Ditch Question...

[Penny Lehner]

Now that is a video I would love to see! I would have died of a heartattack!

No ditches for me. If out running it wasn't an option and no shelter were to be found, I would cram myself up under the dash as far as I could go and start praying.

And I would like to say more but the 2 idiots (one of them being my other half) have decided to plow my driveway even though it is 2 am and it is still snowing about an inch an hour. (Bud Light and a snowplow is not a good mix. )

 

[Jason Harris]

Rivetting story there Kem, is your video available? posted online? Did you keep your eyes open the whole time? could you hear the sounds of debris hitting things?did you get anymore lightning to reveal what was going on?

 

[Jason Boggs]

I think at this point, what should be done first...is to start documenting areas that would be a likely spot. For those in the plains...if your out in a area, especially along the interstate or major US route (like good old 287)...than grab a picture to share, then we can talk about specific ditches. Some better than others....better nearby shelter. Photos can really put more light on this subject

If caught SE of Amarillo, I know of a really big ditch to take shelter in.

 

[Christel Danning]

...If you simply take a few seconds to analyze your position relative to the tornado, its movement towards you, and your immediate surroundings, it's fairly easy to escape...

... Best advice is to avoid getting into this situation in the first place, which is simple if you pay attention to the weather.

Too true - My experience occured this spring, when a tor-warned cell was traveling along the county lines and covered heavily on the news. Watching the radar on my laptop, I projected the path farther than the newscasters, and we decided to bail while we still had time as we lived just south of Tarrant County by about 4 miles. As the storm was traveling west to east, we grabbed dogs, said goodbye to the horses and cats, and went north, to N Fort Worth, up I35. The view of the lightning to the west was fantastic! Picked up radar there at my other half's work, then when the coast was clear, came back home. The tornado hit 2.5 miles from our home (as the crow flies) in Crowley, and was later rated F3. I was frightened, and of course with the lack of damage at our home we saw with hindsight that we didn't need to run, but you never can tell. This storm had been jumping north and south over the county lines, and there was simply too much of a gamble not to run. We have ditches here, but in a heavy rain they get badly flooded - same as the low creek area (filled with trees) behind our home. Turns out that there was heavy flooding from this storm, so the ditches would have been a big mistake. Oh, and thank you for the insight, Bill - there is a giant concrete pipe in the property across from us, and I had always thought that in a pinch I could hide in it - now I know better!

 

[Ryan McGinnis]

I get the impression that the ditch thing is literally a "last ditch" thing. As in you're in the middle of nowhere near no structures and in your car, and are 15 seconds from being reduced to a wet spot inside a crumpled metal ball. So you jump in a ditch and pray that the debris don't do anything more than take a few soft bits off your head. But just about anything is better than a ditch... anything but a car.

Of course, if you can outrun the tornado somehow, getting out of the car is probably not the best play. I'll take a 25% chance of getting caught by a tornado in my car over a 100% chance of getting caught by a tornado in a ditch any day.

 

[Ryan McGinnis]

I just wonder if the statement is meant as a type of false comfort and nothing more... kind of like the cold war "fallout shelter" signs that used to adorn buildings that would've offered no protection from radioactive debris.

Not to threadjack, but actually, the basements of buildings marked with fallout shelter signs would have offered protection from gamma radiation -- that's why they were designated fallout shelters. They wouldn't have helped too much with blast damage or in any resulting incendiary firestorm, but they weren't usually billed as a protection against that. And many places didn't need protection for that. Most of the small towns in Nebraska, for example, are not nuclear targets; however, because of the vast field of missiles buried at the intersection of the Colorado/Wyoming/Nebraska panhandle, any strategic exchange with Russia would result in radiation levels across all of Nebraska and much Iowa, Kansas and South Dakota that would be impossible to survive even for half an hour without being in a shelter. Then after a few weeks, you would crawl out, marvel at all the mostly undecomposed dead stuff laying around everywhere, and exclaim "thanks, government, for having the foresight to direct me to a fallout shelter so that I can experience the terrible unraveling of civilization firsthand!"

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

I get the impression .....Of course, if you can outrun the tornado somehow, getting out of the car is probably not the best play. I'll take a 25% chance of getting caught by a tornado in my car over a 100% chance of getting caught by a tornado in a ditch any day.

I'd buy that. So long as the road options are in your favor. But isn't this a dreaded 'hypothetical'? Getting really close for that 'money shot' and not having an escape route already in mind is just too risky. Then, there is the dreaded satellite that can drop in one's lap (eg 'Quinter').
Having a ditch as a 'last ditch' option means that is all there is left before becoming airborne.

BTW-A ditch filled with water is a factor that I'd seen this season S of Spencer IA. A home was just hit and I asked the owner how deep was the water in 'that ditch' before the tube took out everything she owned - except the house (freaky how that can happen). She told me that there wasn't any in that ditch; she had to turn around and look and was surprised to see three feet in it. Wide - too. I would hate to jump in that ditch...

Road options can change in moments after the rain and hail change conditions. I'd really like to see some classic cyclic supercells this year without so much water (sigh).

 

[Travis W Speakman]

It was also brought up that a bridge may be safe, if it is of the steel wide-flange beem style that has a small area to climb up into. However, I would slightly disagree, as after experiencing 140mph winds in Hurricane Charley, I did feel a "sucking" of the winds from my hiding spot. I could easily see this as a possiblity.

