Chasing and taxes

Originally posted by David Wolfson
It's pretty easy to justify offsetting any income from chasing with expenses. It's more difficult to also justify offsetting a big chunk of your unrelated earned income with a lot of excess chasing expenses. Unless you keep good records and build up a good case for intent, it looks like what it is :wink: : a way to deduct hobby and recreational expenses from your earned taxable income.

That's my point exactly. You particular situation is unique as is everybody esles. At what point does write-off expenses become excessive? What abot the 3 year rule? I could pop off alot of questions that I seriously doubt anybody here would know the full answer too. With the complex tax laws changing every year along with continuous "clarification" and "rulings" from the IRS, what worked for you a few years ago stands a good chance of not applying to this year or the next few years. It is unfortunate, but you must stay on top of the tax codes each and every year. Who has time to do that?

All I'm saying is that you have to spend a good deal of time with record keeping AND keeping up with the current tax codes. Is it worth it? Is it worth it making a mistake? I guess I'm being overly cautious here, but the IRS is one government entity that I'd rather not have to deal with....personally.

That's why I think it would be a good idea to have a group of us chasers hire a tax attorney to do all of this for us and keep us inline. :) As you mentioned intent, by doing so and if there are mistakes, I can guarantee you the IRS will be much more forgiving because you were acting under the advice of counsel. And, besides, you can write off your tax attorney fees too! :)
 
I understand where you're coming from, Steve, and I mis-phrased my post. I intended to say one shouldn't be deducting hobby and recreational expenses no matter how good their record-keeping.

In my personal opinion, though, the IRS' own publications and other on-line information gives pretty good guidance. A lawyer will mainly reformat and charge plenty for the same guidance. Then buy and use a good record-keeping program. I use Quicken Premier which allows management of both personal and business finances.

Alas, filing a Schedule C, especially with a significant loss, makes one much more likely to be audited from what I understand.
 
Originally posted by Steve Miller TX
That's why I think it would be a good idea to have a group of us chasers hire a tax attorney to do all of this for us and keep us inline.
Oooooh! That sounds like an absolutely great mission/benefit for this new "Chasers Association" organization everybody keeps proposing. Until now, the best anybody has come up with was bumper stickers and hotel discounts.
 
Originally posted by David Wolfson
I understand where you're coming from, Steve, and I mis-phrased my post. I intended to say one shouldn't be deducting hobby and recreational expenses no matter how good their record-keeping.

In my personal opinion, though, the IRS' own publications and other on-line information gives pretty good guidance. A lawyer will mainly reformat and charge plenty for the same guidance. Then buy and use a good record-keeping program. I use Quicken Premier which allows management of both personal and business finances.

Alas, filing a Schedule C, especially with a significant loss, makes one much more likely to be audited from what I understand.

I guess I should also clarify. :) If you have the time to read and digest all of the IRS publications and find all of the answers you are looking for, or worst yet knowing which questions you have to ask, then it can certainly be done. I guess I was responding more from my personal situation as I have investments, charitable contibutions, homeowner stuff, etc. that keeps me pretty immersed in the tax codes for those areas. Every year they change and it requires more reading. I just simply don't have the time to read up and become well versed in the tax laws regarding stormchasing business/hobby stuff. I still have to have time to go stormchasing and other things. LOL!! :)
 
Originally posted by Rob_Davis

Oooooh! That sounds like an absolutely great mission/benefit for this new \"Chasers Association\" organization everybody keeps proposing. Until now, the best anybody has come up with was bumper stickers and hotel discounts.

This could easily start a whole new thread. :) I've seen some discussions about that and it quickly deteriorates. Chasers are pretty independent and diverse breed. ;-) But, with services like that as well as copyright assistance (enforcement, filing, etc), and setting/adhering to pricing standards for our work, etc are things that would interest me. But, I digress before the admins tap me on the shoulder. :roll:

Maybe you could find a tax attorney that would like to go stormchasing with you in exchange for their services/advice? The old barter system is a beautiful thing nowadays.

Of course, my beliefs as a Libertarian is that federal income taxes should be totally abolished. Then we wouldn't have to worry about it. LOL!!!
 
My experience with this is limited to two years... I do a lot of contract work with video. While my income from this isn't massive, I typically write off as much as twice the amount I make in a year. This season may be a bit higher due to lack of video sales on my part.

I have written chasing off for a couple seasons now, both years recording losses and would imagine this year doing the same. I do not know how the three-year rule will affect me, but until I am told otherwise, I am going to continue to write-off my expenses as a "business" expense as I can justify all my expenses with receipts, mileage logs, etc. I keep very good track of what I spend related to chasing, so any audits should be rather painless (as much asone can be) if I were to get one.

