How can we make Stormtrack better for 2011?

[Jesse Risley]

On the subject of moderation, the infraction system right now is broken and the level of passive-aggressive drivel being posted reflects this. You have people that continually push and really it shouldn't be up for debate. One of my favorite forums is extremely heavily moderated, and 150,000 users with 110 million posts in 3 million threads over 10+ years reinforces the fact that having a vision and sticking with it can work. This forum also faces the dilemma of how to allow "regular Joes" the ability to converse with celebrities in a specialty field, and they pull it off well.

Can you expound on this point in a bit more detail?

While I agree that the infraction-based point system needs to be enhanced to be more punitory (posts a la a repeat offense), as do some of the other moderators, I think both present and past moderator panels have generally done a decent job of quickly removing any "passive-aggressive drivel" that gets posted. There are plenty of posts that are removed in short order, due to being a violation of the posting requirements, before many get to read them, though this might often go unnoticed by the forum's body politic.

 

[Rob H]

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree

That Tim isn't incredibly active on the forums doesn't mean that the inmates need to, or even should, run the asylum. Thanks for proving my point that as a community there will always be fundamental issues that we can't agree on

Can you expound on this point in a bit more detail?

Mods do a great job at quickly removing obvious infractions, and I understand that a lot of it is caught before many people ever see it. It's somewhat difficult to expound on my point because it is such a subjective topic, but I'll do my best since I mentioned it.

There have been some posters that just crap all over others' posts, and some have turned this into an art form that they practice over a long period of time. Multiple infractions shouldn't just build up and reset over and over because that just enforces that the behavior has no consequences. Coming down a little harder on the veiled rudeness wouldn't be a bad thing, in my mind. You can have a well-written post and bury a nasty jab at someone in the middle and get away with it because you're riding the line of what's allowed in the TOS. It would be great if we could all just act like respectful adults - but we have a wide variety of backgrounds and beliefs, we're very passionate about what we discuss here, and no one is exempt from occasionally needing a little reminder to be more respectful.

Personal conversations with a few that no longer participate here tended to identify this general attitude/lack of respect as a primary cause of departure. Others that have decided to stay only post in Target Area to avoid it. You want to be respected and make your community better and be an active member, but you also don't want to second guess all your posts or feel that you're being analyzed and critiqued by your peers just to fuel a pointless debate.

I look back at the archives and wonder why we can't have the same level of discussions on meteorology as we did then. There are *tons* of subjects that still aren't well-understood, and no one really seems interested in discussing them. It feels like the science on the site is being replaced by opinion, and there are much better places to argue opinion than ST.

edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to claim that I'm a victim of disrespect. In fact, I'm fairly certain I've dished it out more than I've taken it. I'm actually surprised/disappointed that some of my posts in the past haven't been moderated. In my defense, I am actively trying not to be part of the problem now.

 

[Lanny Dean]

Originally Posted by Robert Hurkes

"On the subject of moderation, the infraction system right now is broken and the level of passive-aggressive drivel being posted reflects this. You have people that continually push and really it shouldn't be up for debate. One of my favorite forums is extremely heavily moderated, and 150,000 users with 110 million posts in 3 million threads over 10+ years reinforces the fact that having a vision and sticking with it can work. This forum also faces the dilemma of how to allow "regular Joes" the ability to converse with celebrities in a specialty field, and they pull it off well."

Can you expound on this point in a bit more detail?

While I agree that the infraction-based point system needs to be enhanced to be more punitory (posts a la a repeat offense), as do some of the other moderators, I think both present and past moderator panels have generally done a decent job of quickly removing any "passive-aggressive drivel" that gets posted. There are plenty of posts that are removed in short order, due to being a violation of the posting requirements, before many get to read them, though this might often go unnoticed by the forum's body politic.

You have got to be kidding me right????

Tim, you opened this can of worms....are you sure you want the kind of response that I am willing to give? If so, the above post is a prime example and reflection of what is exactly wrong with this forum, it owners, including you (no offense) and MOST IMPORTANTLY, most current moderators and their thought process.

Just two questions, where is Shane Adams? And where are the many other people that used to frequent this forum before they got "beat down" by the Stormtrack police or simply got tired of all the hammering?

