Ditch Question...

[Terry Tyler]

I have heard the right angle theory, but I am not sure I understand the logic or the path. Do you estimate the path of the tornado & drive at a right angle off this "line"?

i havent ever heard of this theory, but i will say this...with varying storm motions on different days, you cant make a genralization that all storms will travel, and your particular location is relevant in such a scenario...

assuming its night time, and in a region that your not used to driving in...winding roads, no visibility with the tornado supposed to be right on top of you...even the most skilled and experienced chasers would not want to be in such a spot with no information on motion or exact location...if i was you, i wouldnt use that in real life...

one word on ditches here in the south, they are real bastards...ive accidentally backed my truck out in one, and fell down about 10'-12'...its very popular out here to have a stretch of roadway, and on either side of the road, a very long and deep trench...houses and driveways usually have a large pipe, or drain that water can go through, and its like a tunnel that goes and continues all the way down the road...i always told my family, if a tornado was coming for them to run outside and dive down in the ditch...that ditch is also like a creek and goes about 20 feet down and is overgrown with reeds and cudzoo...probably snake infested and full of spiders and god knows what else, but in that situation at that time, it would beat the alternative...

 

[Chad Cowan]

Actually, I was watching a tornado recap on Discovery and two chasers actually drove through an EF3 without being thrown to the side...so I might actually choose the car, granted I know the direction it's traveling.

Did you forget the smiley face or are you serious? Those were the Severe Studio guys and it was NOT an EF3 when it hit them. It was either a 0 or 1 when it hit them (in case you couldn't tell, they yell they are in a tornado about 30 times) and it still spins the car sideways.

 

[Derek Mohr]

No this was not the same TV show, I know exactly the episode your talking about and this wasn't Shawn and his team...in fact the program didnt mention their names, plus it was a short clip shot through a home video camera, my friend Kurt Hulst had footage on the same program to be honest.

 

[Stephen Locke]

. . . seek shelter in a safe place. If that's not possible then driving away might be preferable . . .

The other conventional wisdom spread by authorities is don't try to out-run it in a vehicle. This is standard procedure for many chasers, no? I've always been mystified by this video. Why did they stop? Not accounting for lost frames due to editing I count at least 30 seconds between the time they stop and the moment of impact. I don't believe a tornado travels faster than a modern car at full throttle. I don't think that tornado was catching them, I think they panicked and stopped. If an impact is eminent ditch diving sounds instinctive but in this case I don't think the impact was eminent. So, for you guys and gals who intentionally or inadvertently cut it close, who wins a drag race, your chase vehicle or a tornado?

 

[Skip Talbot]

The other conventional wisdom spread by authorities is don't try to out-run it in a vehicle. This is standard procedure for many chasers, no?

That's because the clueless public is going to panic and make bad decisions putting themselves and others into even more danger. As a chaser you should be comfortable manuevering in and out of storms and be able to make educated and responsibile decisions when you inadvertantly find yourself in the path.

 

[Paul Hadfield]

I just wonder if the statement is meant as a type of false comfort and nothing more... kind of like the cold war "fallout shelter" signs that used to adorn buildings that would've offered no protection from radioactive debris.

 

[John Farley]

Research by Thomas Schmidlin of Kent State University[FONT=&quot] and that of others suggests that vehicles may be safer than outdoor locations such as ditches, and Schmidlin also notes there is no research supporting the idea that a ditch is safer than a vehicle. Schmidlin reached the conclusion that vehicles are likely safer than ditches based both on wind-tunnel studies and site surveys of locations where tornadoes have occurred. In most cases, vehicles will not be tipped by tornadoes rated less than F3 on the original Fujita scale (though occasionally they can be), and there are multiple cases of people getting in ditches and being killed by large objects that landed on them. In fairness, there are also cases where people have been killed in vehicles, but the advantage of a vehicle is that it is mobile and can often be driven out of the path of a tornado, or to a location where the occupants can safely shelter in a building. (Actually, the greatest danger in a vehicle is probably not rollover, but rather falling limbs or flying debris crushing or penetrating the vehicle. But at least in this case, you have more protection than you would outside.)

