Why Not Balloons?

[Steve Miller]

I read an article today about better understanding tornadoes by penetrating them with scientific instruments attached to $30-50k drones. The article is entitled "Drones might help explain how tornadoes form" and can be found here.

I'm really curious as to why rarely anyone considers the weather balloon as a viable way to deliver instruments near to or into a tornado. So many people concentrate on hair-brained ideas like flying helicopters and RC airplanes or shooting rockets, seemingly never able to consider that in application they will be in a supercell environment. Not only are these expensive, they are not going to fly well in the inflow.

Weighted sensors and cameras on the ground have proven successful and seem to be what the majority of chasers and/or scientists lean toward when attempting to gain usable data. The activity of placing these in the path of an approaching tornado can prove deadly though.

So why not the balloon? No, probably not a full fledged weather balloon due to the fact that the logistics of filling on location would be a huge downside; but rather a scaled down version capable of carrying pertinent instruments, cameras, and a locator. Getting the instrument headed toward its target is as simple as releasing it into the inflow. Sure, the balloon will burst when impacted by debris but at that point it is likely close enough to provide valuable data.

 

[Skip Talbot]

I've often thought about this and even designed some rigs that might do the job. I'm not sure the winds would actually allow this to be easily done though. The environmental inflow, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't go directly into the tornado but instead gets carried aloft into the updraft tower. Releasing a balloon into the tornado's inflow jet might require that you be in the RFD. This would be extremely difficult and dangerous as the rear inflow jet's "ghost train" winds can be as damaging as the tornado's. The winds also travel very low to the ground before they rapidly ascend in the corner flow region. Your balloon would likely get snagged on a tree, power line, or driven into the ground unless you were incredibly fortunate to get close enough to the back end of a tornado without any obstructions. Launching a balloon from that position would be quite challenging as I'm sure many of us are familiar with how trying to hold large, light objects in the wind is really difficult.

 

[Dan Robinson]

As crazy as it sounds, the "Twister" concept might actually have some potential in this application. Small balloons from a heavy low-to-the ground container could be automatically or remotely launched at the right time. Speaking of that, where did the Twister instrument pack idea come from? It almost seems too practical to be a purely Hollywood idea. Did they get this from the research community? Anyone know?

 

[Joey Ketcham]

I read an article today about better understanding tornadoes by penetrating them with scientific instruments attached to $30-50k drones. The article is entitled "Drones might help explain how tornadoes form" and can be found here.

I'm really curious as to why rarely anyone considers the weather balloon as a viable way to deliver instruments near to or into a tornado. So many people concentrate on hair-brained ideas like flying helicopters and RC airplanes or shooting rockets, seemingly never able to consider that in application they will be in a supercell environment. Not only are these expensive, they are not going to fly well in the inflow.

Weighted sensors and cameras on the ground have proven successful and seem to be what the majority of chasers and/or scientists lean toward when attempting to gain usable data. The activity of placing these in the path of an approaching tornado can prove deadly though.

So why not the balloon? No, probably not a full fledged weather balloon due to the fact that the logistics of filling on location would be a huge downside; but rather a scaled down version capable of carrying pertinent instruments, cameras, and a locator. Getting the instrument headed toward its target is as simple as releasing it into the inflow. Sure, the balloon will burst when impacted by debris but at that point it is likely close enough to provide valuable data.

Tyler Costantini and I toyed with this idea several years ago and discussed some ideas and did a few balloon release tests. If I recall right, I think he even put together a transmitter that attached to the balloon to send data back. I could be wrong on that least part.

 

[James Gustina]

I think the biggest issue like Skip said would be hitting the sweet spot of the tornado's RIJ and hoping the balloon doesn't get drug across a field full of crap or pulled into an obstruction by an errant burst of negatively buoyant air. It kind of reminds me of the issues that TVN had with those parachute probes which would likely be exacerbated with a big, hard to control balloon in insanely powerful winds.


Dan, I'm pretty sure they just took the idea of TOTO, which looks mighty similar and had the same general objective (and funnily enough, the same problems of too light/high center of gravity). I've got no clue where they came up with probes though.

