Spotter nets: how can chasers help?

[TJ Whitt]

I do know that in some cases, some ARES/RACES nets will not accept any check-ins or routine traffic (small hail or rain reports) if the net is in a higher condition (significant severe weather events). I know it's hard for chasers to know exactly what is going on during a net if they are traveling from county to county. This is why the 'Always listen" rule is paramount. Listen for a few minutes to see what the net condition is. If it is in a lower net condition, then see if you can check in. If it is in a higher net condition, then do not transmit unless you have a life or death emergency. If you do not hear any information concerning the type of net or the net conditions, if there is a few minutes of silence, key up, give your callsign, that you are a trained spotter, and ask what the net condition is. It's really hard to know if the nets from place to place are relaxed enough to allow hams that are not from that area to make reports. I can tell you that Collin County TX ARES nets are open to any ham to make a report. The Dallas County TX RACES net is strictly for Dallas County RACES members only but they do often let non-members make reports especially if there is significant severe weather occurring.

It would be nice if spotters or chasers from around the US, could list their local ARES/RACES/Skywarn net information such as type of net, frequency, offset, PL tone, whether or not they accept check-ins and reports from non-local hams

 

[Randy Jennings]

Besides being a chaser, I’m active in an ARES group and a RACES group, so here are my thoughts:

Where are the closed nets located?

That depends on the definition of “closed net”. I’ve only heard of one net that I would say was fully closed. The start of the Wichita County TX net the other day said “if you are not an accepted Wichita County ARES member, we do not what you to check-in, we do not want your reports”. That is as closed as it gets. There are probably others I haven’t encountered. Dallas County TX RACES only takes routine reports from Dallas area RACES appointees, but they do take reports from any licensed amateur radio operator if it is an “imminent threat to life or property.” I’d call that semi-closed. It is important to remember that just because a group is RACES doesn’t mean they operate every Skywarn net as a RACES net. Many of the groups wear both RACES and ARES hats. Rockwall County TX and Tarrant County TX are RACES groups that often do Skywarn nets as ARES nets or “open” nets. Since there are very few fully closed nets, and since some groups are semi-closed one net and open the next net, I’m not sure compiling a list would be helpful.


Are there uniform rules for checking in and reporting, or are they different from place to place?

They are different, but the vast majority of them have a lot of similarities. It is important to understand that the reason most nets do check-ins is so the net controller will know what resources they have. Some net controllers use this to position the spotters (Wichita County TX and Denton County TX are examples). Others do it so they can safely account for all their spotters, much like police and fire departments do a radio roll call several times a shift or incident. Check-ins also allows the net controller to know where they don’t have coverage; no reports could mean nothing is happening or it could mean no one is looking.

As a chaser, I almost never check-in to a net. Checking-in means you are an available resource for that net controller. You go where they ask you to go, you stay when they say stay, and you don’t check-out in the middle of the action just because something better is happening one county over. I’ve never encountered a net that required you to be checked-in before you make a report. If I’m chasing and a net controller is asking for spotters in a certain area and not getting responses, I will check-in. Remember that most nets only take check-ins before the weather gets bad in their county. Some nets don’t take check-ins on Skywarn nets (for example, Dallas County TX RACES doesn’t do check-ins in Skywarn nets – even for Dallas area RACES appointees).

As for reporting, there are a couple of general guidelines. First - listen, listen, listen. Make sure you understand how the net is operating and what their style is so you can match it. Make sure you meet the minimum reporting criteria (i.e. don’t report ½ inch hail if 1 inch is the minimum reporting criteria). Second – think before you transmit. Don’t key up and start talking then think about what you want to say. Third – be brief and accurate. When making a report, give your call sign, say nothing else (unless the controller has given instructions otherwise), and wait for a response before you make your report. If the net controller hasn’t given instructions for how to make reports or there isn’t an obvious pattern, I recommend you use the HAND style – Have, At, Need, Details – and close with your call sign. You probably don’t need to use the “Need” part and details should be minimal. An example of this would be “rotating wall cloud approx 1 mile west of my location at Dallas North Tollway and Main Street in Frisco, 20 mph measured inflow, KF5LKL”. When chasing, I don’t make reports unless I am reporting something significant and/or new (for example, if there is already a severe thunderstorm warning and there have been multiple hail reports around me, I don’t feel the need to report it again for the same size hail).


