Dr. Gray Slams Gore

[fplowman]

I hear a lot of people saying GW is made up to make money, Blah Blah Blah. No, the real money being made is by the people who are fighting it, Oil Companies, Refineries, Factories, etc... I don't see what the harm is in cleaning up the earth and lowering carbon emissions. Worst case scenario if GW is 100% natural and humans are not contributing at all then at least we will be cleaning the earth and making it a healthier environment to live. If we all unite to do everything we can to clean up the earth then not only will we be helping with GW but we may see Cancer statistics go down from breathing cleaner air and other positive effects.

Blah, Blah, Blah means that your not listening to an alternative viewpoint. Your mind is made up already. You have accepted GW as it is somehwat of a religion. And when someone says anything counter to your religion you turn it off and it becomes Blah, Blah, Blah. That said, this is not an attack on your GW religion or you.

Now an alternative viewpoint. I hope you will read and understand the points made.

In KC we have a new shopping and entertainment district. Its called the Legends. It is made up of many multi million and billion dollar corporations.
NASCAR racetrack, A new waterpark coming that will rival Oceans of Fun, Cabelas, Nebraska Furniture Mart, D&B, many many restaraunts, TARGET.

Why does this matter? And what the hell does it have to do with global warming? Well allow me to pontificate.

Taxes on a 130k home in Wyandotte county exceed $2,000 a year. Im unsure if your a homeowner paying property taxes but this is highway robbery and is oppressive. A neighboring smaller county is $700 a year property taxes.

The unified government of Wyandotte county gave all these multi million and multi billion dollar corporations tax breaks to come here. Fine and dandy. However they say that they are now losing tax revenue ( revenue they never had to begin with ). So they tax the ever living tar out of folks that cant afford it instead of charging the billionaires who profit $$$ to do business here.

This is a scheme in my mind. Wouldnt you agree?

Now lets rewind to the GW discussion. Billionaire and millionaire corps are the ones who are responsible for most of the pollution in the world. This is not in dispute that our planet is being polluted by industry.

So the scheme will be. We must roll back our productivity ( read:standard of living ) or develop alternative fuels etc. ( like the ethanol debacle ) or tax the tar out of you and me to inhibit use of carbon producing services ie. fuel for vehicles, electricity, on and on.

I believe as do others that they will tax us into oblivion to bring to us these new technologies ( like ethanol ). That in the end will just create more revenue for governments ie local, state, federal, WORLD ( UN ) to fund these projects.

Now if the kings of industry were to step up and say. We believe we need a greener planet. We need to develop alternative energies, We are setting aside a Nobel peace prize, lol... Or a fund to further these techonologies to the tune of 5 billion or whatever. Then I would say hey ok, lets do it.

Instead we are going to increase your electric bill, your fuel, and the ripples in the pond ( food, goods ) to fund this, and its for your own good.

In summation we agree, the planet is being polluted, and the BIG business is trying to profit from the situation ( your argument: Big Corps they dont want it because it costs them ) But think for a minute if they were crafty with forethought ( as they are ) how could we profit if we were BIG business?

We are going to pay for this. And you may be riding a bicycle while going to work or storm chasing ( helmet optional )

I could go on and on in extreme detail of how this is happening but I dont want to violate COC. Maybe someday over a beer we can discuss it further.

 

[fplowman]

Even though I'm extremely unimpressed about his group's skill over the years in seasonal hurricane predictions, Dr. Gray has certainly earned the right to engage in healthy scientific debates, even on global climate issues.

Lately he has not chosen to contribute to scientific debate. His recent talks have basically boiled down to ad hominem attacks and paranoid conspiracy theories about widespread scientist fraud and accused anyone not on his side of having a personal/political agenda. His arguments recently have had little or nothing to do with the science involved.

Personally, I'm not at all interested or scientifically persuaded by political arguments by Gray against Gore (to his credit, Gore is staying above it by not dignifying with a response). I am much more interested in Gray vs. scientific reality, and it has been shown on Realclimate and other sites that most of Gray's "scientific" arguments on GW are very confused, unstructured, inconsistent, frequently changing, and thoroughly (and easily) debunked.

