nilly away from the storm - that you ended up (possibly with your whole family) at a hospital.


Wrong, but good luck trying to plead your case when that actually happens. I have no training or experience in this situation since the big one has yet to come rolling into Tulsa in the 18 years I've been here. How can you possibly say it's my fault if I go through the green light and a chaser runs the red light and plows into me that it is my fault? Realistically, you can cannot. But if you it really makes you feel better about yourself and feel that it justifies your ridiculous actions, go ahead and believe it all you want. It's along the same lines as the pot users believing it is ridiculous that pot is not legal. It's their justification for something that is really unjustifiable.
 
Your argument is valid, but I don't quite understand what your point is. We aren't talking about a situation where a chaser is leaving a town to get l33t footage of a tube plowing a field on the outskirts, running red lights and putting others in danger in the process. This was a case where a tornado was in the town, and a chaser was following the tornado.

Ahhhh....isn't that exactly what I said? That they were in town running red lights?

Darrin Rasberry said:
Before I get to the chaser's motive, here's the answer to the "2 AM phone call" argument as it applies to this case: if a family is on the road escaping a tornado that's in town, they're idiots, plain and simple...

People, being individuals, react in different ways to these events. People try to rush home, they try to flee, they try to do any number of things. They are not idiots...they are human.

Darrin Rasberry said:
That being said, anyone choosing to be on the road at the time of a tornado - whether trained or not - is inherently choosing to accept the risk of a dangerous driving situation...

So...your saying that anybody who does not react or respond in the way you feel that they should "deserves what they get"? That is absurd.

Darrin Rasberry said:
Now, as for the chaser himself, was he morally right doing what he did? To go back to 1979, listen to the tapes of the spotter network that are archived on the NWS website. Several spotters state clearly they run stoplights to keep up with the tornado, and that was back in a time where less people knew better and thus more panicked people crowded the roads. Were these spotters morally right in doing what they did? I say yes, because they relayed important information about the position of the tornado as it rolled through the city, and at the very least they could have saved other spotters or even people monitoring radio who were otherwise out of power at the time.

So...suddenly spotters are elevated to a status above all other public safety officials? First of all...if they are not associated with an official public safety agency and not in an official (meaning city, county, other agency vehicle or a POV designated as one), they do not have the right...period...to drive in any other manner than any other member of the public. Even fire/ambulance/police are required to stop completely at red lights before proceeding.

Darrin Rasberry said:
Given that his actions weren't of this type, and given that running the intersections was warranted to keep up with the storm or keep out of it, then his actions to break the law were morally justified.

I disagree...as would most public safety directors. And in this situation...sorry Greg...he stated that " We were following the tornado and making reports both via the Spotter network and through the live stream webcam." This has no realtime warning value to either the local public safety agencies or to the general public. The tornado was in town...the local officials knew it...they didn't need chasers "following the tornado and making reports both via the Spotter network and through the live stream webcam." to aid in the warning process. Was this commendable? Yes...as long as all of the laws of the road were followed. To often chasers try to justify their actions by saying that they are spotting. That is simply not true. Even if you are acting in an official capacity...well, my EM would drop me from the agency immediately if he ever caught me running red lights or blowing stop signs. It is simply not acceptable, and is extremely dangerous to both the EVO and the public.

Darrin Rasberry said:
As for Joe Public on the road in a city during a tornado instead of in a shelter, I have very little sympathy for him.

Very nice...I don't even have a response for this that is acceptable on this board.

Darrin Rasberry said:
No matter how much experience one has on one side of a discussion than the other, reality will still always win out every time. We knew of a particular idiot who chucked his kids in his truck and attempted to escape in '79 (instead of getting in his BASEMENT), only to get his truck flipped. Thankfully his kids were okay, but let's say he "booked it" past an intersection and got hit by one of the spotters that day who ran the light and who unfortunately didn't see him due to the chaos. Who would be responsible for the loss of the kid's life in that case? That's right, the dad.