 

[Adam Lucio]

Back when Convective Addiction was around, the guys (including Skip) and I really looked in to designed a balloon based probe. We deemed it pretty impractical at the time. Image driving around in your chase vehicle with a giant balloon in the back of it the whole time. A balloon large enough to carry that kind of gear would fill your entire vehicle which comes with its own set of issues. You can always fill it up on site but now youre hauling helium tanks or whatever it is youre choosing to use.

 

[Mark Blue]

I added a link to the article in the first post per Steve's request.

 

[Rob H]

They're difficult to launch - Howie Bluestein's book goes into some detail about this. The PECAN project is using some tethersondes as part of its studies on the LLJ.

 

[Warren Faidley]

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Thanks:

W.

 

[Rob H]

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Because it's fun to build things and set goals and accomplish said goals.

 

[Dan Robinson]

They could at least verify some of the 3d modeling, (assuming the 3d modeling is of some use):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8gsosWFh-I

 

[Jeff Duda]

So why not the balloon? No, probably not a full fledged weather balloon due to the fact that the logistics of filling on location would be a huge downside; but rather a scaled down version capable of carrying pertinent instruments, cameras, and a locator. Getting the instrument headed toward its target is as simple as releasing it into the inflow. Sure, the balloon will burst when impacted by debris but at that point it is likely close enough to provide valuable data.

Radiosondes using balloons are still quite popular in current research. The MPEX project used balloons to get measurements in central Oklahoma on 31 May 2013 and also in Kansas on 28 May 2013.

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Warren, a balloon launched into the updraft of a storm will essentially trace out the trajectory of a streamline, which can provide excellent data on testing parcel theory for one thing (I believe this was done many years ago and has since been retired). It can also be used to verify trajectories computed from tornado-scale models as Dan pointed out. Keep in mind that from a general perspective, thunderstorms are extreme and rare phenomena that occur very infrequently (think, of all of the time the atmosphere has existed, and for as big as it is, how much of the volume of it was occupied by thunderstorms at a given time? How long does any one particular thunderstorm last?), so it is certainly useful to have some observational data on what's going on inside them. Since most measurements are surface based or remotely sensed, generally only the surface based portions of thunderstorms get sampled, or the remotely sensed data is of somewhat poor resolution or is inaccurate. Having in-situ data can clear up some uncertainties and perhaps lend some insight into features that remotely sensed observations cannot provide.

One major problem with launching weather balloons with instrument packages directly into the updraft region of a storm is that it is likely to be destroyed by lightning or hail or to be ejected by the turbulent flow before it can obtain any meaningful data. The other issue is logistics. Others have pointed out the problems with trying to fill a balloon and launch on location. Most balloons only ascend at around 5 m/s or so, meaning if it passes through a downdraft with a vertical velocity stronger than 5 m/s (common in most thunderstorms), it will get forced back down to the ground. Then surface objects will likely tear it apart.

 

[Warren Faidley]

They could at least verify some of the 3d modeling, (assuming the 3d modeling is of some use):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8gsosWFh-I

Yes, good point. But my understanding of research requires multiple data sets from the same storm setting, e.g., VORTEX style research with calibrated instrumentation and verification of said data.

W.

 

[Joey Ketcham]

Could someone explain the exact scientific reasoning and value of placing a single balloon or data package in an updraft or LLJ? I see a lot of amateurs attempting this, but none have answered this specific question with any logical answer other than "gathering data," etc.

Thanks:

W.

There is no scientific value behind releasing a single balloon with a data package, but it's a start and if the person doing so is actually interested in the science rather than just being an amateur having fun, then they can expand and go forward from what they learned in doing those test runs, data collection and expand it into something bigger that will, in the long run, gather scientific data that can be used. A person has to start somewhere, and test it first with a single balloon before diving all in without even knowing if it'll work or collect anything of value. Start small, then go big.

 

[Shane Adams]

What about a kite with heavy gauge line?

 

[Steve Miller]

Benjamin Franklin already did that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stephen Levine]

If I remember correctly, in Twister, they used hundreds of metal balls released into the tornado and tracked by radar to show the circulation.
I believe a balloon is just too vulnerable to puncture due to the factors mentioned in previous posts.
However, hundreds of metal balls just might do the trick; especially if released in stages from different parts of the storm.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I think the "Twister" concept actually has some merit. Why not something like lightweight solid styrofoam as the probe casing? I'd imagine the essential electronics could be made lightweight enough that they would easily loft within a styrofoam casing, and the whole package wouldn't damage anything when it descended.

