Why Not Balloons?

[Steve Miller]

I read an article today about better understanding tornadoes by penetrating them with scientific instruments attached to $30-50k drones. The article is entitled "Drones might help explain how tornadoes form" and can be found here.

I'm really curious as to why rarely anyone considers the weather balloon as a viable way to deliver instruments near to or into a tornado. So many people concentrate on hair-brained ideas like flying helicopters and RC airplanes or shooting rockets, seemingly never able to consider that in application they will be in a supercell environment. Not only are these expensive, they are not going to fly well in the inflow.

Weighted sensors and cameras on the ground have proven successful and seem to be what the majority of chasers and/or scientists lean toward when attempting to gain usable data. The activity of placing these in the path of an approaching tornado can prove deadly though.

So why not the balloon? No, probably not a full fledged weather balloon due to the fact that the logistics of filling on location would be a huge downside; but rather a scaled down version capable of carrying pertinent instruments, cameras, and a locator. Getting the instrument headed toward its target is as simple as releasing it into the inflow. Sure, the balloon will burst when impacted by debris but at that point it is likely close enough to provide valuable data.

 

[Skip Talbot]

I've often thought about this and even designed some rigs that might do the job. I'm not sure the winds would actually allow this to be easily done though. The environmental inflow, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't go directly into the tornado but instead gets carried aloft into the updraft tower. Releasing a balloon into the tornado's inflow jet might require that you be in the RFD. This would be extremely difficult and dangerous as the rear inflow jet's "ghost train" winds can be as damaging as the tornado's. The winds also travel very low to the ground before they rapidly ascend in the corner flow region. Your balloon would likely get snagged on a tree, power line, or driven into the ground unless you were incredibly fortunate to get close enough to the back end of a tornado without any obstructions. Launching a balloon from that position would be quite challenging as I'm sure many of us are familiar with how trying to hold large, light objects in the wind is really difficult.

 

[Dan Robinson]

As crazy as it sounds, the "Twister" concept might actually have some potential in this application. Small balloons from a heavy low-to-the ground container could be automatically or remotely launched at the right time. Speaking of that, where did the Twister instrument pack idea come from? It almost seems too practical to be a purely Hollywood idea. Did they get this from the research community? Anyone know?

 

[Joey Ketcham]

I read an article today about better understanding tornadoes by penetrating them with scientific instruments attached to $30-50k drones. The article is entitled "Drones might help explain how tornadoes form" and can be found here.

I'm really curious as to why rarely anyone considers the weather balloon as a viable way to deliver instruments near to or into a tornado. So many people concentrate on hair-brained ideas like flying helicopters and RC airplanes or shooting rockets, seemingly never able to consider that in application they will be in a supercell environment. Not only are these expensive, they are not going to fly well in the inflow.

Weighted sensors and cameras on the ground have proven successful and seem to be what the majority of chasers and/or scientists lean toward when attempting to gain usable data. The activity of placing these in the path of an approaching tornado can prove deadly though.

So why not the balloon? No, probably not a full fledged weather balloon due to the fact that the logistics of filling on location would be a huge downside; but rather a scaled down version capable of carrying pertinent instruments, cameras, and a locator. Getting the instrument headed toward its target is as simple as releasing it into the inflow. Sure, the balloon will burst when impacted by debris but at that point it is likely close enough to provide valuable data.

Tyler Costantini and I toyed with this idea several years ago and discussed some ideas and did a few balloon release tests. If I recall right, I think he even put together a transmitter that attached to the balloon to send data back. I could be wrong on that least part.

 

[James Gustina]

I think the biggest issue like Skip said would be hitting the sweet spot of the tornado's RIJ and hoping the balloon doesn't get drug across a field full of crap or pulled into an obstruction by an errant burst of negatively buoyant air. It kind of reminds me of the issues that TVN had with those parachute probes which would likely be exacerbated with a big, hard to control balloon in insanely powerful winds.


