Pictures on Tornado Attack Website

[Shane Adams]

So other than the obvious (curiosity and braggin' rights), from a science point of view, what types of things would be measured and accomplished from inside the funnel vs outside?

Be well, TR

Personally, the number one thing I want to know about tornadoes, as far as what's going on inside them, is airflow. VORTEX I believe documented cases where strong tornadoes contained sustained doendrafts of up to 50mph inside their core. To me this is the ultimate goal - finding out what the air on the inside is doing.

We touched on a theory back last year on wx-chase about "shells" of rotation within tornadoes....that is to say, different layers of rotating columns of air, like a "stacked" multi-vortex tornado. One of the theories I came up with was that these shells are a contstant with any tornado, and that multiple vortices occure when that shell breaks down, causing the layers to "un-align" or scatter, adapting a more horizontal center of rotation than vertical, creating the chaotic, multiple vortex structure.

Perhaps these documented downdrafts within sustained tornado funnels sometimes break down, interupted by updraft flow or some localized boundary......this could possibly dictate the form of a tornado .....single vortex/multiple/vortex/in between??????

I dunno, I'm not very smart at this numbers/physics stuff, but despite that.......my mind still tries on its own.

 

[Jeff Snyder]

Sounds like vortex breakdown...

Several universities / groups / etc have down research and found that there are indeed downdrafts within some vortices. If conditions are right, and if I understand the theory correctly, this decending air can hit the surface and cause the outer rotation to break up into several discrete vortices... This is explained in relatively simple terms on TVC III (I think that's the one) when viewing the semi-famous helicopter video of the tornado-in-the-open near Minneapolis Minnesota years ago.

Hopefully Dan Dawson, whom I think knows quite a bit more about this, can chime in and give us some more specifics...

 

[Chris Sokol]

So other than the obvious (curiosity and braggin' rights), from a science point of view, what types of things would be measured and accomplished from inside the funnel vs outside?

How about the amount of poop that can fit in a persons pants?

 

[Bill Hamilton]

So other than the obvious (curiosity and braggin' rights), from a science point of view, what types of things would be measured and accomplished from inside the funnel vs outside?

How about the amount of poop that can fit in a persons pants?

How about the amount of revenue that can be received from sponsors by a publicity stunt with no REAL meaning.

 

[Todd Rittinger]

Personally, the number one thing I want to know about tornadoes, as far as what's going on inside them, is airflow. VORTEX I believe documented cases where strong tornadoes contained sustained doendrafts of up to 50mph inside their core. To me this is the ultimate goal - finding out what the air on the inside is doing.

We touched on a theory back last year on wx-chase about "shells" of rotation within tornadoes....that is to say, different layers of rotating columns of air, like a "stacked" multi-vortex tornado. One of the theories I came up with was that these shells are a contstant with any tornado, and that multiple vortices occure when that shell breaks down, causing the layers to "un-align" or scatter, adapting a more horizontal center of rotation than vertical, creating the chaotic, multiple vortex structure.

Perhaps these documented downdrafts within sustained tornado funnels sometimes break down, interupted by updraft flow or some localized boundary......this could possibly dictate the form of a tornado .....single vortex/multiple/vortex/in between??????

I dunno, I'm not very smart at this numbers/physics stuff, but despite that.......my mind still tries on its own.

Ok Shane and Jeff, I'm going to take a stab at this. I'm one of those visual/hands on type learners, and that is infinately more difficult since air molecules can't be seen (contents aside). In my former life I was a chef, so please forgive the analogy, but it's what I know

Hokee, our vortex is going to be a hollowed out cucumber on it's end. I've also cut it into 1inch or so sections, they are stacked on top of each other, each rotating, and we have air moving downwards thru the cucumber core like blowing in a straw. Am I on track? Then you are saying that this downward air can knock the rotating cucumber rings out of alignment causing them to rotate independently of the group and possibly create vortices of their own? Jeff is also saying that the downward air hitting the earth and spreading out can also knock our cucumber rings out of alignment. Am I close guys, or should I eat the cucumber and try again? :wink:

Chris Sokol - LOL, never considered that. I am sure there is some government agency that could use that data! :idea:

Bill Hamilton - what do you think the ramifications to the sponsor(s) would be if some doufus was killed while trying this in their donated vehicle for example? I think I have a good idea how it would go over here in Canada (tornadoes would be deamed illegal and offending storms would be charged to the full extent of the law :lol: ), but curious about the US.

Thanx for your input guys, and sorry again Niki to be hijacking your thread...

