VORTEX2

[IAN GIAMMANCO]

I believe the FAA required additional paperwork that was not completed in time for there to be any participation by the UAV crews during the '09 edition of VORTEX 2. Although they did do some logistics testing for i think was about a week during the project. It is my understanding that they hope to be operational next year in the counties that were previously designated. Maybe someone else with more info from that side of things can chime in.

 

[Steve Worthington]

Overall I was able to avoid vortex 2 for a good deal of the season, though I did see a select few STOOPID moves by members of Vortex 2 crew, sadly including the Bone Head of the Year move... Though overall I was somewhat impressed with how out of the way they seemed to be, seemed they were busy enough and spread out enough with their "tasks" that all went smoothly, excluding the one idiot and his extremely dangerous Bone Head of The Year move, I'd say they were Great and give props to vortex 2 members for sharing the road...

I toped a hill on a back road in Mo and to my surprise there was a V2 van stopped in the middle of the little country road at the bottom of the hill. I slammed on the brakes as they took off then turned on to a dirt road like a mad man. I just shook my head and kept going. It was like they were trying to hide...lol

Another one was in eastern Kansas where 3 white full size vans were acting like I was following them and shot off a dirt road to no where...lol I came off a dirt road when I pulled in behind em so they must have been thinking I was like a wildcat in the woods waiting for em ...rotflmao
When they shot off we were like where in the hell are they going as my map showed that road to go no where???
There again, I just kept on my way.

This must be what they meant by "Radically STOOPID things"
V2 was never a bother to us as they always seem to be in the wrong places or going the wrong way.

The V2 guy`s we talked with seem to be pretty cool and most of em were professional as well.

Maybe next year they will follow the chasers to the tornados

 

[Skip Talbot]

Maybe next year they will follow the chasers to the tornados

Once again, you have to keep in mind that their motives are very different from ours. They are not out to get the best picture of a tornado, they are trying to sample the storm from many different points. I've seen them driving up and down the same road doing laps on the back edge of a storm, which seems goofy, until you realize what their motives are.

As far as stupid driving is concerned, its the most dangerous aspect of storm chasing, but its also something that can't be avoided and every chaser must learn to deal with it. There will always be erratic driving and vehicles stopped in weird places when there is a supercell and chaser congestion. For the most part, the DOW trucks just don't have the room to pull all the way off the road, and other vehicles are going to be making sudden stops to get data. Luckily I've been able to easily pass such occurances, and I'm sure we'll see it again next year. The best thing you can do is drive defensively and minimize your own impact.

 

[Stephen Barabas]

Thanks for the information. I haven't read too much into VORTEX 2, so I'm not fully aware of ALL of the equipment that had or were planning on using.

 

[Ryan McGinnis]

Was going through the V2 picture archive looking for something to post to the blog today, and I came across this:

This is what happens when an expensive Young Marine model anemometer gets its propeller and tail ripped off by a tornado while still attached to a tornado tank full of chasers with a sense of humor.

 

[Rejean Boudreau]

Sorry Jacob. I removed my comments to prevent re-escalation.

But i still think what i said.

 

[Jacob Ferden]

Why is it that every single time we all manage to calm down on one of these types of threads, somebody has to attempt to stir things up again? I'm not even going to respond to something that could have been addressed a month ago.

 

[Steve Worthington]

I have been doing some research on Vortex and V2 and from what I see is two different chaser styles between the two groups.
From what I have seen is the leader of Vortex ( Erik Rasmussen ) bagged more storms and seems to have been in the right places while the leader of V2 was like watching another episode of storm chasers. I know this was a bad season but is Josh putting to much trust in sicence and not using any instinct? I mean gosh, I`m a nobody but even I picked the right spot on 5-13-09 while V2 was in western Okla behind the storm. I know before anyone says it, They are not looking for the same things as some of us are but if you know theres gonna be a tornado in your area why not go after it and get some data? Everything I looked at that day told me where to go and I`m lost as V2 has way more resources then I do or the other 4 chasers that were there along the same area. I mean come on, it was a tail end charlie and thats where you`ll get the action most of the time.
Like I said I`m not bashing V2 by no means, I`m just trying to learn from others and it just keeps poping in my mind "WHY" they had so many chances and misses many tornados with all the resources at their finger tips? Was this season of V2 about cells that dont produce and next season will be about cells that do?