What are the implications of a chaser selling video or a stream from a storm?

As others have noted, using amateur radio to transmit reports to a Skywarn net while filming video for sell isn’t a problem on the surface. There is a thin line you need to watch out for. You can’t use amateur radio to coordinate your business activities. For example, if you ran a chase company with 2 vans and you used amateur radio to coordinate between the vans, you likely are violating FCC rules, much like a taxi service using it for dispatch would be. As others noted, receiving information over amateur radio and then making business decisions is allowable. As chasers we need to be careful here. It would be very easy for one of the chaser haters to file a FCC complaint. Make sure you are on the right side of that thin line.

Other Thoughts

Several folks have discussed Skywarn frequency lists in this and other threads. I started to work on a database during the off season. I put it on the shelf for the chase season. I guess I should dust it off. I hadn’t done a lot of the data collection, but I had done a lot of the design and planning. I will try to get back onto and post something on Stormtrack.

One other note, several folks have used the term “BREAK” and “BREAK,BREAK”. At least in my area, a single “BREAK” is sometimes used when someone is making a long winded transmission and needs to pause, let off the push-to-talk, and let the repeater reset before it times out. You shouldn’t have long winded transmissions in a Skywarn net. A double “BREAK,BREAK” is used to indicate that you have an emergency and the net needs to stand by and yield to you. There are a lot of nets where you better be bleeding when you use “BREAK,BREAK” or the net controller will be upset with you. Since Skywarn nets are for the purpose of spotting, making a spotter report is not considered an emergency on these nets. Now if you can’t get in the net to make a tornado report because everyone is still checking-in or reporting pea sized hail, by all means use “BREAK,BREAK”. Just make sure what you have to say is really urgent.

 

[Matt Tottle]

Just a quick addition since Daniel mentioned it.. Most repeaters - I know this is true on K-Link but can't vouch for other systems - have a courtesy tone set. If you don't hear the courtesy tone and/or a repeater tail when you un-key, then it's a safe assumption that your transmission was not received.

It's hard to hear at the beginning because there was a simplex conversation going on at the same time on 550 but that stops after about 30 seconds. After each transmission you hear the courtesy beep, then a second of silence and blip of static - that's the "tail". The person transmitting can hear that too when they un-key. That's your confirmation that the repeater heard you.

 

[SCombs]

Really enjoying this thread. Lots of good information being exchanged. Nothing but good can come from this. And the real winners will be the safety of the public.

 

[Jay Farlow]

Just a quick addition since Daniel mentioned it.. Most repeaters - I know this is true on K-Link but can't vouch for other systems - have a courtesy tone set. If you don't hear the courtesy tone and/or a repeater tail when you un-key, then it's a safe assumption that your transmission was not received.

In addition, our repeater changes its courtesy tones during various conditions. For example if a WW is in effect, it change from a simple "beep" to a Morse code "W" (dih-dah-dah). When a directed net is underway, it changes to a Morse code "N" (dah-dit). Periodic synthesized voice tail messages also announce either "weather watch" or "weather net." That's just one repeater in one place, but I thought you might find this practice of interest.

 

[Jay Farlow]

One other note, several folks have used the term “BREAK” and “BREAK,BREAK”. At least in my area, a single “BREAK” is sometimes used when someone is making a long winded transmission and needs to pause, let off the push-to-talk, and let the repeater reset before it times out. You shouldn’t have long winded transmissions in a Skywarn net. A double “BREAK,BREAK” is used to indicate that you have an emergency and the net needs to stand by and yield to you. There are a lot of nets where you better be bleeding when you use “BREAK,BREAK” or the net controller will be upset with you. Since Skywarn nets are for the purpose of spotting, making a spotter report is not considered an emergency on these nets. Now if you can’t get in the net to make a tornado report because everyone is still checking-in or reporting pea sized hail, by all means use “BREAK,BREAK”. Just make sure what you have to say is really urgent.

