Ditch Question...

[Rob Wadsworth]

Lets see...
Either ditch dive when a 'nader is coming at you - if no other means of escape are possible (driving away, no preplanned escape route, too much debris on road, etc..)
Or - take your chances in a snake pit or getting 'impaled' by 2x4's and steel pipes - or getting drowned in pooling water.

It looks as though the ditch dive concept was the least dangerous of the possibilities in question. Who's the genius that proposed that method? Was this concept based on the idea that it was the only alternative left if one found themselves in this predicament

But has anyone gone ditch diving to escape - or know anyone that did - and lived to tell about it?
Sure would like to hear their side of this deal...
Water Moccasins - Woww!

 

[Derek Mohr]

I'm with Rob, I don't think I've ever heard a successful ditch story yet, surely there has to be a chaser or two to try it

 

[rdale]

It looks as though the ditch dive concept was the least dangerous of the possibilities in question. Who's the genius that proposed that method?

That's the method that the National Weather Service advises... I can't believe they would repeat something over and over and over, literally for decades, without hard evidence. Every driver should get everyone out of their car and into a ditch as soon as they hear the warning issued. (Strangely enough, I've seen pictures of cars still driving in areas that have tornado warnings )

They aren't even suggesting it's an option, the warning text tells you to do it NOW:

IF IN MOBILE HOMES OR VEHICLES...EVACUATE THEM AND GET INSIDE A
SUBSTANTIAL SHELTER. IF NO SHELTER IS AVAILABLE...LIE FLAT IN THE
NEAREST DITCH OR OTHER LOW SPOT AND COVER YOUR HEAD WITH YOUR HANDS.

 

[Stephen Levine]

To ditch or not to ditch, that is the question

I have always had an awful sense of claustrophobia arise within me when thinking of bailing out in a ditch.
Not only the possibility of flash flooding and drainage, but also here in the south, the very real liklihood of fire ants as well.
It's been stated earlier in this thread: doing anything possible to stay safely away from a tornado, developing or not when chasing is the best safety bet.

One topic that hasn't been addressed here but is relevant is the issue of being stuck in rush hour traffic during the time of a developing twister, chasing or not.
This nearly happened in the late 1990's (I believe 1999) near Arlington/Ft. Worth, TX when a supercell & tornado that hit Ft.Worth continued east towards Arlington right during rush (slog) hour. (I considered chasing that storm, but due to the expected heavy traffic at that time of day and the 30 mile trip to get there I refrained.)
I think that this issue would merit discussion as well..

 

[Jason Foster]

More Research

I think with the ditch issue, it's a matter of velocity of the debris. As a few others mentioned early in the thread, that they have seen debris in the ditch, it likely only got there because it came to rest there. I'll bet it was mostly small debris as well. I think being in the ditch is good because you certainly won't survive standing up or event laying on the ground above a ditch.

It was also brought up that a bridge may be safe, if it is of the steel wide-flange beem style that has a small area to climb up into. However, I would slightly disagree, as after experiencing 140mph winds in Hurricane Charley, I did feel a "sucking" of the winds from my hiding spot. I could easily see this as a possiblity. However, I have not experienced the bridge situation (and don't plan on doing so), but I think that and the ditch questions is something that should be looked into further.

Maybe time to call the Univ. of Maryland wind tunnel lab about setting up a possible scale test.

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

I think with the ditch issue, it's a matter of velocity of the debris. As a few others mentioned early in the thread, that they have seen debris in the ditch, it likely only got there because it came to rest there. I'll bet it was mostly small debris as well. I think being in the ditch is good because you certainly won't survive standing up or event laying on the ground above a ditch.

It was also brought up that a bridge may be safe, if it is of the steel wide-flange beem style that has a small area to climb up into. However, I would slightly disagree, as after experiencing 140mph winds in Hurricane Charley, I did feel a "sucking" of the winds from my hiding spot. I could easily see this as a possiblity. However, I have not experienced the bridge situation (and don't plan on doing so), but I think that and the ditch questions is something that should be looked into further.

Maybe time to call the Univ. of Maryland wind tunnel lab about setting up a possible scale test.

WOULD high winds create enough turbulence in the ditch to suck someone clean out and back into high wind speeds and flying debris?
I suppose it would depend greatly on how close to the circulation and inflow jet one is while in the ditch. Relative position analysis and progression of storm movement would probably constantly change the dynamics of what is happening in the ditch.

The NWS had delivered this kind of safety solution some years ago - from what I can gather from other posts. Maybe your proposal to MSU may be submitted to the NWS when more details can be verified and substantiated. Those of us who spot AND chase would find these conclusions/find this info as live-saving.

