County Officials Critical of Storm Chasers

[Chris Novy]

Well to be fair, some of that criticism, even from me, has come from him having video of certain things, and taking them way out of context to prove some sort of point in his presentations, as well as begging chasers for video for those presentations, only to turn around and use it against them, and even, at least in my case, used some of my video without my permission. Then he turned around and did some of the things he preached against. So at least in that case, it was more than just him calling out some bad behavior that brought that criticism on.

David:

The video I use in my talks is what it is --it shows what it shows. When a string of vehicles all with flashing lights drives down a dark Oklahoma road at night and I comment that the use of lights is "unnecessary, counterproductive, and even dangerous" I'm not saying anything which isn't obvious. And if certain well-known chaser's vehicles happen to appear in that video well I'm sorry. I'm not twisting the truth or using anything out of context. When I show video of a kid in the Camaro driving 120 MPH to catch a tornado and comment about how irresponsible this is what other conclusion could any reasonable person come to? The video David speaks of me using without his permission was indeed used with his permission though he does not remember it. I agreed to stop using it as soon as he requested me to do so. I don't solicit chaser video any more. It's become too much of a hassle and with hundreds of people on YouTube willing to let me use their stuff catch-free I find it a lot easier to "shop online" for what I need in my talks. Addressing David's other point, I took a lot of heat for getting too close to a rain-wrapped tornado last year. I freely admitted that I screwed up, explained what I thought was happening and how I got caught off guard, and shared my tale as a learning experience. Yet I was labeled as a hypocrite because somehow I am supposed to be perfect and never make mistakes. There's a big difference between endangering your own life and doing something which risks the lives of others.

As Rob Hurkes pointed out people don't like to take criticism. Folks slammed me for going after the sacred cow (TIV) when they recklessly drove down the highway the wrong way. They said "how dare you risk Sean's funding" and "it's none of your business what other people do". Yet when Andy got killed by a driver doing essentially the same thing there was outrage. Mike Smith and others are correct that everyone has a right to be out there and that LEO can only enforce laws that are on the books. That said, it's up to all of us to police ourselves and sometimes that means documenting and reporting unsafe behavior. You are not a rat when you report something which may save someone's life. I honestly think we'd get more mileage from a web site where people could post video clips of "stupid chaser tricks" or a "wall of shame" than trying to form a professional organization. Unfortunately there would be dozens of "professional" chasers (read as they make money from chasing) hiring lawyers to shut down the web site because it defames their clients. So in the end there's probably nothing anyone can do about the problem.

..Chris..

 

[Andy Jackson]

I honestly think we'd get more mileage from a web site where people could post video clips of "stupid chaser tricks" or a "wall of shame" than trying to form a professional organization. Unfortunately there would be dozens of "professional" chasers (read as they make money from chasing) hiring lawyers to shut down the web site because it defames their clients. So in the end there's probably nothing anyone can do about the problem.

..Chris..

You would be on there as well.

 

[Mike Smith]

Sheriff somewhere is going to get PO'd enough to prove it, and then we will really see whining on this forum about the bad ass locals picking on the poor defenseless chasers...........why not just try to avoid the problem altogether and make an effort to get along with local Sheriffs etc.?? What is so hard to grasp about that? Folks like me all over Kansas would have had a completely different view of this if instead of jumping all over the guys in Dickinson county, a chaser would have come on TV and said "hey, I see there is a problem, we ought to try to figure a way around it".

Brian, let me see if I can assist a bit. Would you mind identifying your location and position? That way, we'd understand a bit better where you are coming from.

Next, you say, "Some sheriff somewhere is going to get PO'd enough to prove it." You seem to be advocating/rationalizing that type of unethical behavior, or at least that is how it is coming across. How many times do we have to say it? By all means, ticket speeders, illegal U-turns, etc., etc. You have plenty of tools for that. But "going after" chasers is unethical for both law enforcement and judges. It is also illegal under the Constitution (singling out people would be a Bill of Attainder which is expressly forbidden). The law is to be applied evenly. Chasing is a completely legal behavior.

Those us who live in larger cities hear, "the roads were clogged" go, "so what?" Rock Rd. in Wichita is virtually impassible at rush hour daily and Saturday's around noon. It somethings takes 15 min. to go 20 blocks (no kidding). So, I don't see the problem you apparently see if a road is clogged if everyone is behaving legally. It is just heavy traffic. It matters not if the heavy traffic is chasers or shoppers at Wichita's Bradley Fair.