Randy is correct that "break break," etc. is a fairly common practice in ham radio. I don't use it.

If I have an emergency (e.g. I come across a car accident with life-threatening injuries), the way I break in is "W9LW, emergency." This a.) identifies myself and b.) unambiguously indicates why I'm breaking in. Likewise, If I observe a tornado, I use "W9LW, tornado" and await acknowledgement before I transmit the details. This plain-language approach makes sense to me and I believe it will be well understood everywhere, even places where it is not common practice.

 

[Jay Farlow]

It would be nice if spotters or chasers from around the US, could list their local ARES/RACES/Skywarn net information such as type of net, frequency, offset, PL tone, whether or not they accept check-ins and reports from non-local hams

IMO SKYWARN Quadrant Two Net
Repeater: 146.88 MHz, no tone required
Back-up Repeater: 146.76 MHz, no tone required but 141.3Hz tone optional
Repeater location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Area served: IMO SKYWARN quadrant two (essentially the southeastern quadrant of the IWX CWA)
Two operational modes: Standby mode and Directed Net mode
Standby mode: A WW is in effect, but little or no severe wx is yet in the area, and few spotter reports are yet expected. A net control station (NCS) monitors the frequency to handle any reports that come in and to remind stations on frequency what's going on. The NCS might accept check-ins, to learn who is on the air. All stations are welcome to use the repeater normally but are requested to keep transmissions short and leave large gaps between transmissions to facilitate interruptions by spotter reports. The repeater's courtesy tone becomes a Morse code "W." The repeater controller's sythesized voice periodically announces, "weather watch."
Directed net mode: A tornado warning has been issued, or the volume of spotter reports has gotten high enough that more control over the frequency is required. All stations are requested to obtain NCS acknowledgement before transmitting any report, by transmitting a call sign once and one or two words describing the report (e.g. "W9LW, wall cloud"). This enables the NCS to prioritize when multiple stations have near-simultaneous reports. Stations are requested to stay off the air unless they have something to report that meets certain criteria (tornado, funnel cloud, wall cloud, wind damage, hail of any size, flooding, or any emergency that threatens life or property). To keep the frequency clear for high priority spotter reports, the net does not except general check-ins during directed net mode. Upon acknowledgement, the spotter transmits his report directly to the ham at the WFO (if so staffed), otherwise, the NCS or his designee takes the report and enters it into NWSChat. With regard to non-weather emergencies, we encourage hams who are equipped with mobile phones to call 911 directly, vs. asking someone on the net to call 911 for them. When directed net mode is no longer needed, the NCS ends it and then requests check-ins, so he'll know who all was on frequency during the net but didn't have anything to report.

To avoid potential liability, our net does not suggest to spotters where they should go. Before a directed net begins, our spotters often chat with each other on the repeater, to announce where they plan to be, which helps them avoid congregating in one location.

 

[Jay Farlow]

On the other end, I'm wondering if there would be a way to centralize the vetting of chasers so that the nets know in advance who's who. Maybe something like a directory or database where you simply enter a callsign and get a yes/no in terms of spotter training. Or, maybe a central agency could give a chaser a "seal of approval" (for example, do a "background check" of sorts, look at their past history, chasing experience, etc) and have that on file.

Dan, in the IWX CWA, spotters are not even vetted. If, for example, a person calls the WFO on the phone to make a report and identifies himself as a trained spotter, the WFO takes his word for it. They don't have time to look the person up. I don't even know who all on frequency has attended spotter training, except for the ones I remember seeing at the last session I attended. The WFO does not share its lists with our net controllers, so we also take a spotter's word for it. That's why our net controllers don't make any attempt to filter reports before they go to the WFO (except in the case of stuff we know the WFO doesn't care about, like lightning).

We let the WFO do the same thing with our reports that it does with telephone and social media reports: Compare the report to radar data and atmospheric conditions to decide if it's valid. Not being meteorologists, our net controllers lack the knowledge and skill to make such judgements.