Wrong...absolutely wrong. Don't believe me? Just look up cases of fire, EMS, or police that have hit and killed people while blowing an intersection and see who was deemed at fault. That spotter would be facing Vehicular Manslaughter charges...and probably a host of others.

You really don't seem to have a lot of sympathy for the general public, which makes me wonder why you would even care about spotting, or the public's safety at all. Your callous attitude toward the general public is amazing...it seems as if you are saying that unless they respond to a chaotic, emergency event in the manner that you feel that they should, they deserve whatever they get. Please...let me know if I am wrong. I hope that I am wrong, that I am misinterpreting what you are saying. I can't believe that somebody hold the average citizen with such little disregard.
 
We were following the tornado and making reports both via the Spotter network and through the live stream webcam.
We were running with our lights on and honking trying to warn people of the danger.
Since you were following the tornado, what "danger" were you trying to warn people of?
We can debate this back and forth for a long time, but unless each of us is put in this exact situation, it's hard to know how we would react. It is easy to be an armchair stormchaser after the fact, but when you're there, sometimes things aren't so clear-cut and simple.
Let's not forget that regardless how any of us believe we'd react in the same situation, there is one armchair quarterback sitting on a bench in a flowing robe and twelve more on a jury who can indeed have a huge impact on one's freedom and finances. Anyone who believes arbitrarily suspending traffic laws for whatever reason should be prepared to justify their actions in front of one of those armchair quarterbacks because there is a high risk (pun intended) that they will one day earn the opportunity to do so. ;)
 
In the case of Picher, Oklahoma on May 10th, thank goodness there were so many idiots there that hopped in their cars and got on out as the tornado approached. Otherwise, the death toll almost surely would have been far more than 6 based on what was left of their homes afterwards. We've heard over 75 vehicles...possibly well over...fled town just before the tornado hit. Your logic may be OK for the weaker tornadoes, but for the F-4's/F-5's of the world, a quick trip out of town is the only answer for many. If I'm at home with my family, and the big one's headed this way, we're out of here...if that makes us idiots in your book, oh well, at least we'll be alive idiots rather than dead geniuses.

This is actually a point well-taken for smaller towns such as Parkersburg, Greensburg, or Picher. Larger towns such as, say, if Des Moines got hit instead of Parkersburg, would likely make for a darker scenario with many more people crowding streets that had much less of an ability to handle them - but with advance warning and aware, calm people, this method can save lives.

What I mean with my above argument is the (few now fortunately) panicked individuals that run about like a chicken with their heads cut off and hop in a car because a tornado's comin'.
 
You really don't seem to have a lot of sympathy for the general public, which makes me wonder why you would even care about spotting, or the public's safety at all. Your callous attitude toward the general public is amazing...it seems as if you are saying that unless they respond to a chaotic, emergency event in the manner that you feel that they should, they deserve whatever they get. Please...let me know if I am wrong. I hope that I am wrong, that I am misinterpreting what you are saying. I can't believe that somebody hold the average citizen with such little disregard.

I apologize; I wasn't too clear in my original post. I've been a bit tired and can't illustrate things out too well. Let me see if I can draw up a better outline:

1) Persons in the city in the path of a tornado, or in a city where a tornado is occurring, should seek shelter immediately. Like an above poster mentioned, if there is enough time in advance for persons to evacuate safely and orderly (as in Picher, etc.) then that is certainly a rational option.

2) BUT, if there's a tornado immediately in the vicinity, one should conduct himself in a manner that makes the situation as safe as can be possible - this means seeking safety as soon as a tornado is reported as nearby, or if not possible, escaping the path.

3) Anyone in case (2) who panics and runs is putting themselves and anyone they take with them into potentially a much more dangerous situation. These people are much more of a danger to themselves and to others than spotters or chasers who, wrongly or not, run an intersection. I want to outline that these people are the fools, not people - as I said in my post - who would be attempting to seek shelter or escape in a calm manner as possible because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

3) A chaser or spotter is never justified in running an intersection if that chaser or spotter is not relaying some kind of pertinent and important information in a meaningful way, or escaping the path. Like you said, he shouldn't even be there IMO.