I often question the viability of underpass protection - too. Is it a means to concentrate wind force or useful to avoid flying debris? It may be found to be useful in some situations - but detrimental if sustaining a direct blow - from what info I have gathered...

 

[Skip Talbot]

Provided that they aren't submerged, those drainage pipes that run under roads and connect ditches or allow streams to pass make good makeshift shelters. I've heard of people successfully taking shelter in them. They are a frequent occurence in some places, so if you have a few moments before the wedge hits, you might be able to find one in time.

 

[mike scantlin]

As a person who gets into the field often (eSpotter); I feel that the issue of ditch dynamics is an excellent subject of study.

 

[Gene Moore]

What bothers me about ditches is what's (almost) always above them, electrical lines. Imagine, you're safe and snug in your comfy ditch, the tornado approaches....Krrrrrack the poles begin to come down....and where do those steel cables go, right in your water filled ditch....Buzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

No ditch for me, I'll do what I've always done, run like hell....at right angles! Most tornadoes are 300 yards or less wide, most less. That means from the center line all you have to travel is 150 yards, 1 1/2 football fields in the "correct" direction.

 

[Amymarie]

Basically, from what I have read, a ditch is just a last resort. If the tornado moves over you, you are toast. I read a really good article a few years ago basically saying what others have said above. Moving away is the best alternative but difficult to mass communicate to the general public.

I have read several accounts of people surviving in ditches, but that doesn't mean they would not have survived being in a car, too. After seeing what the F4 did to cars near me, I can't say I would stay in a car! Hundreds of people survived above ground in reinforced bathrooms. Which leads me to a question.

Are these reinforced safe rooms safer than crawl spaces?

 

[Jason Foster]

How about some photos of ditches

What bothers me about ditches is what's (almost) always above them, electrical lines. Imagine, you're safe and snug in your comfy ditch, the tornado approaches....Krrrrrack the poles begin to come down....and where do those steel cables go, right in your water filled ditch....Buzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

No ditch for me, I'll do what I've always done, run like hell....at right angles! Most tornadoes are 300 yards or less wide, most less. That means from the center line all you have to travel is 150 yards, 1 1/2 football fields in the "correct" direction.

Now that's a good point. I think at this point, what should be done first...is to start documenting areas that would be a likely spot. For those in the plains...if your out in a area, especially along the interstate or major US route (like good old 287)...than grab a picture to share, then we can talk about specific ditches. Some better than others....better nearby shelter. Photos can really put more light on this subject

 

[Bill Tabor]

Can a tornado really travel 60 mph for a sustained distance? I'm sure that the business end of a twister has movement in various directions that could approximate that speed for short distances as it whips around searching for its common centre, but I find it difficult to grasp that the entire twister (and its attendant wall cloud) travels at 60 mph for a sustained distance . . . So I put the question to those of you who have more experience in the field, can a tornado keep pace with a car going 60?

I remember chasing the Texas Panhandle April 6th 2001. That day there were reports of supercells with brief touchdowns travelling 95 mph in Kansas. I seem to recall some storm speeds were over 100mph, but most in the Panhandle where I was at were 70+mph.

Storms moving that fast are very hard to deal with. Keep in mind the meso rotates within the storm and a tornadic circulation could actually have faster forward storm motion than it's parent supercell if it was on the forward flank of the rotation.

Beyond that and as far as ditches...I'd say know your storm and your options. It's true some of the smaller tornadoes can be dealt with in ideal conditions, but make that tornado larger - say 1/2 mile or even Greensburg like 2 miles - and factor in stronger torns EF3+, now make it night, or very low cloud bases, lcls, fog, or night, then throw in some trees, and maybe some hills / mountains - and you have some real issues.

Basically when you get caught, you do what you can - options are often limited at that time. You're probably operating on instinct survival, or just scared out of your mind. Hopefully when the **** hits the fan...you make it a point to shake yourself and keep your wits about you and logically choose the best option based on the cards you are dealt at the time.