 

[Jay Farlow]

... opportunities for them to "chat up the locals", etc ahead of time can be quite limited or non-existent ... "when could such 'chat up the locals' conversations be carried out?" ... FWIW, I would think that it would be more realistic/practical for chasers who do spotting duties & mobile spotters to monitor the motion of the storm they are on, anticipate what county they will be reporting to next, and at some point check-in with that county's net controller (so he/she can introduce him/herself, ensure the net controller knows that the he/she is a trained spotter, and advise the net controller of his/her availability to assist.) Does this not make sense?

Derek, this is why I qualified that advice with the words, "whenever possible." It won't always be possible, but it's a good idea when it is, for example, when you're in one place for a while, waiting for storms to fire and not doing much else. Does that ever happen? If so, that would be a good time to "chat up the locals," even if you might leave their jurisdiction before you have anything to report. And by the way, such informal chats, if handled well, could go a long way toward improving perceptions of "mobile spotters."

If a net is already on going by the time you have an opportunity to check in, my other advice stands. Listen for as long a possible to get a feel for net procedures. But if you really need to make an immediate report, my opinion of the best practice is to make your first transmission very short, for example, just your call sign, or perhaps your call sign and one or two additional words that unambiguously communicate why are you are calling. For example, "W9LW, emergency" or "W9LW tornado." If you don't have a report to make, just transmit your call sign once, wait for acknowledgement and then introduce yourself ... unless you've determined by listening that the net is currently accepting check-ins only from stations that have reports to make. In that case, it's best to remain off the air until you have a report and let your report be your first check-in. The exchange might then go something like this:

Me: W9LW, funnel cloud.
NCS: W9LW, go ahead.
Me: W9LW, trained spotter, 4:21 p.m., funnel cloud, no debris visible, two miles west of Sometown."

The rest of the exchange would involve answering any questions the NCS or WFO has, etc. Notice the brevity. During a net it's better than saying, "Hi, this is Jay, W9LW, I'm a trained spotter from northeastern Indiana. I'm visiting the area and thought you'd want to know ...."

 

[Jordan Henion]

The entire line of thinking behind the Wichita Co ARES/SKYWARN incident is very confusing, and leads me to believe the Wichita Co group is not "up with the times". The ARES/RACES groups are in the habit of conducting closed nets. We have to think about their true mission. The ARES/RACES groups were created as a right-hand to Emergency Management officials in times of disaster. Most of the ARES/RACES groups I know of only started storm spotting activities withing the past 15-20 years, although RACES was formed in 1952 (not sure about ARES, sometime thereafter). Since these groups were formed to be utilized during disasters, it made sense to have policies and guidelines formed around closed nets. You wouldn't want Jim-Bob on the frequency asking what is going on while search and rescue efforts are being organized. However, I think this line of thinking was drilled into their minds as the proper procedure for each and every event for which they activate. That might be part of their procedure, but it doesn't meet common sense.

The SKYWARN program is a platform for the NWS to receive severe weather reports. It isn't a club or an organization where you need to be a card-carrying member of to participate. If you are a spotter or a chaser, you should be able to submit your report via Amateur Radio, telephone, spotter network, or Twitter. The simple fact that the NWS is fielding reports via Twitter from the public is proof that they are interested in receiving more reports, not less. I have instructed my Net Controllers that we are to pass along any severe weather report we receive, and we are not to filter reports. We welcome any and all storm chasers to join our nets on the K-Link and Kan-Okla repeater systems to submit reports: GRLevelx Placefile http://skywarn.henion.net/repeaters.txt updated regularly.

In my opinion, as a SKYWARN coordinator, what happened in Wichita County shouldn't have happened. No Amateur Radio group should be in the practice of filtering or blocking avenues for passing potentially life saving ground truth information. Whether or not they had the right to close the net has nothing to do with it; It is against good amateur practice.