4) A chaser or spotter is justified in running an intersection if they are escaping the path of a tornado, or if they are relaying some kind of pertinent and important information in a meaningful way. Even then (and this is something I didn't specify), they absolutely have to make sure that they aren't going to plow into someone - especially if they're relaying information and not escaping immediate danger.

5) I'm working under the good-faith assumption here that chasers or spotters aren't going through intersections without looking at anything else but a twister, and hauling a@@ at 80mph or something. More than likely these crossroads aren't going to be packed with people, but even so, SLOW DOWN and LOOK.

Here's what I picture in my mind when I'm talking about this: a chaser or spotter following and relaying info about a tornado who is stopped at a red light, at a clean and empty intersection, waiting there for 2-3 minutes to make sure he follows the law. Nobody else is even in the area. Is he justified running this light after he's stopped for a second and looked carefully both ways? Absolutely! Is he justified plowing through at 80mph before ascertaining the situation? NEVER!

6) I'm not sure if the situation is different in your area, but in both of the states I live in, I've seen ambulances, fire trucks, and police run through intersections after slowing down to make sure they don't hit anyone or that someone oblivious doesn't jut out in front of them. Nowadays they have the ability to change lights in advance, but in the past, having the lights and the sirens going gave them the right to go through intersections. Certainly chasers and spotters don't have this right, but in my opinion a trained chaser or spotter relaying information does have the right to run a red light in a tornadic situation if and only if it has been ascertained beforehand that doing so is right and puts nobody in danger. This does not mean truckin' it through at high speeds. But this does mean that they should not be duty-bound to sit at an empty intersection for three minutes waiting for a light to change, if the light still works.

7) A chaser or spotter is never justified in getting in the path of an emergency vehicle or operation in any way (of course).

8) The general public are certainly not held in low regard by myself or anyone else here on this board. Levying that accusation is an ad hominem and is unnecessary, but I will answer the accusation: it is the screaming idiot like we knew in Wichita Falls that I judge harshly. Yes, people who wonder around aimlessly screaming the end of the world on the road instead of seeking shelter or evacuating calmly are human, but so was Ted Bundy; however, Ted Bundy was still an idiot.

Nonetheless, not every citizen out and about during a tornado is automatically a fool. The people running around maniacally having a panic attack with their helpless family in a car, however, are fools, and they're a much bigger hazard than a chaser or spotter running an intersection they've safely ascertained as empty.

9) Driving around in a city during a tornado presents a driving situation that has more danger than a normal driving situation. This says nothing about what people should do - only, it points out that the situation at hand is inherently more hazardous.

10) Given all of this, provided that the actions of a spotter or chaser who is calm, collected, relaying information, and aware of other drivers, and who slows enough to ascertain an intersection (IMO they should briefly stop, which takes care of following law at inactive lights at intersections anyway), such a spotter or chaser is justified in not waiting for a red light at an empty intersection during a tornadic event.
 
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Just to be clear, here's the facts...

We were following the tornado and making reports both via the Spotter network and through the live stream webcam.

Someone asked: Why did we need to keep making reports? That's valueable information that the NWS needs. I'm sure they would like to know if the tornado is still on the ground. The NWS needs that info to warn other towns that are in the path of this storm.

This debate about running red lights and stop signs at intersections can go on forever.

The bottom line is: We are not concidered EMERGENCY vehicles. If we hit someone, we are liable.

Simple solution: Obey the laws. That will eliminate all the problems.