You accuse of us being "dense" then you say we should cooperate with law enforcement. Do you know many times I've personally briefed law enforcement and emergency management officials? Easily in the dozens of times. I have emergency management as clients, including here in Kansas. I have a meeting with another Kansas EM tomorrow afternoon. I like them and get along well with them because there is mutual respect.

I suggested that (perhaps through local C of C's) we sit down and talk about this issue. You completely ignored the suggestion. Before you make further accusations ("dense"), may I suggest you reconsider aspects of your position?

 

[Mike Peregrine]

I don't see the problem you apparently see if a road is clogged if everyone is behaving legally. It is just heavy traffic. It matters not if the heavy traffic is chasers or shoppers at Wichita's Bradley Fair.

Yeah, but the traffic around Bradley Fair does not often have an EF-4 tornado and grapefruit sized hail factored into the mix.

In 1985, there were maybe ten storm chasers in the world ... ten.

By 1995 (ten years later), there were probably upwards of 100-200 or so.

In 2005, that number rose to somewhere between one and two THOUSAND.

Now in 2012, in Stormtrack alone there are 4,387 members interested enough in chasing to pay attention to it, and probably participate at one time or another (and there are plenty of chasers who are NOT members of Stormtrack, that's for sure).

It is true that U.S. 40 through New Cambria, Kansas is a public highway and my driver's license gives me the privilege of driving on it. Was it designed to support a thousand vehicles, buses of tourists, DOWs, chase teams, media crews, school teams, law enforcement vehicles, firetrucks, and ambulances all at the same time during a tornado emergency?

It is completely true that it is legal for people to drive around storms if they want. I can even say that I chased a tornado as a kid with my dad and grandmother in 1974! If anyone has strong memories attached to doing this, it is me. The question really isn't about my right to do it, though, or the fact that it is my most beloved hobby. It's really just the fact that it is now putting ordinary people at risk. People who don't know how to maneuver around storms, people in their homes who don't understand what is happening, and people who hope they can get help if and when they really need it.

The question is not about the right to chase storms ... the question is "is chasing storms still the right thing to do?"

That's what I've struggled with over the past three years. And I am honestly struggling to find a reason to justify it at this point. I mean the first rule of being a doctor is to "do no harm." And yet chasers, who have historically been good examples of upholding the warning process, are now in the unfortunate position of potentially causing more harm to come as the result of just being in the neighborhood while an ambulance is scrambling to take advantage of every precious second to reach an elderly couple trapped in a basement. The potential for harm is very real, otherwise this discussion would never exist in the first place.

 

[rdale]

unfortunate position of potentially causing more harm to come as the result of just being in the neighborhood while an ambulance is scrambling to take advantage of every precious second to reach an elderly couple trapped in a basement.

Maybe I'm not understanding your comment - but if you are in the road when an ambulance is behind you, why wouldn't you pull to the side? That's the law in every state as far as I know. Does being a chaser negate the need to get out of the way? If you are so close to the stopped car in front of you that you can't pull over, you are too close.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

I'm not saying everyone should adopt my thinking on this ... I'm just saying this is what I'm personally having trouble with. The rural roads and the rural responders where chasers are on storms are not designed to accommodate all of the vehicles simultaneously with the emergency vehicles. In the city where I live, the responders are used to dealing with crazy traffic. But that isn't the case out in the country.

On my own, I can and will pull over ... but now we're talking about getting all of THIS to get out of the way:

In a place where responders and citizens are accustomed to dealing with this:

(Top image credit: Chris Collura)

 

[rdale]

On my own, I can and will pull over ... but now we're talking about getting all of THIS to get out of the way:

Honestly I don't see why each and every car couldn't (and wouldn't) pull to the side. No issue at all. Now if there was a ditch right alongside with 6ft drops - that might be another story. I'm not in KS chasing as much as you so I'll take your word on it if that is a major issue. But the picture you showed could be cleared within seconds if everyone moves to the right when the see/hear the medic unit. End of story.

 

[Marcus Diaz]

The only reason I'm picky about where I pull over is because I'm in a 4 door FWD car. So even some wet grass in the shoulder can get me stuck. So I'm always looking for small side roads or field entrances to pull over in. But for the most part, I'm usually pretty comfortable pulling off in a ditch where I know I can get out fairly easy. If nothing is available for me, I just keep advancing towards the storm, deeper into the bear's cage, until something becomes available.

 

[Mike Peregrine]

Rob, when you discover a way to influence the thinking of a mix of a thousand souls simultaneously into doing what you want them to do in the middle of a crisis situation, maybe then the story will be over. Until then, this book is still very much in the middle of being written.

