Priorities people....

[Danny Neal]

FWIW the met. in question replied in my facebook thread about it.... he said....

Great writeup Danny, I hope you didn't feel like you were lumped into that group. @Steve, there was no one else on the storm that reported it to our office. We only learned of the actual TOR when the dust had cleared and damage was reporte...d. We weren't getting any reports of TORs, so our radar operator was getting a little worries that he was trigger happy and was about to stop putting out TORs. Luckily he didn't, but it would have been nice to hear about in realtime...for our sake and letting the public know that yes...there is a tornado out there and not just Mr. Doppler seeing it. Whoops, wasn't done...meant to write more..stupid enter. ANYways, this was just our local incident and I'm sure its happened a bunch of times before. We are (and I have) been very appreciative of what media we have thanks to these and oth...er chasers, but I care much more about getting word out that a TOR is coming when people's lives are on the line compared to entertaining people in a spotter session. Our WCM contacted the rep from the chasing crew to ask why they didn't call us and the response was, "They know they should have called." So, like Danny writes...you have no idea how vital those realtime reports of TORs are for us and a HUGE thank you to those that do report them.

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...d=57382434896#!/DNeal14/posts/113748798708309

 

[Joshua Nall]

The whole point of this blog was to remember why we are out there and to repeat the Mapleton/Atoka County scene, not the Arkdale one. Please people... remember why we are really out here. Please pick up the phone or submit that report!

I just wanted to address the "why we are out there" comment. I'm not out there to assist with the warning process. And if most were honest with themselves, they would admit its not "why" they are out their either. It is something they do on the side. And please notice I said MOST. Maybe there are those whose main purpose for pursuing severe weather is warning the public. My purpose is to do something I love to do... being out on the raod, BY MYSELF photographing severe weather. Now if I see someone in need or can help someone along the way, I do it, I love doing that. I try to live by "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...

But honestly, I would not expect a person that is out to experience and photograph severe weather, to make reports or for that matter drive into town with the intent of helping in disaster relief. I certainly wouldn't expect him to be trained in CPR and carry fancy gear and try to revive me...or drive into my town and "clear houses" after a tornado struck. I wouldn't expect him to call in reports. There just seems to be a lot of pressure here lately to the point I'm getting bogged down in thinking about all of this instead of just enjoying my trips. Having said that, I always stop when I see a car in the ditch or someone in need. Just do what you would have others do for you, that's it.

 

[Jason Foster]

Years ago many chasers mentality was "get in, get out". I'm sure if someone wanted to spend the time to search previous threads (and paper editions of ST) for examples, they could find a good number of ideas around that. Things change. For instance, the amount of firefighters, policemen (policewomen?), emergency managers and those around the rescue services that have become involved with chasing has increased significantly in the recent decade. They have also been some of the more vocal people in the community. So this may explain the change.

In general, from reading things in the past before I started and then up to around 2001-2002, it was a basic understanding that there is an ethical obligation to report (when reporting is possible), but it was NOT "expected". As usual, I try to find what those before me did (and do now) as my guide if not already obvious. Granted the 'community' was smaller, less diverse in it's make up in those days.

Personally, I just find I am still of that general idea..."get in & get out". I don't report often. While chasing, I'm usually busy as hell, as exampled by this past event with 60mph storms. However, I haven't been in the plains (with slower storms) since things like SN existed. Ham Radio never seem to be easy to make a report because finding the local net was difficult. If the past high risk event was any indication though...I think anytime we considered sending in a report (and failed to do so), we found "spotters" had done so. I can't say whether our report would have helped or not, confirmation is sometimes good, but cluttered reports is bad.

I don't think realistically anyone should be too concerned if they are not reporting. I think at the very least, the underlying message of understanding priorities is key. A reminder of sorts. It is good to remind ourselves that life is precious and while we may want to focus more on imagery and the chase experience, the value of life should always be high on our minds.

 

[Danny Neal]

I just wanted to address the "why we are out there" comment. I'm not out there to assist with the warning process. And if most were honest with themselves, they would admit its not "why" they are out their either. It is something they do on the side. And please notice I said MOST. Maybe there are those whose main purpose for pursuing severe weather is warning the public. My purpose is to do something I love to do... being out on the raod, BY MYSELF photographing severe weather. Now if I see someone in need or can help someone along the way, I do it, I love doing that. I try to live by "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...