 

[Skip Talbot]

I'll go ahead and share the design Convective Addiction was working on since I'm pretty sure we're never going to get around to building this thing. If you get a grant to actually build this thing or something similar, bring me on board!

Design consisted of three GoPros, a Spot GPS satellite tracker, and a small data logger, enclosed in a small acrylic dome and flown under three 36 inch weather balloons. Thinking about it again, I'm not sure that dome is needed at all. The GoPros are fine exposed and the other components could be bagged or put in some foam.

Components:


Side:


Top:


Perspective:



We decided prefilling the balloons would be best. You've got to get close to the tornado to get the balloons in the tornado, and there's no way you're going to be able to fill a balloon standing in the RFD or under the tornado cyclone, or have the time to do that. The balloons should fit in a minivan though:







Weights/Prices (2011)

Component	Price	Weight	Lifting Capacity
GoPro Hero Naked	$260 x 3	6 oz x 3
Spot Satellite Tracker	$270	5 oz
Data Logger	$275	3 oz
Acrylic Dome	$30	8 oz
36" Balloon x 3	$14 x 3	-
45 cubic feet of Helium	$3 - $6		36 oz
Total	$1403	34 oz	36 oz

Here's the problems that make this thing really impractical though:

• You gotta get real close
  The clear air inflow east of the tornado goes into the updraft base, not the tornado
  The inflow north of the tornado might go into the wall cloud and not the tornado
  The rear inflow jet goes into the tornado, but has a downward component and is quite dangerous itself
• The balloons will pop
  Three balloons in the back of a van during a chase? Good luck with that
  Hail, debris, trees, powerlines, something is going to get in the way before you get close to the funnel
• No vertical control
  Downdrafts will send your balloon into the ground, updrafts into a featureless cloud mass before it reaches the tornado.
  You'll need the balloons to pop to get the camera probe back. They more than likely will quite quickly pop, but if they don't your expensive cameras could wind up hundreds of miles downstream.
• No stabilization
  The cameras are going to spin unless you build a rig that corrects that
  Once you get close to the tornado everything is going to be rocking and rolling.
  A gimbal might fix this, but that's lots of weight and a waterproofing nightmare, and it's $$$.

 

[Steve Miller]

Skip, bravo! This is very cool stuff. Would love someone to try this just to see what it sees from the camera(s).
Sounds like the track it will take with a simple launch into the inflow will not accomplish much for science (instrumentation placement-wise), but imagine the potential for cool pictures and/or video!

 

[Skip Talbot]

What might be an even cooler shot than into the tornado, and a lot easier to execute, is if you release the balloon NEAR but not into a stratosphere bumping huge, updraft tower. You'd have an epic shot of convection going for tens of thousands of feet, a short trip through the anvil, and then pop out on top with a huge dark blue dome above and a view of the overshooting top. Pop the balloons and send it back down.

 

[Jeff Duda]

These programs weren't run by TVN or some other group that got face time on Discovery or any other network, so you probably didn't hear about it. That doesn't mean no one else is doing it.

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-severe-weather-research-group-being-co-lead-by-cu-boulder

 

[Anders Petersson]

Hi, I was referred here by Steve Miller.
My company has developed a miniature radiosonde Windsond (http://windsond.com). Originally it was designed for hot air balloon pilots, who need a portable and reuseable system for wind measurements. It measures winds and GPS altitude, temperature, humidity and pressure... but doesn't take pictures. In a normal setting about 90% of the sondes are recovered and reused. The system should be useful in a tornado chasing scenario as the balloon is small enough to be inflated inside a vehicle. In the picture we release it through a car window. However, the sonde won't attain 5 m/s rise speed (a number mentioned previously in this thread) with a balloon of that size.


I got in contact with tornado researchers during the ISARRA meteorology conference in Norman, OK two weeks ago and hopefully they will start using Windsond. We can still offer a kit for a good price to a hobby storm chaser to try it out in this setting.