 

[Adam Simone]

Those us who live in larger cities hear, "the roads were clogged" go, "so what?" Rock Rd. in Wichita is virtually impassible at rush hour daily and Saturday's around noon. It somethings takes 15 min. to go 20 blocks (no kidding). So, I don't see the problem you apparently see if a road is clogged if everyone is behaving legally. It is just heavy traffic. It matters not if the heavy traffic is chasers or shoppers at Wichita's Bradley Fair.

I was about to say the same thing. I live in the KC area and roads are clogged all the time. Are they going to start banning people from going to work at a certain time because the roads get clogged and it's a hazzard? Are they going to start banning people from going to the Kansas Speedway or the Chiefs game because it's clogs I-70 and I-435?

No, it just happens and you learn to deal with it. Most likely you will never see that problem again in Dickinson County at least not for awhile. Yes it sucks as a LEO or a firefighter to get slowed down by the congestion but it's part of the job and they will get through it.

If his problem isn't the clogged roads and it's people breaking the law then like we've already said, laws already exist for all of that and if a LEO is in the area he/she will take care of it.

 

[Andrew Stoller]

Don't argue, just show me evidence otherwise! I've been in EM for years and worked with a sheriff's office for several too. There is NO way I could approach them with a straight face and ask them to put up a roaming block around every potentially severe storm and scan for spotter ID cards.

Look at the area on Saturday where where there was potential for severe weather. It was basically the entire state of Kansas. Exactly how would a government agency and a law enforcement agency logistically stop people from storm chasing? What are they going to do? Have a deputy at every intersection in BFE Kansas and interrogate every person in every car? The thought of that is absolutely laughable. All it would take is a few big chase days where this happened, and the real criminals would learn about it. Bank robberies and car thefts would be through the roof on high risk days. That's usually what happens when law enforcement has to respond to things that are inconsequential (or things that produce revenue).

 

[Jake Orosi]

Honestly I don't see why each and every car couldn't (and wouldn't) pull to the side. No issue at all. Now if there was a ditch right alongside with 6ft drops - that might be another story. I'm not in KS chasing as much as you so I'll take your word on it if that is a major issue. But the picture you showed could be cleared within seconds if everyone moves to the right when the see/hear the medic unit. End of story.

One would think so at least.

 

[Mike Smith]

It is true that U.S. 40 through New Cambria, Kansas is a public highway and my driver's license gives me the privilege of driving on it. Was it designed to support a thousand vehicles, buses of tourists, DOWs, chase teams, media crews, school teams, law enforcement vehicles, firetrucks, and ambulances all at the same time during a tornado emergency?

It is completely true that it is legal for people to drive around storms if they want.

As a full U.S. highway (as opposed to a "county road), it better have been designed to handle "thousands" of vehicles. U.S. 54 west of Wichita through Kingman handles thousands of vehicles many hours and -- even though it is two-lane in that area -- doesn't seem to have any problem.

Increasingly, I'm getting the impression from Mr. Douglas that there may be truth to the stereotype of rural people not liking strangers. I certainly hope that is not correct! His comments seem to be based around what he and local sheriffs "like" rather than things that are illegal.

Look, several times (mostly in Kingman Co.) I, and other chasers, intentionally pulled off the two-lane section line roads and onto the smaller dirt roads to keep out of traffic. That was the legal and courteous thing to do, even though it cost a little time. I don't dispute there can be an issue with a lot of traffic and it is incumbent on us to obey the law and be courteous. If law enforcement is involved, I'd add "respectful."

But, frankly, I couldn't care less what local officials "like." That isn't my problem. Their job is to enforce the law, period.

That said, I'd be happy to work through local chambers of commerce (neutral organizations as opposed to a law enforcement group or a chaser/AMS group) to bring together the interested parties to work out solutions that would be beneficial to all concerned. I'm all about win-win situations.

 

[Lisa M Beal]

The great majority of chasers I have met are responsive to emergency personnel.
I realize that there are irresponsible folks both within and outside the chaser ans spotter communities.
I often with that there was a licensing program for our community (as ham radio has) that would
allow for verifiable credentials and impose stiffer penalties for irresponsible behavior.

My $0.02 worth,
Lisa

 

[Matt Tottle]

That was Sky Warn stopping traffic on I 135 near Salina, KS. I wen't around him and he slammed his fist into my window. Some of us are doing the public a favor by relaying the ground truth to these storms. I don't see what the big dealio is. Come on, Kansas, it isn't are fault your so darn chaseable!