But honestly, I would not expect a person that is out to experience and photograph severe weather, to make reports or for that matter drive into town with the intent of helping in disaster relief. I certainly wouldn't expect him to be trained in CPR and carry fancy gear and try to revive me...or drive into my town and "clear houses" after a tornado struck. I wouldn't expect him to call in reports. There just seems to be a lot of pressure here lately to the point I'm getting bogged down in thinking about all of this instead of just enjoying my trips. Having said that, I always stop when I see a car in the ditch or someone in need. Just do what you would have others do for you, that's it.

So basically you are saying, that I am asking to much for you to take 20 seconds out of your time to dial 911 when you see a tornado when you are the only one around. It's like guy that sees someone's house on fire in the middle of the night and shrugs and says "Meh I am not a firefighter" and keeps driving. You want to take photos and stay out of ground zero....fine more power to you. But I would think everyone agrees that if you see a tornado on an unwarned storm heading for civilization; you lose the "that's not what I'm out here for" attitude and pick up the phone.

 

[Scott Weberpal]

Please people... remember why we are really out here. Please pick up the phone or submit that report!

As stated above - most of the "we" (I assume a reference to chasers) who are out there are not out there specifically to report, we are out there to document. There might be hundreds of chasers on a storm, and only one or two reports - that should tell you right there that "we" are not out there to report. Yes, some (including myself) do report, but it's not "the reason we are out there".

 

[Adam Lucio]

This whole argument is based on the assumption one has a working phone. I dunno about some of you but there are parts of Iowa and Wisconsin I've chased in where I get zero reception on my cell phone, then what? I guess that makes me a bad person because I didn't choose the proper cell phone plan for the area I am chasing.

Ive always supported the notion that as chasers we should do whats right and call in reports/help when we can...but some people just want nothing to do with seeing death and destruction. They should not be criticized for it. I too am sick of people hiding behind the "I am there to save lives" in order to justify being out there. Everyone is out there because they have a personal love for severe weather and want to see a friggin tornado first and foremost otherwise noone would spend thousands of dollars each year to travel to the open plains to see storms where they don't often affect large populations.

Should people call in reports? Absolutely.

Should people stop and help when a town gets hit? Absolutely

Is it the right thing to do? Definitely.

Do I give a crap if its someones personal choice is to not want to see that type of destruction and human suffering up close? No.

How about we stop worrying what others are doing and do what we can to optimize our own performance and comfort levels. If un-trained chasers were trying to help and that 1 in 10000 scenario happens where they do more harm than good you'll have a bunch of people whining and bitching that we should be staying out of the way of the people who are trained. I've seen those threads pop up in here more than once.

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

That's my .02

 

[Jason Boggs]

This whole argument is based on the assumption one has a working phone. I dunno about some of you but there are parts of Iowa and Wisconsin I've chased in where I get zero reception on my cell phone, then what? I guess that makes me a bad person because I didn't choose the proper cell phone plan for the area I am chasing.

Ive always supported the notion that as chasers we should do whats right and call in reports/help when we can...but some people just want nothing to do with seeing death and destruction. They should not be criticized for it. I too am sick of people hiding behind the "I am there to save lives" in order to justify being out there. Everyone is out there because they have a personal love for severe weather and want to see a friggin tornado first and foremost otherwise noone would spend thousands of dollars each year to travel to the open plains to see storms where they don't often affect large populations.

Should people call in reports? Absolutely.

Should people stop and help when a town gets hit? Absolutely

Is it the right thing to do? Definitely.

Do I give a crap if its someones personal choice is to not want to see that type of destruction and human suffering up close? No.

How about we stop worrying what others are doing and do what we can to optimize our own performance and comfort levels. If un-trained chasers were trying to help and that 1 in 10000 scenario happens where they do more harm than good you'll have a bunch of people whining and bitching that we should be staying out of the way of the people who are trained. I've seen those threads pop up in here more than once.

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

That's my .02

Very good post Adam! I agree 100% on everything you've said here. People need to stop worrying about what others do, and worry about themselves!

 

[Dan Robinson]

Again, I agree with Danny in part that it's very simple to pick up the phone for 20 seconds if you're in the position to do it. There have been times in the past that I didn't do it (not purposefully, just juggling too many things) and felt bad about it later. However, I also believe it depends on the situation. I would say that 99% of tornadoes that chasers see are inconsequential in terms of reporting value, other than for storm data. A wispy little rope touching a field for 5 seconds isn't worth scrambling and making a frantic phone call to the NWS, yet we see that all the time. A violent wedge heading for a town is different. But how many violent wedges don't have clear radar signatures? Yes, I know there might be that one rare example here and there, but what's the overall impact of those once-every-15-year instances? And, in an extreme surface-based supercell enviroment, with a strong couplet on radar heading for a town, what justification would there be to *not* issue a warning? I understand how ground truth confirmation would provide a little more assurance, but is it *critical*? Again, I'm NOT saying "don't report" - I'm just saying its lifesaving value is probably the exception rather than the rule.