William Grays conspiracy theories are founded because he was approached and invited into the limo so to speak. He started off at the convention with I just retired and i can now speak freely and openly. Quote " Last I know they cant take my pension so allow me to be frank" IIRC

Amazingly when those in the upper echelon come out with a conspiracy they are called a kook. And of course when they dont the naysayers say, then why hasnt anyone involved in this so called conspiracy stepped forward.

 

[Mike Theiss]

Forgive me if this seems naive, but I think it's a similar situation to a sports team. A bunch of players have to get out there and get the job done, but somebody has to be the one to straighten out their errors when they don't see them, inspire a change in attitude and exhort them to win when they don't think it's possible (or necessary). So while the players are expected to execute a successful game plan that the manager has come up with by employing a variety of detailed athletic graces, no one expects the manager to be able to throw a 94 mph four seamer, then hit a home run and thereafter leg out a sac bunt. For this reason, the manager's time and energy is spent on study, planning and smart usage of his people skills, and the refined experential sense of how to play a hunch.

Without a manager, no team goes to a playoff. But no one expects the manager to do all the things he is expecting the players to do. Both components are mutual co-necessities.

How would it be possible to reach a worldwide audience with any serious concept if one was limited to phone calls, making home videos, putting them on the internet, and bicycling to in-county meetings? It takes funding, travel, endless production and promotion; all of these things consume energy and create waste. But how else could one who believes fully in the message he carries cut through the fog of commercial herding and meaningless entertainment--not to mention the headwinds created by well-funded and equally belief-driven opposition--that enshrouds the contemporary human?

Dave,

Very Well Put ! I hear this a lot about Gore being hypocritical because he takes jets around the world. How else would he get his message out worldwide? Gore's "Carbon Footprint" is not relative compared to the whole world's carbon footprint. I'm sure if there was a realistic alternative to flying or other means of travel he would do it. I think some of the skeptics get really defensive because they think Gore is blaming them. Nobody is blaming anyone for driving an SUV, etc.... The message is NOT to divide people (People whom fly and drive SUV's vs. People whom don't fly and drive SUV's). The message is for everyone as a whole to come up with another form of energy to power automobiles and to clean up the earth.

 

[Robert Dewey]

How would it be possible to reach a worldwide audience with any serious concept if one was limited to phone calls, making home videos, putting them on the internet, and bicycling to in-county meetings? It takes funding, travel, endless production and promotion; all of these things consume energy and create waste. But how else could one who believes fully in the message he carries cut through the fog of commercial herding and meaningless entertainment--not to mention the headwinds created by well-funded and equally belief-driven opposition--that enshrouds the contemporary human?

You're absolutely right... but what if I have a family of four in an area that receives and average of +250 inches of snow, requiring an SUV? What if I run a large corporation and need to make important meetings that are thousands of miles apart with the span of 24 hours, requiring a private jet?

Ultimately, I don't think it's right for Gore to preach (or indirectly / hypocritically imply) that his cause is any more important than someone else's.

For those who believe that Gore has the right to be a hypocrite for the sole purpose of spewing his ideology, how about you take the year off from chasing to decrease your carbon footprint... after all, our cause isn't nearly as important as fighting GW.

 

[Mike Theiss]

Blah, Blah, Blah means that your not listening to an alternative viewpoint. Your mind is made up already. You have accepted GW as it is somehwat of a religion. And when someone says anything counter to your religion you turn it off and it becomes Blah, Blah, Blah. That said, this is not an attack on your GW religion or you.

No! Blah Blah Blah does not mean I am not listening to an alternative viewpoint. It means that what they are saying is the same ol' song. The skeptics say GW is made up to make a profit and to me that is the craziest and stupidest thing I have ever heard. I always have an open mind and never really thought of my GW views as a religion. But, now that you say it like that what is wrong with treating it like a religion. I think something that could end mankind living on this planet should be treated as a religion.

 

[fplowman]

You mean like Gaiaism?

 

[Kevin Scharfenberg]

rdewey, there are reasonable ways to offset your carbon footprint, such as financial investment in environmentally friendly causes, which Gore does. This sort of argument that Gore is a "hypocrite" is weak, at best, and certainly not at all scientific.

 

[Robert Dewey]

...and certainly not at all scientific.