I always thought it would be possible and even cool to run from a tornado if I had to in order to clear the path. This may be possible under certain ideal situations, but now that I've been closer to some stronger circulations I see that this wouldn't be that much fun. Tornadoes up close are immense, and massively, indescribably strong. There are huge storm scale forces operating around them and through them. This may include giant hail or debris like small rocks hurled at fantastic speeds making them sound like rifle shots...RFD or inflow jet winds may be very difficult to run in. Still, I think I'd do what I could. Ditches aren't a great option they are just kind of one option when all else fails. I would drive away any day if possible. If I am then trapped and there is nearby strong shelter such as a house I'd get inside there quick. If I thought I had a handle on the tornado path and believed I could run out of the path of the circulation I'd at least make the effort with the above exceptions of the tornado already so close that giant hail and debris hurled would stop me. At that point it is the overpass, stay in the vehicle or the ditch - or some combination. You could put your vehicle in a deep ditch, or jam it under an overpass. If the girders underneath were the right type I might try and climb up. If the wall to the over pass was too high to scale would I hit the ditch or stay in the car? Well, actually I was in a similar situation once in Kansas where I stayed in the car as a tornado passed nearby - supposedly 100 yards from our location according to later reports others told me. At the time I was unaware I might have been in the path of a tornado until I got a radar update and realized where I was. The storm, wind, and rain was just going crazy at the time. I was happy to stay in the vehicle where I was dry. I didn't feel all that safe at the time, I was just hoping for no direct hit. I don't think I would have run out from under the over pass in the dark, and extreme wind and rain / lightning just to get in a ditch. I agree with others...I'd have a hard time talking myself into leaving a vehicle. I would maybe consider a ditch dive under dry conditions with no snakes during daylight with perhaps a deep ditch or better yet one of those large pipes. I do recall and account of a guy May 3rd 99 who climbed into one of those pipes. He thought it was a good idea at the time, but he said he nearly got sucked out of it by the immense forces of the tornado. Plus it was sucking debris (meaning rocks) right through the pipe and into him.

 

[Shane Adams]

Gene brought up the most valid point (IMO) of this issue: most tornadoes are less than 300 yards wide.

The problem is people tend to run away from tornadoes (but stay in the track path) instead of using a little common sense and running either at them or away from them at a right angle. If you can't run a few hundred yards when your life depends on it, then you have bigger problems than just a tornado.

Even the most powerful tornadoes only have a maximum damage swath that's maybe 5% of their total coverage area; tornadoes are laregly on the weaker end of the scale, even the violent ones (for the majority of their damage). If you simply take a few seconds to analyze your position relative to the tornado, its movement towards you, and your immediate surroundings, it's fairly easy to escape.

In most cases where a person is caught in the open by a tornado, I'd imagine the problem is they allow the tornado to get too close before taking action; knowing that you can easily run away from a tornado's path doesn't occur to them either because of ignorance or panic. Best advice is to avoid getting into this situation in the first place, which is simple if you pay attention to the weather.

 

[Stephen Locke]

Good thing most people ignore the conventional advice of abandoning your vehicle for the ditch. On 9/12/08 Kansas City was tornado warned during rush hour traffic. This was also an HP event. Sirens blaring, slippery roads, bad visibility, everyone hitting the brakes and getting out grabbing the kids and running around on I-435? Imagine the chaos. Imagine the mess.

 

[Kem Poyner]

I know some have heard my story before, but I will give a sample as it pertains to this topic: A few years ago I was near Shamrock TX. It was well after dark (dumb move #1) I knew from my radio a tornado was heading towards me following I 40 tracking straight East just off the Noth side of the highway. I was parked on the side service road at the intersection that crosses over top the Lela overpass. I was standing outside the car with my keys in my pocket (dumb move #2) Suddenly lightning lite the night sky to show a classic looking cone tornado. All was dark again and I assumed the tornado would continue its current path. (dumb move #3) in reality the tornado jogged due south and crossed I 40 to its south side. Like an idiot Im waiting for the next flash thinking it would pass just north of me. Well my friends. it suddley was coming down the opposite slope of the highway heading right at me. It was filled with large awnings and sheetmetal from the gas station it just destroyed. I had 3 options..try and dig the keys out of my pocket and jump in to my truck,start it and get out of the way..not enough time. Second choice was to lay down in a dip that was a poor excuse for a ditch and would propably have my truck on top of me. Last choice was to run like hell through waist high weeds and beet the tornado to the overpass...my legs started rumming before my mind had decided what to do. It was like they had a mind of thier own. I layed on the ground just beside the overpass about half way down the grassy hill. I had my back against the concrete wall and held onto a piece of conduit that God seemed to place right were an idiot might find himself. I DID NOT GET UNDER THE OVERPASS. Laid in the grass just above the opening. The tornado crossed I40 south to north ontop of the overpass as if it was a car! only a small concrete wall seperated us. even still the wind roaring under the underpass below my feet sounded supersonic with sheet metal flying through. It would have cut me to ribbons. I recieved minor injuries. My truck ended up facing nose down in the little ditch. All windows were gone and it had the hell beat out of it by rocks and tree branches. The tornado got an F2 rating later (tornado was studied greatly by Howard Bluiestine) If it had been stronger, i could not have held on. Oh yeah, I video taped the whole thing!