A couple years ago, as a part of one of my final research projects before I retired after a career as a sociology professor, I interviewed a number of Warning Coordination Meteorologists about this issue. Most were aware of Schmidlin's research and the related debates, and they expressed a variety of viewpoints. A common one was that what is the safest action varies by location and time of day - if a tornado is visible, traffic is light, and the option exists, just drive out of the path. But if it is night, a wooded area, or the tornado is rain-wrapped, driving out of the path is not an option. Hence, several of the WCM.s favored different recommendations for different parts of the country (open, flat terrain vs. hilly and wooded) and day vs. night. They, and I, think it is time for the NWS to reconsider its blanket recommendation to get in the ditch rather than driving away if the option of inside shelter is not available.

References to Schmidlin's research:

[/FONT] Schmidlin, Thomas. 1997. “Closet, Car, or Ditch? The Mobile Home Dilemma During a Tornado.” Natural Hazards Observer 22: 1-3.
Schmidlin, Thomas, Barbara Hammer, Paul King, Yuichi Ono, L. Scott Miller, and Gregory Thumann. 2002. “Unsafe at Any (Wind) Speed? Testing the Stability of Motor Vehicles in Severe Winds.” Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society 83: 1821-1830.

My paper:

Farley, John E. 2007. "Call to Action Statements in Tornado Warnings: Do They Reflect Recent Developments in Tornado-Safety Research?" International Journal of Mass Emergencies and Disasters 25: 1-36.

 

[Stephen Locke]

I've always been mystified by this video. Why did they stop? Not accounting for lost frames due to editing I count at least 30 seconds between the time they stop and the moment of impact. So what is the forward travelling speed of a tornado and how does that compare to the speed of a chase (escape) vehicle. (assuming the road ahead is reasonably clear of hazards)

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

I've always been mystified by this video. Why did they stop? Not accounting for lost frames due to editing I count at least 30 seconds between the time they stop and the moment of impact. So what is the forward travelling speed of a tornado and how does that compare to the speed of a chase (escape) vehicle. (assuming the road ahead is reasonably clear of hazards)

OK... I'll bite.
Yes; these two guys were allowing themselves to be bait for a video. How much do you think these guys have made on this video? I'd seen it about the same time that it came out on a PBS network several years ago - which also showed the Andover KS/AFB footage as well.

Yes; they could have easily outrun that twister. It is evident from the video that they were traveling no faster the 25 mph as I can reckon. The 'dramatics' of their voice scripting led the viewing audience to believe that they weren't escaping that terrible twister. Very dramatic; but truly scripted for effect - IMHO.

Near Hoxie KS on the 22nd/May of this year, myself and two other chaser tried to keep up with a meso on the ground that was traveling at least 60 mph+ in a due N direction. If that twister was behind me on that dirt road - I would be dead right now. Instead, it paralleled the road and traveled so fast that the three vehicles trying to keep up with it became impossible on that pothole-infested muddy road twards Selden KS (I believe Gene Moore was in one of those cars; I lost the lead pos after my windshield became too caked with mud to continue).

It's the difference of a tornado traveling at 25 mph (common) to a tornado traveling at 60 mph+ (uncommon) and a couple of guys who figured a way to make it more marketable by a change in the dialog. The shots of them under the overpass is what really makes it a classic video - IMHO. Yes, that's a tongue-n-cheek guess! You'll notice that they did get ahead of the twister in time to be able to 'get up underneath the girders' and get hit by the outer circulation of a EF2~3 and keep the camera running. They could have just as easily outran the twister on that paved highway; but it appears they chose not to.
So yes, I agree with your point - I believe...

BTW - I wonder how much those guys made off of that footage?
They are still getting a lot of mileage out of it!!

 

[Stephen Locke]

tornado forward progress

Can a tornado really travel 60 mph for a sustained distance? I'm sure that the business end of a twister has movement in various directions that could approximate that speed for short distances as it whips around searching for its common centre, but I find it difficult to grasp that the entire twister (and its attendant wall cloud) travels at 60 mph for a sustained distance . . . So I put the question to those of you who have more experience in the field, can a tornado keep pace with a car going 60?