I was right behind you and I saw that. He almost got smashed into when he pulled across the lanes like that. I have no idea who that person was, but they were definitely NOT LEO. It was a white pickup truck with a white/amber lightbar on top (white is a banned color in KS, and no agency uses it) and Skywarn stickers all over. I was monitoring the KHP on my scanner and they were questioning why 135 was stopped dead, so it was very obvious he was not working for them or blocking the highway with their blessing. That is a prime example of the whacker yahoos that give the community a bad name.

Wow, I tuned out of a day, and this thread took on a life of its own in a hurry. I will say, to clarify, that I did not see any examples of "bad behaviour" ... just clogged up 2-lane roads. Clogged up not because of people stopping halfway in the road, but simply due to volume. Also, with the lack of shoulder, it would have been impossible for anyone to find a small spot to pull over while still maintaining the full speed limit. Is any *one* person to blame for this? No. But I could certainly see where this would become problematic in time.

The whole "local yokel" vs "serious chaser" argument is bogus. Remember, you're in the "yokel's" home turf. These are their counties, communities, etc. It doesn't give them any more...or any less... right to be out there. Maybe they have no idea what they are doing, but whatever. They may know the roads and hills and farms better than anyone else.

Besides, any one of us could be an "amateur." Even me. I hadn't been to the Plains in years. Just didn't have the right combination of time and desire. This outbreak fell in the middle of a 4-day break from work. If it hadn't been a high or moderate risk, I probably wouldn't have bothered, since it was just a one-day affair. I have no decals or lightbars or antennae on my car. I bring my dogs with me. If I had a pickup truck with OK/KS/TX plates, I'd almost certainly be branded a yokel!

Will the issue of volume solve itself in time? Maybe. Some people, like myself, will be turned away by the crowds if they become too problematic. Speaking for myself -- I probably won't travel so far again for an event with such fast storm motions -- it is just too frustrating. I probably won't travel so far again (12 hours one-way) for a one-day event. So there's one less car on the roads! If I can get two days' out of such a trip -- then maybe.

Wow, thanks for once again clarifying that a local is someone that lives somewhere. Now, maybe us "chasers" are being offensive and aggressive because not a single person can provide us proof of alleged claims. Yes there was traffic, show me the proof that it was caused by chasers! Who are you, the media, and Dickinson County admins to say that it wasn't these "locals" you keep referring to driving at 5mph gawking and snapping cell phone images? Or that it wasn't 90% locals pulled off on the road and standing in the highway. Look REALLY close at the footage aired by Fox showing the Marquette EF-4 on KS-4, notice the license plate of that black SUV parked on the road with occupants standing across the roadway? Kansas.

I decided to take K-4 to intercept that cell, because according to the SN, there were very few beacons in that area compared to K-96. I hit the zero-visibility rain curtain just west of Geneseo, and seeing the couplet on radar on track to cross K-4 I did not want to chance coming near it while it was rain-wrapped. So I pulled off the road to wait a bit, and a couple minutes later as I go to pull back onto the road, the aforementioned bumper to bumper 'funeral procession' of 50-60 cars starts passing me (only a few were indicated on the map, so the large majority of them were not running beacons). When I finally made it back in, there were times that for no apparent reason we had to slow down to a crawl, there were many vehicles parked 'sorta' off the road, and there were decked out vehicles doing 80-90mph passing 5-6 others at a time. Then out of nowhere, we come to a dead stop, because some people decided to take it upon themselves to block both lanes of the road. Why? Who knows. Again, they were NOT LEO.

Maybe I'm not understanding your comment - but if you are in the road when an ambulance is behind you, why wouldn't you pull to the side? That's the law in every state as far as I know. Does being a chaser negate the need to get out of the way? If you are so close to the stopped car in front of you that you can't pull over, you are too close.

Honestly I don't see why each and every car couldn't (and wouldn't) pull to the side. No issue at all. Now if there was a ditch right alongside with 6ft drops - that might be another story. I'm not in KS chasing as much as you so I'll take your word on it if that is a major issue. But the picture you showed could be cleared within seconds if everyone moves to the right when the see/hear the medic unit. End of story.

I'll use my previously mentioned K-4 experience as an example - while I was stuck in the 'procession', a couple KHP cars were coming up behind.. K-4 has a very narrow soft shoulder (the white lines are painted on the edge of the asphalt), and it does have ditches. It's not a place you can pull off safely. Best I could give them was I slowed down to open up the space in front of me, but I was not going to pull off the pavement at 60mph onto a muddy shoulder.