Be well, TR

 

[Shane Adams]

Hokee, our vortex is going to be a hollowed out cucumber on it's end. I've also cut it into 1inch or so sections, they are stacked on top of each other, each rotating, and we have air moving downwards thru the cucumber core like blowing in a straw. Am I on track? Then you are saying that this downward air can knock the rotating cucumber rings out of alignment causing them to rotate independently of the group and possibly create vortices of their own? Jeff is also saying that the downward air hitting the earth and spreading out can also knock our cucumber rings out of alignment. Am I close guys, or should I eat the cucumber and try again? :wink:

Todd, you've basically got the idea, but instead of our rotations being "shelled" like links in a chain along a constant vortex tube, I was thinking that our different vortex columns were inside of each other; like a bunch of Hokees set inside each other, with the center one being the smallest diameter, then next outside one being a bit llarger, and so on.......to perhaps half a dozen layers of rotation or "shells".

If you've ever seen tornado video where a thin funnel appears inside of a hazy outer rotation or sheath, that's what I'm getting at.

 

[Todd Rittinger]

Shane, thanx dude! I have the picture in my head now. I was stumbling on the ring "shell" idea, I had them stacked on top of each other instead of inside each other.

Be well, TR

 

[Jason A.C. Brock]

Calln someone an idiot for having an oposing viewpoint than your own is not communicating. Its being outright rude and disrespectful. At least that is how I was raised. Of course I am understnading some of us werent raised that way or just dont give a damn.

 

[Bill Hamilton]

Just let it go already!!!! Get over it.

 

[mrobinson]

This thread is Bi Polar :roll:

FPlowman and Shane did the kiss make up thing so can we just let it go now...K thanks

 

[Tim Stoecklein]

Once again.....(cue the music) "And these are the days of our lives..." (go to commercial)

:roll:

 

[David Smith]

Sometimes guys I feel like I am reading a post by someone with multiple personalities. Thank god I am on the other side of the Pacific, it may not affect me over here.

Ok just a quick question does anyone know why there is a downdraft in something created by very strong updrafts? This is the part that confuses me. I understand the basic thermo dynamics of a thunderstorm, however why a downdraft would be trying to push down into the middle of a rapidly rising column of air mystifies me.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

Basically if air goes up it's coming down somewhere at the same time. Often there is shear carrying the precip away from the updraft. It's evidently not rising rapidly anymore if there is a down draft in it. If there is no wind shear carying the cooler air and preicp away from the udraft region then the storm rains on itself. Or it's a shortlived updraft. Cold air goes back down creates it's own boundary at the sfc acting like a scoop to lift the warm air once again. Sometimes it's best to think of a storm forming itself this or that direction instead of it moving here or there. Someone else can likely add better thought then this though.....

Mike

To add.... with supercells you basically have one updraft and two down draft regions. Forward flank precip would be one downdraft, and air sinking behind(upstream) the updraft(RFD) would be the second. Both act like funneling mechanisms for your updraft region. Once you have sinking air where your updraft was, that is now a downdraft. So that should be perplexing.

 

[David Sallee]

Ok, I'm going to take a stab at this.... please note, in no way or form would I go into a tornado... with that being said here is a better design for a vehicle to go into a tornado...

The one they have designed is more like a race car that I see every Sat night at the local dirt track.... as some one posted, there is alot of places for air "wind" to get under it and throw it about like a rag doll... soooo

Here is my design idea...

1. VERY Aerodynamic
2. Low Profile
3. can make as heavey as a car for weight purposes
4. UNMANED - remote control
5. Runs on electric
6. Frame constructed of steel
7. shell made out of Lexan or bullet proof glass

The frame would have wheels like a car (smaller though) that would be hydrolic... I'll explain later.... All of the computer and data components would be housed in a "black box" like container inside the shell...

How this whould work....

By remote control, guide the unit in the tornado path.... (remamber the hydrolic wheels)... once the vehicle is in place, the hydrolic wheel would then retract into the shell which would put the vehicle flat on the ground which should keep any wind from getting under it... if ya wanted to get fancy, you could have a couple large drill bits (like you use to drill post holes with) drill into the ground as the wheels are being raised which might help it be anchored better.... with the shell design, there shouldn't be very much if any wind resistance....

Here is a very rough shell design to show what I mean..
[Broken External Image]:http://www.viperschase.com/images/thought.jpg

Ok all, what do ya think? pick it apart, make it better, whatever... Do you think this would be a better design than their current one??

 

[Steve Udick]

problem with that design is Bernoulli. As a strong draft passes over top of that design, airflow will speed up to make up for the added distance the parcels of air have to travel, and as that speed increases, it will create a pressure low. If the wind speeds got great enough it could pull it off the ground. maybe some spoiler would be added to the top of it to brea up the boundry layer, but that still may not work with winds around F3 or higher....