Dan, I'm pretty sure they just took the idea of TOTO, which looks mighty similar and had the same general objective (and funnily enough, the same problems of too light/high center of gravity). I've got no clue where they came up with probes though.

 

[Adam Lucio]

Back when Convective Addiction was around, the guys (including Skip) and I really looked in to designed a balloon based probe. We deemed it pretty impractical at the time. Image driving around in your chase vehicle with a giant balloon in the back of it the whole time. A balloon large enough to carry that kind of gear would fill your entire vehicle which comes with its own set of issues. You can always fill it up on site but now youre hauling helium tanks or whatever it is youre choosing to use.

 

[Mark Blue]

I added a link to the article in the first post per Steve's request.

 

[Rob H]

They're difficult to launch - Howie Bluestein's book goes into some detail about this. The PECAN project is using some tethersondes as part of its studies on the LLJ.

 

[Warren Faidley]

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Thanks:

W.

 

[Rob H]

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Because it's fun to build things and set goals and accomplish said goals.

 

[Dan Robinson]

They could at least verify some of the 3d modeling, (assuming the 3d modeling is of some use):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8gsosWFh-I

 

[Jeff Duda]

So why not the balloon? No, probably not a full fledged weather balloon due to the fact that the logistics of filling on location would be a huge downside; but rather a scaled down version capable of carrying pertinent instruments, cameras, and a locator. Getting the instrument headed toward its target is as simple as releasing it into the inflow. Sure, the balloon will burst when impacted by debris but at that point it is likely close enough to provide valuable data.

Radiosondes using balloons are still quite popular in current research. The MPEX project used balloons to get measurements in central Oklahoma on 31 May 2013 and also in Kansas on 28 May 2013.

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Warren, a balloon launched into the updraft of a storm will essentially trace out the trajectory of a streamline, which can provide excellent data on testing parcel theory for one thing (I believe this was done many years ago and has since been retired). It can also be used to verify trajectories computed from tornado-scale models as Dan pointed out. Keep in mind that from a general perspective, thunderstorms are extreme and rare phenomena that occur very infrequently (think, of all of the time the atmosphere has existed, and for as big as it is, how much of the volume of it was occupied by thunderstorms at a given time? How long does any one particular thunderstorm last?), so it is certainly useful to have some observational data on what's going on inside them. Since most measurements are surface based or remotely sensed, generally only the surface based portions of thunderstorms get sampled, or the remotely sensed data is of somewhat poor resolution or is inaccurate. Having in-situ data can clear up some uncertainties and perhaps lend some insight into features that remotely sensed observations cannot provide.

One major problem with launching weather balloons with instrument packages directly into the updraft region of a storm is that it is likely to be destroyed by lightning or hail or to be ejected by the turbulent flow before it can obtain any meaningful data. The other issue is logistics. Others have pointed out the problems with trying to fill a balloon and launch on location. Most balloons only ascend at around 5 m/s or so, meaning if it passes through a downdraft with a vertical velocity stronger than 5 m/s (common in most thunderstorms), it will get forced back down to the ground. Then surface objects will likely tear it apart.

 

[Warren Faidley]

They could at least verify some of the 3d modeling, (assuming the 3d modeling is of some use):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8gsosWFh-I

Yes, good point. But my understanding of research requires multiple data sets from the same storm setting, e.g., VORTEX style research with calibrated instrumentation and verification of said data.

W.

 

[Joey Ketcham]

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Thanks:

W.

There is no scientific value behind releasing a single balloon with a data package, but it's a start and if the person doing so is actually interested in the science rather than just being an amateur having fun, then they can expand and go forward from what they learned in doing those test runs, data collection and expand it into something bigger that will, in the long run, gather scientific data that can be used. A person has to start somewhere, and test it first with a single balloon before diving all in without even knowing if it'll work or collect anything of value. Start small, then go big.

 

[Shane Adams]

What about a kite with heavy gauge line?