STAFF EDIT: Profanity removed

 

[Jesse Risley]

You have got to be kidding me right????

Tim, you opened this can of worms....are you sure you want the kind of response that I am willing to give? If so, the above post is a prime example and reflection of what is exactly wrong with this forum, it owners, including you (no offense) and MOST IMPORTANTLY, most current moderators and their thought process.

Just two questions, where is Shane Adams? And where are the many other people that used to frequent this forum before they got "beat down" by the Stormtrack police or simply got tired of all the bull s h i t hammering?

Why should nonsense be tolerated? If people can't follow simple rules, then there should be consequences. All that anyone asks is that members come aboard and contributed legitimate information to a storm chaser message board. Snarks, insults and off-topic (e.g., comments like "this looks like a great place to chase" in a TA thread) posts don't contribute anything to the community, do they?

We're not obliged to discuss specific reasons why members have left, out of respect for those former members, if nothing else. However, no one has been disbarred from the forum by the "Stormtrack police." There have been recent instances where members have specifically requested that their account be deleted, but they were not banned.

 

[Robert Dewey]

I personally think the moderation is right where it should be, perhaps could even be a little tighter. I'm almost to the point of saying the B&G isn't even needed, since most of us use Facebook for that type of discussion (which is in stark contrast to where I used to stand). The current moderators are doing a great job... and if someone left the board because they couldn't handle following the rules or lose their snarkiness/attitude for the 5 seconds they take to write a one-liner, then good riddance. It seems to me most of this originates from the B&G, and tends to overflow into the rest of the forum... which is unavoidable other than continuously adding to my ever-growing "blocked" list.

 

[Bob Hartig]

That's not normal by any stretch. That's immature and childish. An unfortunate side effect of an educational system which gives partial credit to 2+2=3 because you tried hard, and parents giving ribbons to their kid who finishes 75th in a 75 person race. The real world doesn't work like that, so anyone reacting that way to an infraction should get the immediate boot.

I agree, not so much with the immediate boot as with the overall thinking. I've frankly been amazed at how thin-skinned some folks are about getting an infraction. Yes, an infraction is an "oops!" moment that stings a bit, but so what? If you were wrong, take it as an opportunity to learn and make a course adjustment; if you disagree with the infraction, then respectfully take it up with staff. Whatever the case, keep in mind that it's just a rubber band snap, not a suspension. You're being reminded of the rules, not banished to a desert island with a week's supply of Spam.

Someone pointed out that the term infraction may sound too punitive for what it is, and suggested calling it something else. That's a good idea. A milder term could help correct some people's inordinately negative perception of what barely amounts to even a slap on the wrist.

 

[Bob Hartig]

Thinking about infractions a little more, why not change the wording to "courtesy reminder"? If not that, then something similar that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings because they've been--shock!--infracted. How dare you infract me when all I needed was a courteous reminder!

You could then reserve the word "infraction" for rule violations of a somewhat more serious nature. I realize that "somewhat more serious" is subjective and my idea may just be complicating matters. On the other hand, it could offer a diplomatic tool for mods.

 

[Jason Boggs]

Thinking about infractions a little more, why not change the wording to "courtesy reminder"? If not that, then something similar that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings because they've been--shock!--infracted. How dare you infract me when all I needed was a courteous reminder!

You could then reserve the word "infraction" for rule violations of a somewhat more serious nature. I realize that "somewhat more serious" is subjective and my idea may just be complicating matters. On the other hand, it could offer a diplomatic tool for mods.

Courtesy reminder sounds like a winner. It's a nicer sounding way to say that a member did something wrong and it needs to be corrected. I like it.

 

[Jesse Risley]

Thinking about infractions a little more, why not change the wording to "courtesy reminder"? If not that, then something similar that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings because they've been--shock!--infracted. How dare you infract me when all I needed was a courteous reminder!

You could then reserve the word "infraction" for rule violations of a somewhat more serious nature. I realize that "somewhat more serious" is subjective and my idea may just be complicating matters. On the other hand, it could offer a diplomatic tool for mods.

I can support renaming the system to something that sounds less castigating. As someone else noted, an infraction is not a fine, nor is it some sort of a formal punishment, imprisonment or even the loss of real personal property.