 

[Jeff Snyder]

Steve,

There was a LOT of consensus forecasting during V2. There was a different researcher / forecaster in the "lead" every few days (i.e. I think each steering committee member served as a "mission scientist" for several days at a time), but the target was largely determined after discussion during each morning meeting. The project had access to some of the best forecasters in the field, and I think the group did relatively well considering the lemon of a season (at least from May 10 - June 13). There is always some element of uncertainty in forecasting, and some of chasing will come down to luck, as I'm sure you know as a chaser. Some in-field decisions were made by the FC (in coordination with the VOC and others), and I think they did a fantastic job making critical, very high-pressure decisions (the weight of the project is on your shoulders -- that's some pressure!). Given the marginal setups we saw in May, given that many of those who had a say in the targets each day are some of the best in the country / world, and given the tremendous amount of resources (money and personnel) involved in a project that may not be funded again for a very long time in the future, you can bet that everyone did everything they could to get the project in the right spots at the right time. Honestly, as a V2 participant, I think the leaders did a fantastic job, by and large. Of course, there are going to be differences amongst forecasters (i.e. times when the official V2 target and reasoning was at odds with my personal forecast), but that's expected given the nature of severe storms forecasting and chase strategy.

There are some additional hindrances that complicate the chase strategy for a group this large compared to how many of us chase... For example, the V2 armada is huge, and it's very difficult to just stop, turn around, and target a different storm. In other words, there is a lot of inertia that makes it difficult to change storms or target areas as quickly or frequently as many of us who are out there by ourselves do.

Regardless, I don't remember many having "so many chances and misses many tornados". As noted before, May was horrendous by historical standards, particularly after May 10th (when the project started) and in the V2 domain. Fortunately, June came back to life in the Plains and gave us at least a couple of great datasets (tornadic supercell on 6/5/09 and intense, non-tornadic supercell on 6/7/09). In the end, we're all at the mercy of what the environment gives us. Fortunately, there aren't too many 2-year stretches that see bad Mays, so next year should be better. FWIW, from what I've heard and know, the armada will be in the field one week longer next year (6 weeks; May 1st - June 12?), which should give us more opportunities to intercept tornadic supercells.

 

[Patrick Marsh]

I have been doing some research on Vortex and V2 and from what I see is two different chaser styles between the two groups.
From what I have seen is the leader of Vortex bagged more storms and seems to have been in the right places while the leader of V2 was like watching another episode of storm chasers. I know this was a bad season but is Josh putting to much trust in sicence and not using any instinct?

There are a lot of assumptions in this statement. First and foremost, that Josh was calling the shots. Josh was not in the Field Command vehicle and is only 1 of 8 members on the steering committee. Whatever your opinion of Josh, placing the success or failure of V2's intercepts on his shoulders' is unfair to both him and all the others who have worked hard on the project.

I mean gosh, I`m a nobody but even I picked the right spot on 5-13-09 while V2 was in western Okla behind the storm. I know before anyone says it, They are not looking for the same things as some of us are but if you know theres gonna be a tornado in your area why not go after it and get some data? Everything I looked at that day told me where to go and I`m lost as V2 has way more resources then I do or the other 4 chasers that were there along the same area. I mean come on, it was a tail end charlie and thats where you`ll get the action most of the time.

Actually, the storm that V2 picked on this day, did end up producing an EF2 tornado. However, it was after dark and V2's operating protocols prohibits most teams from operating after dark.

In the case of 2 days later (5-15-09), the problem was not that V2 "picked the wrong storm" it was that the V2 armada is too big and too slow to have gotten to the TX panhandle. Trust me, there were discussions during the morning briefing's about the TX Panhandle. I should know, I was in on every forecast briefing. However, the armada is required to stay together and operate on the same storm, so that means the armada can only move as fast as its slowest members. There were several pieces of equipment that couldn't have made the storms in the TX Panhandle, and thus, that was immediately ruled out as a potential target.