There are economics behind public safety. Public safety costs money, someone has to bear that cost. No one vilifies a police officer for bargaining for more pay to do his job, and if he doesn't get it, he can quit and no one will blame him. Volunteering covers some of the need, but when volunteerism becomes an obligation, then a line is crossed. I can live with that, but OK - then let's see some appreciation in return. No one chides the gas stations for not giving us a discount. Or the tire manufacturers. They make a profit off of our "lifesaving actions", why can't we at least cover some of our costs with video? Can't we get a 20% voucher for fuel if we call in tornadoes that day? Something, anything? This isn't about making money, it's about recovering *back* some of the thousands a year we spend. So many don't think about what things cost nowadays. Money just grows on trees (or credit cards) and everything should be free. I wish my bank felt that way about my mortgage and truck payments.

 

[Adam Lucio]

Ive heard people say they were trying to report tornadoes but the 911/NWS call center gets a busy signal. What if someone is calling in a life threatening emergency with an injured or dying person and cant get through because 40 chasers are calling in the same tornado that has been reported 20 times already? I would think this is a rare occurrence but again....what if?

If the sirens have already been sounding in a town for 10 minutes, is a report really going to make a difference that the tornado is now on 45th street as opposed to 37th street just a few moments ago? People are either going to take shelter when the sirens go off or they aren't. I doubt many [if any at all] will be sitting there clutching their NOAA radio waiting for an updated report saying the tornado is now only a block away before finally deciding to take shelter.

There are just too many variables and situations that come into play, and that is why I don't cast harsh judgement towards people one way or another. I just do what I think is right, and what I am comfortable with. If someone else does something I don't agree with, oh well.

 

[Tim Shriver]

If you can do it great, no one is saying to purchase a ton of rescue equipment,at least I am not.

But if the thing is surrounded by chasers or anyone for that matter and no one calls it in then
I am sorry, something is wrong.

In the end I would do my best to insure that a town that may have
your son, daughter, wife or parents in it is made aware of any danger heading their way.

But then that's just me.

Tim

 

[Danny Neal]

Point is it is common sense to report something that is unreported. I don't even see how this is an issue. No I don't care that those involved didn't report; I didn't X them off my facebook list or send them mean texts. Point is I brought awareness to the situation in hopes that a major event doesn't happen where someone decided setting up his tripod, or messing with his stupid stream (I hate streaming naturally I am biased ), or even looking for roads on a map was more important than a phone call or dropping an icon. Some of the attitudes toward this haven't surprised me with the new age of up-close extreme video at any costs.....

I love to document severe weather, my passion for it is challenged by none. But last I checked the NWS isn't looking for chaser/spotter for ground video..... IIRC it was ground truth. If you have data to stream live from there, you have data to help the warning process. If it ain't your thing, fine. But I can't believe people would be so resistant to do an ethical thing.

 

[Danny Neal]

You need to think back to the context of why this blog was written and then what I said.... I don't know what more to tell you.

 

[Scott Weberpal]

I did, however, that's not how you worded it in the original post, and that is what folkse are referring to.

Your blog is about an NWS met not liking the fact that some chasers didn't report a tornado...then you say on ST "Please people... remember why we are really out here. Please pick up the phone or submit that report!"

Your statement goes beyond a simple recommendation of ethics and into stating that reporting tornadoes and helping in an aftermath is THE reason "we" are out there.

I get your ultimate point - that we should make a concerted effort to report and help out, I just don't understand the statement about it being 'the reason we are out there'.

 

[Danny Neal]

I did, however, that's not how you worded it in the original post, and that is what folkse are referring to.

Your blog is about an NWS met not liking the fact that some chasers didn't report a tornado...then you say on ST "Please people... remember why we are really out here. Please pick up the phone or submit that report!"

Your statement goes beyond a simple recommendation of ethics and into stating that reporting tornadoes and helping in an aftermath is THE reason "we" are out there.

So of the whole point of the blog, you decide to pick on one sentence where I make a blanket statement? Over-looking the ethics and common sense? You yourself say you report... why argue against it? I never said reporting was the only reason people are out there .. it should be one of the top ones though. Plenty of time to get video, stream, drive into it... whatever. I thought it was implied a chaser/spotter/newb would help out in any way they are capable... I was severely and sadly mistaken.