This is a message board, and in infraction is essentially a negative sanction that's nothing more than a reminder to please follow the rules for posting here.

With that being said, my previously expressed desire for a more punitive system was in reference to the accumulation of "infraction" points. There is a very minor percentage of users (less than probably 1%-2% of the membership) that tend to be frequent fliers. I don't see why the current system shouldn't be modified to allow for a more frequent and lengthy hiatus from the forums if someone is going to continually collect points for repeat offenses of a similar nature (e.g., 2 or 3 non-forecasting posts in a TA thread each month), since the current system allows for what I would call an infinitesimal amount of points for most offenses, and those points expire after 10-30 days anyhow.

 

[Tim Vasquez]

Reply #100 is a good time for me to jump in and let you all know that I appreciate the ideas and that this thread is being actively monitored by myself and the other moderators. I have tried to refrain from addressing any specific ideas yet since this discussion is important and I want to let it go in whichever direction it needs to go. The minute I start discussing specifics, that will derail some of the other worthwhile ideas, so I prefer to stay out of things at the moment.

As this thread slows down or once we start beating a dead horse I will write some lengthy and detailed replies. We also have a parallel thread going in the private admin area where we are debating the ideas that have merit.

Tim

 

[Adam Lucio]

I think renaming the system is silly. We are all adults here, if the words "warning" and "infraction" are too tough for you I suggest you go talk to this guy:

 

[Bob Hartig]

I dunno, Adam...after seeing Rob's "uncut" version of the drill sergeant on FB, I almost feel like the guy here is paying me a compliment.

In response to your comment, first, I hate making things more complex than they need to be. Bearing that in mind, I decided to toss the idea out on the table anyway and see where it went. My reasoning is that some infractions carry punitive weight to them, and they should, while others are merely corrective. Thus, from what I can see, not all infractions are equal; yet presently they're all lumped under one negative-sounding term.

Now factor in the different levels of maturity represented on this forum along with people's differing views on what it actually means to get slapped with an infraction--a term I can't find defined or even mentioned in the FAQs/rules (did I miss something?)--and I find myself thinking that it might be helpful to separate between the severe-sounding term and something more positive.

I don't see this approach as capitulating to thin-skinned people. I see it as serving both members and staff by adding a communication option that can give moderators an extra diplomatic edge while still using infractions for actions that call for a firm slap on the wrist, particularly for repeat offenders who ought to know better.

I think you know that I am NOT for coddling bad behavior. I like that this forum articulates and enforces its rules, even when I'm the guy who gets infracted for screwing up. But I think that having an extra, more positive-sounding term on hand can serve both members and moderators by clarifying that some correction is just correction, not a penalty.

For that matter, though, I suppose the mods could at their discretion just PM a person. I had that happen recently. I screwed up and got a note from a mod advising me that I'd crossed protocol. No infraction issued, just a course correction that I needed and appreciated. There's more than one way to get the job done, and one of the virtues of good moderators is their ability to make appropriate judgment calls.

 

[Danny Neal]

*BUMP*

Didn't want this important thread to get buried in the index.

 

[Jason Foster]

I would love the option of allowing poll answers to be changed. I'm not sure that is even possible with vBulletin...haven't seen any other using this format with that ability to do this...but have been on some forums that do...so I figured I'd ask...as it may be possible.

 

[Dann Cianca]

Here are a few thoughts:

1) I would agree with having an image resize capability. I upload close-to-full-resolution shots to my blog and would be more inclined to share pictures if my images could easily be resized to fit forum aesthetics.

2) I like the idea of a photography section.

3) More Tim V!

And finally...

When I joined Storm Track in 2007, it really seemed like a privilege that I was accepted. I don't actually recall if this was required at the time, but I wrote a long essay about my love for meteorology and storm chasing and that I wanted to be able to contribute to and learn from this forum. I hoped that what I wrote was good enough to join in this well-respected forum and I'm still thankful for that.

Again, I'm not really sure of the processes that went behind accepting new members at the time, but as I understand it now, you can just sign up.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why many longstanding members have left or disappeared?

I think that it would be a good idea to have people here to believe it as a privilege and not as a right. I think this would cut down on some of the drama and clutter.