Why is it weak? And what would you expect of an opinion? Hopefully you're not expecting all of our opinions to be scientific.

 

[Mike Theiss]

On a positive note, Just a few years ago a lot of people said GW is not real and it's bogus. People said "Agh, the earth is not warming". Then we started seeing things happening that are the result of warming and more people have become more educated with this issue to form their own opinions. So now those same people who said GW is bogus are at least admitting that yes the earth is warming but it's a natural cycle. Ok, Fine. I believe an issue as complex as GW is going to take some time to get the ball rolling but it's rolling. At least we achieved the first step to convince people that the earth IS warming whether it's human caused or not. This is a positive step.

 

[John Mason]

No! Blah Blah Blah does not mean I am not listening to an alternative viewpoint. It means that what they are saying is the same ol' song. The skeptics say GW is made up to make a profit and to me that is the craziest and stupidest thing I have ever heard. I always have an open mind and never really thought of my GW views as a religion. But, now that you say it like that what is wrong with treating it like a religion. I think something that could end mankind living on this planet should be treated as a religion.

Very similar debates occurred in the past with radical theories that challenged aspects of the scientific, political or religious establishment. Plate Tectonics led to bitter falling-out within the Earth Science community when it was first introduced, but Darwinian Evolution caused a right old ding-dong, as its very basis was so challenging to many of the Church's edicts at the time. I note that there are some who still challenge it today. The most hostile criticism of the AGW concept tends to come from a political direction as its potential consequences are profoundly political in their nature. It will be very interesting to see what the position is in, say, 25 years time!

Cheers - John

 

[Marc Remillard]

You're absolutely right... but what if I have a family of four in an area that receives and average of +250 inches of snow, requiring an SUV? What if I run a large corporation and need to make important meetings that are thousands of miles apart with the span of 24 hours, requiring a private jet?

Ultimately, I don't think it's right for Gore to preach (or indirectly / hypocritically imply) that his cause is any more important than someone else's.

For those who believe that Gore has the right to be a hypocrite for the sole purpose of spewing his ideology, how about you take the year off from chasing to decrease your carbon footprint... after all, our cause isn't nearly as important as fighting GW.

Ok, The guy living in an area that receives +250 inches of snow and needs a SUV, or the guy who runs a large corporation and needs a private jet, have some realtivly good reasons to use those vehicles, Like Mr. Gore. But what about thousand of americans that uses their car to grab a Big Mac on the next corner (how ridiculous it is)? What about people that start their engine 15 minutes before entering the vehicle every morning of the week in winter season (And it's a very frequent thing)? What about groups of people going to a same spot taking a car for each of them instead of taking one or two car(s) for everyone? Then, I think it's right for Gore to preach that his cause is any more important than someone else's.

Edit:
No, storm chasing is not helping our planet, and I agree on that point. But, by not taking a year off from chasing, you could take the bus, walk, use bicycle, etc. At least, storm chasing can save the life of many people, but yeah, it's a bit paradoxal that you can save lives by hurting others in the future...

 

[Jay McCoy]

Ok, The guy living in an area that receives +250 inches of snow and needs a SUV, or the guy who runs a large corporation and needs a private jet, have some realtivly good reasons to use those vehicles, Like Mr. Gore. But what about thousand of americans that uses their car to grab a Big Mac on the next corner (how ridiculous it is)? What about people that start their engine 15 minutes before entering the vehicle every morning of the week in winter season (And it's a very frequent thing)? What about groups of people going to a same spot taking a car for each of them instead of taking one or two car(s) for everyone? Then, I think it's right for Gore to preach that his cause is any more important than someone else's.

I dont think me driving to McD's for a bigmac adds near as much GH gases as Gores Secret Service escort. It isnt just ol Gore in his monster armored SUV but the 4 motorcycles and 2 escort SUV's in his convoy adding to GW. I can understand him flying. We all have to fly to get to far off places but he has a massive house that uses tons of gas/electric to maintain and he has full secret service protection (he pays for it as do all ex VP's. Ex-presidents get it for free for life) that use up to 3 armored SUV's in convoy plus police escort. He could easily cancel his SS escorts. So yes he is a hypocrit.