I could definitely see stronger winds causing a Venturi type effect if you were up in the girder space created by a steel I beam bridge. However, that said, I wonder how strong those winds would have to be to suck an ave 180lbs human from the space created. There would obviously have to be several factors taken into consideration, ie...space between the girders, depth of the girder space, width of the bridge and number of girders, speed of the wind, and force of the Venturi effect on you. I guess a math major could run some hypothetics..it would be really interesting to see what the outcome would be.

As far as a bridge with no girder space, I would definitely NOT consider that an option as straight line winds and the amplification of speed due to compression and debris would be a huge factor contributing to injury.

And the subject matter, the ditch. Well...I wonder how that ever became advise myself. I completely agree with Shane, you really shouldn't get yourself in that situation in the first place. If you're trained up on storm anatomy, watch the dynamics, and look at the conditions around you, you should be able to make an educated decision as to which situations you would chase in and which you wouldn't. It's simple risk management; does the risk outweigh the benefit of getting in there and getting the shot? Me...I enjoy living too much to take some chances...

 

[Paul Austin]

And the subject matter, the ditch. Well...I wonder how that ever became advise myself. I completely agree with Shane, you really shouldn't get yourself in that situation in the first place. If you're trained up on storm anatomy, watch the dynamics, and look at the conditions around you, you should be able to make an educated decision as to which situations you would chase in and which you wouldn't. It's simple risk management; does the risk outweigh the benefit of getting in there and getting the shot? Me...I enjoy living too much to take some chances...

Bear in mind, the text of the warnings are written to the untrained public that doesn't know the difference between a mamatus cloud and a tornado. The public can't be expected to determine the direction of an approaching tornado, especially in low vis situations. How many youtube videos have you seen where someone yells "it's coming right at us!" only to watch the tornado pass at least a mile away. I agree, however, it should be an absolute last ditch decision. Especially if caught truly out in the open with no protective structure or even a vehicle to flee in. I cannot envision myself taking the ditch option if I'm in a vehicle on a drivable road (not stuck in mud, bogged down in traffic, etc.). But the text is not written as if to a storm chaser with storm structure and behavior knowledge and experience, or even near-real-time radar data.

The water situation has always been the big deterent for myself, but I hadn't thought of the power line question. Perhaps a depression away from the road would be more suitable.

 

[Paul Austin]

Gene brought up the most valid point (IMO) of this issue: most tornadoes are less than 300 yards wide.

The problem is people tend to run away from tornadoes (but stay in the track path) instead of using a little common sense and running either at them or away from them at a right angle. If you can't run a few hundred yards when your life depends on it, then you have bigger problems than just a tornado.

Even the most powerful tornadoes only have a maximum damage swath that's maybe 5% of their total coverage area; tornadoes are laregly on the weaker end of the scale, even the violent ones (for the majority of their damage). If you simply take a few seconds to analyze your position relative to the tornado, its movement towards you, and your immediate surroundings, it's fairly easy to escape.

This is true of the vast majority of tornadoes. A notable exception: the May 4th 2007 Greensburg wedge spent quite a bit of time crossing 183 due to its angle of attack at the time. It was in the process of turning toward the north so that it tracked over the highway for quite some distance. Of course, this is quite the notable exception. I don't know the actual path width across the highway (perhaps Umsheid could shed some light here), but I would guess it was reasonably at least twice the tornado's width. Your point about not getting into the situation in the first place is well taken. Having a viable escape plan (other than just turning around or backing up) is just wise practice.

 

[Paul Austin]

Not to threadjack, but Kem, we were very near your position on the same storm but bailed for lack of data and no visibility. I believe it was May 15, 2003? We raced back to Shamrock and filmed a stout cone to the north immediately after the Lela event...all of two lightning flashes, LOL. I would love to see your footage. Is it available in some form?

Unfortunately, we missed all the fun daytime show earlier that day as we were traveling from Tyler, TX that morning.

 

[John Farley]

Maybe time to call the Univ. of Maryland wind tunnel lab about setting up a possible scale test.

There HAVE been some wind-tunnel tests - not of what happens if you get in a ditch, but of what it takes to tip a vehicle. Some of them are described in papers by Schmidlin that I cited in my earlier post. It takes a pretty strong tornado, usually, to tip or significantly move a car - usually more than F2 on the old Fujita scale, as I recall.

As I said in the earlier post, I have seen NO study showing that a ditch or other outdoor location is safer than a car, and some that say the opposite. Of course, sturdy shelter is best, but if the choice is to drive out of the path or jump in the ditch, I think it is a no-brainer to drive out of the path, if you can see the tornado and judge the approximate path (i.e. daytime, good visibility, not loads of trees and hills). If such good visibility is not the case, you probably can't tell how close the tornado is, so just get in sturdy shelter ASAP.

 

[Brian Stertz]

Flooded ditches made Jeff's and my decision to run to a "nearby" farmhouse an immediate one on 9/22/01. Gene's mention of the power line hazards is pretty sound concern. The rural highway we were on was this type of setup with the powerlines directly above the water filled ditches. The situation was fluky enough as it was...and could have been much worse in the outcome. Seconds do save lives when having to make THE decision with a half mile wide tornado bearing down on you.

 

[Travis W Speakman]

Bear in mind, the text of the warnings are written to the untrained public that doesn't know the difference between a mamatus cloud and a tornado.

Yeah...you're right, I kind of got a little off direction. I guess it's no different than the new CPR guidelines..."respirations are no longer necessary as compressions can do all the work." Again, that's written for the lay public who wouldn't have the equipment or knowledge (or desire, for that matter) to actually DO CPR. You do really have to serve the public when it comes to things like that.