Now, don't I deserve the bonehead award too. It's not fair that Greg gets one and I don't!!!!! lol
 
In the case of Picher, Oklahoma on May 10th, thank goodness there were so many idiots there that hopped in their cars and got on out as the tornado approached. Otherwise, the death toll almost surely would have been far more than 6 based on what was left of their homes afterwards. We've heard over 75 vehicles...possibly well over...fled town just before the tornado hit. Your logic may be OK for the weaker tornadoes, but for the F-4's/F-5's of the world, a quick trip out of town is the only answer for many. If I'm at home with my family, and the big one's headed this way, we're out of here...if that makes us idiots in your book, oh well, at least we'll be alive idiots rather than dead geniuses.


The same happened in 99 with the Moore tornado. Many heard about the tornado on TV and escaped the town before it was hit. While I do not encourage leaving home in a severe storm I do agree to say that when a violent (eF4-eF5) tornado hit I'd rather be out of town then in my basement where having a true reinforced concrete shelter seems to be the only way to garantee safety.

I can't really blame those who try to flea as it is a typical human reaction and they do not have the full knowledge of a storm chaser.
 
This debate about running red lights and stop signs at intersections can go on forever.

The bottom line is: We are not concidered EMERGENCY vehicles. If we hit someone, we are liable.

Simple solution: Obey the laws. That will eliminate all the problems.

Now, don't I deserve the bonehead award too. It's not fair that Greg gets one and I don't!!!!! lol

The bottom line is certainly something for me to consider, Sean, and thanks for writing it directly like that. The argument that we still are liable for our actions if we hit someone because we are paying more attention to a tornado (whether we are technically breaking the law when we hit the other person or not) is a good argument, and it definitely has to be one I consider vs. intersections. Yes, we should not blow through stop signs, dead intersections, or live ones; we should stop and ascertain the safety of the situation. But in the "empty intersection" case if a red light still works, can we really safely ascertain the situation?

Are we still being aware and safe for panicking Joe Public who trucks it the other way even when our light is green?

This should be answered through rational determination. The best answer may be to follow the laws. But the laws may not line up with rationality, and rationality may not line up with the laws. People who believe these actions are immoral because they put others in danger DO have a point; people who believe these actions are immoral because they break the law are people I want to avoid at all costs.
 
Sean's one comment hit the nail on the head. Chasers, no matter how godly you think you are during severe weather, you are not above the law. Just because there is a severe storm or tornado on the gorund doesn't automatically kick you up to the level of civil defense or any other official capacity.

Your reports via Spotter Network are good and there are those NWSFOs that utilize that data. Your streaming video...no one but the weather geeks care about it, except maybe a TV station you could be chasing for. The whole "lights going and horn honking" thing just portrays an image of a crazy weather nut...totally different than flashing red/blue and a true siren.

I've noticed since I started chasing in 97 on the plains the transformation of the attitude of chasers. Ten years ago, technology really wasn't there yet for everyone to have their own personal radar, laptop, and other real-time data on the road. When I started chasing with my old OU dorm roommate it was a stack of maps, the amatuer radios, our phones, and a camera if we saw anything. It is almost like as more and more toys come out, the "easier" it has become for everyone to go out an chase.

More and more people are out chasing and are going all out with the features on their vehicles and equipment inside. Unfortunately, as evidence by posts in this thread, some feel they have a god given right to go above the law in situations. I'm sorry, unless you are an emergency worker for the government, you have no rights just making up what road laws you choose to follow. Most speed limits in small towns are 25-35 on any roads you'll be on. There is no need to blow an intersection at all, since getting back up to speed isn't that big of a deal. And if you have a tornado coming right at you, then you failed at making sure you were in a position to always have an escape route.

Times have changed quickly for chasers in just a few years. More are running with real-time radar and are getting closer than ever. Unfortunately it seems common sense is quickly leaving those that are new(er) to the game. Follow the rules out there, they are to keep everyone safe. Plan your routes carefully - always have a way to get out quickly and don't chase in areas with poor options. Lastly, put the laptop down some time and actually use your eyes. Yeah it helps with pin pointing hail and main areas of interest, but just about anyone with any real education/training should be able to observe the storm without the help of radar.
 
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