And nearly everybody agress there is global warming. But when its still a 50/50 split on whether its natural or man made you cant expect everybody to jump on board with ideas that will cost billions of dollars. mostly paid by the middle/lower class in the form of taxes and higher costs for food/gas/utilties.

They say the ice cap is melting.. ya it has been for a few thousand years since the end of the ice age...tornado alley used to be covered in ice so I guess all those buffaloes passing gas melted it. There have been cold/warm periods all through the earths history. What makes this one any bigger?? We dont knwo what the actual temps were 1000 or even a few hundred years ago. not acurately to a scientific degree. What caused other ice ages to end?? there had to be warming of some sort back then. I know we add a ton of GH gases to the atmosphere but how much does it actually contribute and how much if any warmer does it make it over a natural warming cycle?? Nobody can answer that with any kind of certainty. And you expect me to struggle to pay all these higher costs on a theory by a guy will say anything to help his cause of environmentalism even when he wont cut back himself??? When he sells his huge power gobbling mansion and gives up his secret service convoy and drives a hybrid compact car himself then maybe some more people will take him seriously.

 

[Mikey Gribble]

Mike was mentioning how it is impossible to make an accurate long range hurricane forecast months in advance. That depends on what standards you are going to hold that forecast to. Everything is relative. Yeah, I admit the last two season were way off according to anybody's standards, but I don't think Gray deserves to be criticized in any way for that. He is working with the technology and information that is available to him. With those resources, you're right, it is virtually impossible to make accurate predictions.
The exact same thing applies to global warming. Gore doesn't have the first clue about where the climate is going to be a year from now, ten years from now, and certainly not a hundred years from now. Nobody knows that, but Gore professes to know, with no evident uncertainty, what the climate will be doing. You can't extrapolate short term trends into the long term and realistically expect it to be accurate. That's what he does though.
I do totally agree with the majority that we do need to clean up the way we live. It is a good cause and I'm all for it. I just have a serious problem with applying scare tactics and half truths (pawned off as fact) to achieve it. The ends don't justify the means IMO. Lets call a spade a spade and admit there are huge uncertainties when it comes to global warming. Anybody who says (and believes) matter of factly that they know what is causing the warming, is either ignorant or a fool IMO. Once again though, I am all for cleaning up the environment. I'm just not for commercials with speeding freight train analogies to achieve it.

 

[fplowman]

I dont think me driving to McD's for a bigmac adds near as much GH gases as Gores Secret Service escort. It isnt just ol Gore in his monster armored SUV but the 4 motorcycles and 2 escort SUV's in his convoy adding to GW. I can understand him flying. We all have to fly to get to far off places but he has a massive house that uses tons of gas/electric to maintain and he has full secret service protection (he pays for it as do all ex VP's. Ex-presidents get it for free for life) that use up to 3 armored SUV's in convoy plus police escort. He could easily cancel his SS escorts. So yes he is a hypocrit.

And nearly everybody agress there is global warming. But when its still a 50/50 split on whether its natural or man made you cant expect everybody to jump on board with ideas that will cost billions of dollars. mostly paid by the middle/lower class in the form of taxes and higher costs for food/gas/utilties.

They say the ice cap is melting.. ya it has been for a few thousand years since the end of the ice age...tornado alley used to be covered in ice so I guess all those buffaloes passing gas melted it. There have been cold/warm periods all through the earths history. What makes this one any bigger?? We dont knwo what the actual temps were 1000 or even a few hundred years ago. not acurately to a scientific degree. What caused other ice ages to end?? there had to be warming of some sort back then. I know we add a ton of GH gases to the atmosphere but how much does it actually contribute and how much if any warmer does it make it over a natural warming cycle?? Nobody can answer that with any kind of certainty. And you expect me to struggle to pay all these higher costs on a theory by a guy will say anything to help his cause of environmentalism even when he wont cut back himself??? When he sells his huge power gobbling mansion and gives up his secret service convoy and drives a hybrid compact car himself then maybe some more people will take him seriously.

Well thought out post.

 

[Rocky Rascovich]

Ooops! Don't want to get off this exit. But I will kindly drop this link off as I drive by for Wednesday's chase: http://icecap.us/