P.S.- Take http://www.w9tec.com/chaseradio/ with a grain of salt, most of the information for Kansas is out-of-date. I personally audit/edit the GRLevelX placefile mentioned above, but only include repeaters that my spotters frequent in our region. I have decided not to expand it's coverage past that point since auditing the file has to be done manually line-by-line and is just short of a nightmare. For other areas, I recommend www.RepeaterBook.com since the information is crowd-sourced and approved by local admins.

Jordan Henion, K0JWH
SKYWARN Coordinator for Wichita, KS NWS

 

[ScottCurry]

If we get a database put together and allowed crowd sourced updates, we should be able to create a fairly accurate database quickly. I could also write a script to auto-generate a GRLevelx placefile so that we could have information beyond Kansas. Great work with the K-Link placefile BTW; I'll be using that as a start. Since I won't be chasing this season (unless an awesome setup occurs near my house on a Saturday), I'll have time to create this. I just need to know if you guys think it's worth my time to code this, and what information you feel would be important to include.

 

[Stephan M Ellis]

Gentlemen,

I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. I should say that my opinions are my own, but I think the other guys involved would agree with me. I am involved with the LIRA group down in the Lawton, OK area, my callsign is KG5ICZ. I'd like to tell you that we welcome reports from anyone who's got eyes on the storm and the ability to report it. If you're report makes sense, we'll get it to the TV station and the NWS, no problem. Please feel free to check into our nets if you're in the area. We like the check in process because it gives us an idea of who's out and about, plus it's a good way to start building relationships. We also like location updates, within reason of course. If there is a tornado ongoing and you can't see it, we're not really concerned with where you are, if that makes sense. But in general, knowing where someone is in relation to a particular storm is helpful should you provide a report.

One thing I have been doing for the past couple of months is trying to research some of the bigger names in the chaser community, so that I will recognize them if they come through our area and make reports. Rather than rely on some kind of vetting process, I've chosen to do that as much as possible on my own. The great thing about the chaser community is that most of you guys put your stuff out there. It makes it pretty easy for a guy like me to get an idea of who's out there making good reports on a consistent basis.

Just for information about our link system, it overlaps somewhat with the SWIRA link, but we're more focused on the SW ok and the KSWO viewing area. There are four machines in the system:

442.525 +5 PL 123 Lawton, OK
442.200 +5 PL 123 Grandfield, OK
444.450 +5 PL 123 Cement, OK
443.300 +5 PL 123 Hedrick, OK (on top of Navajo Mtn.)

If the link system should fail, we have the machine on the Comanche Cty tower near the Lake:
444.075 +5 PL 123

You can read more about it a http://www.wx5law.org

We do a weekly rag chew on Tuesdays at 7:45PM, so if you're around, jump in! We'd be glad to have you.

The Grandfield machine has antenna problems right now, but it usually can reach into Wichita Falls area in Texas. We'd be more than happy to take reports from that area (I'm talking to you Daniel Shaw), the last round of storms that resulted in the article everyone is talking about, NWS asked if anyone had eyes on the storms down there.

We do have severe reporting criteria just like anyone else, but I suspect most people on these forums understand what the NWS is looking for in most situations. Please do check in with us if you're in the area. My family's safety is important to me and I'll take all the information I can get.

I hope to work with some of you soon. Good Luck!

 

[Derek S Baker]

On the other end, I'm wondering if there would be a way to centralize the vetting of chasers so that the nets know in advance who's who. Maybe something like a directory or database where you simply enter a callsign and get a yes/no in terms of spotter training. Or, maybe a central agency could give a chaser a "seal of approval" (for example, do a "background check" of sorts, look at their past history, chasing experience, etc) and have that on file.

In the internet age, it seems like some kind of system could be developed that net controllers could use to see who is in their area and whether or not that person is known and trustworthy. Spotter Network already does this for the most part, but the vetting process there may not be as rigorous as some nets might want.