 

[mikegeukes]

The famous Tri-State F-5 tornado of 1925
Path Length: 219 mikes
Average Speed: 62 mph
Fastest Speed of Movement between Gorham & Murphysboro: 73 mph
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/pah/1925/ss_body.php

I been on the Kansas Turnpike a few times, I notice there are very few exits.

Mike
http://geukesweather.blogspot.com

 

[Wes Carter]

Can a tornado really travel 60 mph for a sustained distance? I'm sure that the business end of a twister has movement in various directions that could approximate that speed for short distances as it whips around searching for its common centre, but I find it difficult to grasp that the entire twister (and its attendant wall cloud) travels at 60 mph for a sustained distance . . . So I put the question to those of you who have more experience in the field, can a tornado keep pace with a car going 60?

I'm not sure if this really answers your question because I don't feel it does 100% but it is food for thought. On April 11 of this year I tried to chase the tornado that touched down in Lawrenceburg, TN and finished up in Warren County, TN. I was running 70MPH on SR64 running ALMOST parallel to the tornado and it was outpacing me for about 8-10 miles. I did get held up by traffic several times. But in a most non-scientific manner I'd estimate it was moving about 50MPH sustained.

 

[Laura Duchesne]

I wouldn't feel comfortable taking cover in a ditch. As others have stated, debris can collect in there. Also, we cannot rule out flash flooding as well.

On May 26th this year near Pratt, when we took that direct hit by a weak tornado, I personally believe the vehicle protected us from the flying pebbles, stones, tumbleweeds and lots of dirt. I think if we were standing outside when that hit, we've be plucking dirt out of our skin for days. If a weak tornado can sandblast a windshield no problem, imagine what it can do to your skin, yeeesh.

 

[Bart_Comstock]

I have always thought the idea was that the ditch would need to be a very narrow, with little to non flooding occurring in it (duh) and to distance your self from your vehicle to prevent from being smashed by it and to get as low bellow the "grass line" as possible. if the ditch was too shallow or too wide you would become exposed to the winds and flying (not landing) debris.

 

[Lanny Dean]

OK... I'll bite.
Yes; these two guys were allowing themselves to be bait for a video. How much do you think these guys have made on this video? I'd seen it about the same time that it came out on a PBS network several years ago - which also showed the Andover KS/AFB footage as well.

Yes; they could have easily outrun that twister. It is evident from the video that they were traveling no faster the 25 mph as I can reckon. The 'dramatics' of their voice scripting led the viewing audience to believe that they weren't escaping that terrible twister. Very dramatic; but truly scripted for effect - IMHO.

Near Hoxie KS on the 22nd of this year, myself and two other chaser tried to keep up with a meso on the ground that was traveling at least 60 mph+ in a due N direction. If that twister was behind me on that dirt road - I would be dead right now. Instead, it paralleled the road and traveled so fast that the three vehicles trying to keep up with it became impossible on that pothole-infested muddy road twards Selden KS ( I believe Gene Moore was in one of those cars; I lost the lead pos after my windshield became too caked with mud to continue).

It's the difference of a tornado traveling at 25 mph (common) to a tornado traveling at 60 mph+ (uncommon) and a couple of guys who figured a way to make it more marketable by a change in the dialog. The shots of them under the overpass is what really makes it a classic video - IMHO. Yes, that's a tongue-n-cheek guess! You'll notice that they did get ahead of the twister in time to be able to 'get up underneath the girders' and get hit by the outer circulation of a EF2~3 and keep the camera running. They could have just as easily outran the twister on that paved highway; but it appears they chose not to.
So yes, I agree with your point - I believe...

BTW - I wonder how much those guys made off of that footage?
Heck, they are still getting a lot of mileage out of it!!

These guys made no money off the video....they both worked for a tv station in Wichita KS (KSNW). All said video was/is owned by the station.
They did however, receive an emmy for that work.
obviously the reason we see this video on just about every tornado docu/drama is because the networks picked it up and ran with it.
A common myth is that these guys were chasers, this could not be farther from the truth...one was a reporter and the other, an in house photographer coming back to Wichita from covering an unrealated story. Both of which are very nice guys who just happened to be in the right/wrong place, depending on how you want to look at it.

As far as the Hoxie event, the other vehical was Randy Hicks and Lisa M.
I of course, had a tour and was pretty far behind you guys.