Like I said I`m not bashing V2 by no means, I`m just trying to learn from others and it just keeps poping in my mind "WHY" they had so many chances and misses many tornados with all the resources at their finger tips? Was this season of V2 about cells that dont produce and next season will be about cells that do?

V2 wants to collect a very robust dataset. This includes both tornadic and non-tornadic thunderstorms. Year 1 was very successful considering the meteorological, logistical, and communication issues that were overcome. The armada collected data on thunderstorms that developed in regions outside the general thunder line, a tornado in WY, multiple thunderstorm interactions, an elevated supercell that was rotating very intensely, and multiple supercells that were TOR warned but never produced. Just because only 1 tornado was intercepted doesn't mean a lot of valuable data was not collected. It just means we only got 1 tornado.

The original VORTEX had a pretty bad first year...only collecting 1 or 2 tornadoes. It wasn't until the last few weeks of the second year that things really turned around for them.

 

[Steve Worthington]

Thanks Guy`s
I guess I didn't take in to account that it`s so much harder to change targets when you have so many on one cell.
I`m use to; "Well this one`s not gonna do it so lets move over 60 miles to our west"...lol
I never thought about how hard it would be to get a team as large as V2 moved to another cell.
See I`m learning something here

I also didn't know there wasn't just one Field Commander on V2
I wasn't putting any blame on Josh by any means, it may seem I was but I wasn't meaning too!
I couldn't even think of how hard it has to be for chasers to join a group like V2 and be told this is where you go. That's gotta be hard when your use to doing your own thing.
I could see it now:
"But, but, but there's, but, please, come on, I know I can bag one over to our east just 15 miles from here, please, please" That's how I would be anyway.....lol

Anyway thanks guy`s that clears up a bunch of clutter that been playing circles in my mind.

 

[Shane Adams]

I don't understand why the VORTEX2 project must take its 30 days on the calendar as a preset, unbreakable schedule. 30 days' worth of funding is what it is, regardless of when you take those days. IMO it was ridiculous to make them sit through a 3-week ridge burning up days when they could've just picked and chose the days to chase on when_there_was_chaseable_weather.

Be a shame if the same system (same schedule of days) is used again in 2010, and the biggest days are April 26-May 3. IMO, if you're gonna fund research, then let the researchers decide when they need to chase.....since they're kinda the experts.

 

[Steve Worthington]

Shane makes a very valuable point here.
I know we took off many days during the V2 period this season because of the death ridge setting in.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to send everyone back home for a while then all the "living on the road expenses"?
We all know that any season can be repeated and it can repeat back to back.
Man that would truly suck for all of us!

 

[Jeff Snyder]

Shane,

Part of the problem is that there are a LOT of personnel that are not based in the V2 domain. Sure, SOME of the Norman-based (OU, NSSL, etc.), Texas Tech, Nebraska, and Colorado folks could go home during extended "downtimes", but that still leaves a lot of Penn State, Michigan, and other folks who live well-removed from the Plains. These folks would either have to stay in hotels anyway (most likely scenario), or spend the money on airfare or marathon drives to get home. In addition, there are still always "surprise" days every year; I think the fear from the top of the V2 leadership chain is/was that such a surprise day would be missed if everyone dispersed to take a 3-4 day stretch at "home". This past year, some folks did take some "home time" during extended inactivity periods (i.e. parts of May), so there was some money saved. In addition, some instruments have to be scheduled for use well ahead of time, and there are other field projects that need to use the instruments before and after the allotted V2 period.

You can bet that many V2 folks would like to be more flexible, but the reality of the situation (scheduling and availability of instruments and personnel, etc.) makes it very difficult to have this type of flexibility. The best that can be done is to schedule the operations period during the climatological max in "chaseable" tornadic supercells (i.e. in the Plains where the terrain tends to be better than in the southeastern U.S., as a compromise between the typically faster-moving supercells in April and the typically weaker shear after mid-June, etc.).

 

[Steve Worthington]

Jeff
Do you have any info on "VORTEX-99" back in 1998-99
I cant seem to find much on that project.

I`m guessing they weren't a large group?
Who was heading up the project and so on?

I know they were on the Chickasha, Moore and Del City tornado but thats about it.