Great ideas Dan! What would really be efficient is if the SN icon for a particular spotter/mobile spotter/chaser was labelled/coloured in a way that reveals level of experience, "rating", or other key indicator. That way a net controller and/or NWS met could see what they need to see while still focused on the radar/road map,

 

[Derek S Baker]

The entire line of thinking behind the Wichita Co ARES/SKYWARN incident is very confusing, and leads me to believe the Wichita Co group is not "up with the times". The ARES/RACES groups are in the habit of conducting closed nets. We have to think about their true mission. The ARES/RACES groups were created as a right-hand to Emergency Management officials in times of disaster. Most of the ARES/RACES groups I know of only started storm spotting activities withing the past 15-20 years, although RACES was formed in 1952 (not sure about ARES, sometime thereafter). Since these groups were formed to be utilized during disasters, it made sense to have policies and guidelines formed around closed nets. You wouldn't want Jim-Bob on the frequency asking what is going on while search and rescue efforts are being organized. However, I think this line of thinking was drilled into their minds as the proper procedure for each and every event for which they activate. That might be part of their procedure, but it doesn't meet common sense.

The SKYWARN program is a platform for the NWS to receive severe weather reports. It isn't a club or an organization where you need to be a card-carrying member of to participate. If you are a spotter or a chaser, you should be able to submit your report via Amateur Radio, telephone, spotter network, or Twitter. The simple fact that the NWS is fielding reports via Twitter from the public is proof that they are interested in receiving more reports, not less. I have instructed my Net Controllers that we are to pass along any severe weather report we receive, and we are not to filter reports. We welcome any and all storm chasers to join our nets on the K-Link and Kan-Okla repeater systems to submit reports: GRLevelx Placefile http://skywarn.henion.net/repeaters.txt updated regularly.

In my opinion, as a SKYWARN coordinator, what happened in Wichita County shouldn't have happened. No Amateur Radio group should be in the practice of filtering or blocking avenues for passing potentially life saving ground truth information. Whether or not they had the right to close the net has nothing to do with it; It is against good amateur practice.

P.S.- Take http://www.w9tec.com/chaseradio/ with a grain of salt, most of the information for Kansas is out-of-date. I personally audit/edit the GRLevelX placefile mentioned above, but only include repeaters that my spotters frequent in our region. I have decided not to expand it's coverage past that point since auditing the file has to be done manually line-by-line and is just short of a nightmare. For other areas, I recommend www.RepeaterBook.com since the information is crowd-sourced and approved by local admins.

Jordan Henion, K0JWH
SKYWARN Coordinator for Wichita, KS NWS

Well said Jordan! All excellent points! IMHO, when it comes down to the crunch, if a policy cannot be justified with direct reference to public safety, it needs to be re-examined & questioned.

 

[Derek S Baker]

Derek, this is why I qualified that advice with the words, "whenever possible." It won't always be possible, but it's a good idea when it is, for example, when you're in one place for a while, waiting for storms to fire and not doing much else. Does that ever happen? If so, that would be a good time to "chat up the locals," even if you might leave their jurisdiction before you have anything to report. And by the way, such informal chats, if handled well, could go a long way toward improving perceptions of "mobile spotters."

If a net is already on going by the time you have an opportunity to check in, my other advice stands. Listen for as long a possible to get a feel for net procedures. But if you really need to make an immediate report, my opinion of the best practice is to make your first transmission very short, for example, just your call sign, or perhaps your call sign and one or two additional words that unambiguously communicate why are you are calling. For example, "W9LW, emergency" or "W9LW tornado." If you don't have a report to make, just transmit your call sign once, wait for acknowledgement and then introduce yourself ... unless you've determined by listening that the net is currently accepting check-ins only from stations that have reports to make. In that case, it's best to remain off the air until you have a report and let your report be your first check-in. The exchange might then go something like this:

Me: W9LW, funnel cloud.
NCS: W9LW, go ahead.
Me: W9LW, trained spotter, 4:21 p.m., funnel cloud, no debris visible, two miles west of Sometown."

The rest of the exchange would involve answering any questions the NCS or WFO has, etc. Notice the brevity. During a net it's better than saying, "Hi, this is Jay, W9LW, I'm a trained spotter from northeastern Indiana. I'm visiting the area and thought you'd want to know ...."

Thank you Jay! All good 'food for thought' & much appreciated!