 

[Karen St John]

Another way to think about things...the call can be part of one's documentation. Just sayin'...

 

[Joshua Nall]

There's some misunderstanding here I think, no ones really disagreeing with anyone else. Just to clarify...my previous comments were partly in response to the mood of some other threads lately I suppose. There have been several blanket statements made and things said like "all chasers" should do this or that. There's all sorts of things you could do in life. I could report everything I see. I could become a fully trained EMT I suppose and drive to every town that's hit. I'm just saying I would never expect a lot of what's been suggested of others. I want people to just get out and have a good time and do what they feel is right.

I have never been in the situation where there was a storm that was becoming tornadic and was not warned. That's a different situation. NWS numbers are in my phone of areas I frequent and 911 is simple enough to dial. I'd like to think most people will just do the right thing when faced with these situations.

 

[Danny Neal]

There's some misunderstanding here I think, no ones really disagreeing with anyone else. Just to clarify...my previous comments were partly in response to the mood of some other threads lately I suppose. There have been several blanket statements made and things said like "all chasers" should do this or that. There's all sorts of things you could do in life. I could report everything I see. I could become a fully trained EMT I suppose and drive to every town that's hit. I'm just saying I would never expect a lot of what's been suggested of others. I want people to just get out and have a good time and do what they feel is right.

I have never been in the situation where there was a storm that was becoming tornadic and was not warned. That's a different situation. NWS numbers are in my phone of areas I frequent and 911 is simple enough to dial. I'd like to think most people will just do the right thing when faced with these situations.

Yeah, I think there is some big miscommunications going on here I think the greatest thing to take away from this is when it comes time to drop a report, most will do it. I wasn't trying to say every chasers goal should be to report any and every thing they see in 20 minute intervals; and I certainly wasn't implying all chasers should jump into the war zone (I actually frown upon that.) I was hoping people would take away the positive light of chasers sending in reports and assisting victims over the negative light of driving with your lights off, unsafe driving, etc. Like I said in my OP I am not the chaser police, nor do I want to be or claim to be. I was just passing a long a message of discontent from one of my good met. friends. Blanket statements like people should call in reports over shooting video for selfish purposes still hold water to me in this argument, but I am not going to force my logic on people. I was never pointing the accusatory finger at anyone, however I can see why many NWS mets hold a batted eye toward chasers with some of the selfish attitudes floating around in the chasing world! Again, I take no issue with anyone just my opinion.

 

[Scott Weberpal]

Yeah, I think there is some big miscommunications going on here....

Thanks for clarifying, much less contradictory. 100% agreement that most people will likely report - especially in a situation where it's apparent a tornado has the potential to do damage. While most are out there solely to enjoy and document, the large majority will take time to make an accurate, timely report.

 

[Jake Orosi]

This. It is a free country, and if people want to go out and look at a storm for the sole purpose of observing, photographing, or videographing, then they are free to do that. Spotters are VOLUNTEERS. It's a bit ridiculous IMO for these NWS mets to complain about volunteers, or lack thereof. Personally, I will call in and report what I see, especially if the storm is heading towards a populated area, but I'm not mad at anyone for being out there on the public roads at their free will to take pictures and video. Everyone chases/spots for different reasons.

In fairness to the NWS, it doesn't seem to me like the quoted mets are complaining so much about the fact that people are chasing and videotaping tornadoes without reporting them all by itself, but the fact that so many who do so, when discussing what they do after the fact, are keen on talking a big game about how their activities are somehow "saving lives". Strictly speaking, a YouTube video posted after a storm contains no useful life-saving information at all. In the meantime, the NWS makes an effort to train, at their own expense, anyone who is willing to learn how to spot severe weather with the understanding that these people will actually report the severe weather they encounter, and evidently these classes are almost always well-attended every time and place they're held. Considering just how many trained spotters are out there, when a tornado develops somewhere that isn't the middle of nowhere and the NWS doesn't get so much as a phone call - I'm just saying, I can understand them feeling a bit jaded about the volunteer situation.

 

[Lanny Dean]

After watching much of the recent video from the Litchfield event, some coming from the author of this post as well, I wonder how many people reported that tornado?

Just curious?

 

[Danny Neal]

Everyone including the author before it touched down, as it was lifting, and when damage was seen. Curiosity killed the cat. Look at the LSR of storm chaser reports tornado, large tornado crossing I 55, etc. Bart Comstock and Skip Talbot were also very active in reporting.

 

[Danny Neal]

If you watch my 55 video you actually hear me dial 911 (time number 2) before the video ends. After my first 911 call after about 2 mins the sirens in Litchfield blew...even though they had been under a warning 20 mins prior. Puzzling

 

[Skip Talbot]

I wonder how many people reported that tornado?

I was very impressed with how well the initial tornadoes (the ones from discrete supercells that weren't heavily rain wrapped) were reported on Tuesday. I saw multiple LSR's come in for each the Bowling Green, Girard, and Litchfield tornadoes from multiple sources including law enforcement, EMA, spotters, public, and chasers. Looking at the NWSChat logs I can see that the NWS was actively taking reports via the chat, from live streams, and from Spotter Network. Timmer, Lucio, Comstock and myself all streamed those tornadoes live. My Spotter Network report didn't show up in the LSR's but three other LSR's did pop up from the Girard tornado so its not as though it was necessary. I know this thread probably had little to do with the abudance of reports on Tuesday, but it was ringing bells in the back of my head. I was quite busy driving/navigating at the time of touchdown so I had Jenn hop on SN for me to hit the button. Anyway, hats off to all those who got timely reports into the NWS on Tuesday.

 

[Paul Hadfield]

I was very impressed with how well the initial tornadoes (the ones from discrete supercells that weren't heavily rain wrapped) were reported on Tuesday. I saw multiple LSR's come in for each the Bowling Green, Girard, and Litchfield tornadoes from multiple sources including law enforcement, EMA, spotters, public, and chasers. Looking at the NWSChat logs I can see that the NWS was actively taking reports via the chat, from live streams, and from Spotter Network. Timmer, Lucio, Comstock and myself all streamed those tornadoes live. My Spotter Network report didn't show up in the LSR's but three other LSR's did pop up from the Girard tornado so its not as though it was necessary. I know this thread probably had little to do with the abudance of reports on Tuesday, but it was ringing bells in the back of my head. I was quite busy driving/navigating at the time of touchdown so I had Jenn hop on SN for me to hit the button. Anyway, hats off to all those who got timely reports into the NWS on Tuesday.

The Girard Tornado couldn't have technically been on the ground (swirling dirt) for more than a minute when you could hear the sirens start to wail. Right after I set up (which took all but a few seconds and it hadn't quite gotten under way) I heard the sirens so I was like "Cool, they got this" and went about my business. Once the dust settled and I got back to my vehicle, I called ILX. I was like "You probably already know this but a large tornado just set down N of Girard." They said "Yeah we know" so I then proceeded to offer visual description of the damage I could see at that time (power poles and lines). Heading home that night and playing everything over in my head including my decision to not call in, I concluded it was alright for what's the point in wasting their time or mine relaying information they already knew. Once the sirens go off then the warning process is complete. It certainly wasn't my intent to see anything let alone have to call anything in but for that situation and the way it developed so rapidly, it's impressive how many people were immediately all over it. The tornado went from dirt swirls W of town to EF3 in approximately 5 minutes. Still trying to wrap my head around that aspect.

Edit: The owner of the property to take a direct hit was out with his livestock. He saw the tornado as the sirens were simultaneously going off and took shelter in the house with his girlfriend. The way everything played out in those five minutes which enabled them to take cover in a timely manner couldn't have fell into place more perfectly.

 

[Danny Neal]

Danny

Read your blog post from 4/15/11 about the nws comments.

I worked for the NWS for 32 years, (including last 7 years at LOT) 5 1/2 years retired now. Can not comment on what is reported back to the nws currently with all the video, SN, etc, but I can comment of what I observed in the office prior to retirement. You can not imagine how few live reports came into the office from anyone (spotters, law enforcement, emergency management). Even when we saw big storms in populated areas, we would be lucky to receive 1 report back. Not talking about tornadoes specifically, just any reports back (wind, hail, flooding, etc). Our job in the office the next day was to hit the phones hard to try to scrounge up reports from the previous days weather.

Just from the reading, it sounds like nothing has changed in a general regard. So I do not believe this was an isolated incident, it sounds to me like the "chasers" have not had a mindset change on the whole. To me, their #1 priority should be the report, the video, etc #2. Looks like there area still a number out there that have this reversed.

You may post this on your blog page if you wish.
--
Allan Fisher

Had another NWS met (retired) email me about my blog posting.... I would think things got much better since hes been retired (5+ years now). Perhaps if chasers/spotters/etc start flooding in reports (in the future) it will satisfy their thirst? Makes you wonder if this was an underlying reason why they started the report by Twitter/Facebook... to make reporting that much easier (but not necessarily more accurate) Just passing along the word.