Again, I don't find I am doing anything wrong. I figure as long as I can back up my claims with receipts, invoices, etc, I should be fine. Anyone who may know different please speak up, but as far as I know, I am fine.
 
It'd be easier if they just took your first child and called it a life (for taxes).
 
Not speaking for Mike, but I suspect he can't take a tax credit on his chasing equipment, cameras, gas, etc.

My only source of income in 2004 was from chasing stuff. You can rest assured I deducted everything I bought in 2004 that related to chasing....cameras, dvd making stuff(burner, software), etc. I never kept track of mileage and gas or did the other billion things I could have, like deducting parts of my appartment space/rent. But this is all probably different as I certainly didn't have a loss in it and wasn't working any other job. Well actually I did have a job through early March, but nothing after that.

I am working on a loss for this year though, lol. I plan to still deduct the things I have purchased, as well as gas costs, motels, etc.
 
Originally posted by Mike Hollingshead
Not speaking for Mike, but I suspect he can't take a tax credit on his chasing equipment, cameras, gas, etc.

My only source of income in 2004 was from chasing stuff.

Good thing I didn't speak for you :oops:


I am working on a loss for this year though, lol. I plan to still deduct the things I have purchased, as well as gas costs, motels, etc.

Most definately. You deserve to turn a profit soon though! :D
 
One thing that you have to remember when dealing with tax deductions is that tax deductions are not a way to save money dollar-for-dollar! That is, money spent on gear, travel, etc, or ANY 'business expense', does *not* equal tax savings dollar-for-dollar. Deductions only reduce your *taxable income*, which in turn reduces your taxes by a percentage - but the amount of money spent on a deductable expense does not equal the money saved on taxes.

I know the following numbers may vary greatly from person to person, but just for the sake of example: For instance, let's say you make $30,000 a year. With no deductions, your taxes (state and federal) may be roughly $8,000, assuming a total income tax of 26%. Now - you want that new Canon 20D and a VX2100, with L-series lenses, wide angle adapters, tripods, software, tapes, memory cards and accessories for a total of roughly $7,000. If you established a legit chasing business and deducted these items as expenses, your deduction would be $7,000 (if you deducted the full amount in one year rather than opting to depreciate the items over multiple years). Now, that $7K does not reduce your $8K tax bill to $1,000. What it does is reduce your taxable income by $7,000, so now your taxable income with the deductions is $23,000 ($30K income minus the $7K deduction). This only reduces your taxes to $5980 from $8,000, a tax savings of only $2020. In other words, you still have to pay taxes on the $23K. So, you spent $7,000 on gear and saved only $2020 on taxes.

In order to reduce your $8,000 tax bill to zero, you would need to have zero taxable income. This means you'll need to have deductions (expenses) that match your *total* income, which in this case would be $30,000! So, to pay zero taxes on a $30K income, you'd need to SPEND $30,000 - all to save just $8,000 on taxes! This won't work for two reasons - First, as mentioned in previous posts, the IRS is not going to allow you to do this for very long. And secondly, if you made $30,000 and spent $30,000, obviously that leaves you with absolutely no money to live on for that year!

In other words, justifying a large purchase or ANY expense by saying it is a tax deduction does not end up saving you as much money in the end as you think. Buying that new camera will still cost you a large sum even after the tax deduction. If you really need the equipment, that's one thing, but if the sole reason you're getting the gear is for the tax deduction, it won't help you as much as it may seem.

When you have a business, a lot of people (insurance companies, salesmen, etc.) will try to ease the pain of expensive items, rates or fees by touting the tax deduction you can take if you bought it. But just remember tax deduction =/ direct savings on taxes.

I guess my point is, don't fall for the trap of spending a large sum of money on expenses just for the tax deduction. Unless you really need the gear, it's actually cheaper to just pay Uncle Sam than try spending money to reduce your taxes.
 
From my understanding, the 3 out of 5 year profit rule provides a "safe harbor" -- that is, if you show a profit in this manner, IRS generally would not challenge you on the "hobby loss" issue. However, if you don't actually show profit - then the question becomes one of intent: is your activity genuinely being carried on with the intent of earning a business profit, or is it a hobby? In a gray area such as storm photograpy, this is a facts and circumstances question which you should anticipate having to prove your intent. So, if you go on year after year taking storm photos with the idea that "someday I may be abe to sell it", you'll probably have an uphill battle should you wind up in Tax Court. However, if you're actively marketing your product, showing some real revenue growth, etc. , then even if it takes several years to show a real profit, you may be in a very good position to show you have real business intent.

Now, on the flip side, I do not believe there is any rule that gives you a "free pass" to deduct hobby losses for 3 years. A hobby loss is a hobby loss, and is not deductible.

As to expenses directly related to spotting activities, that is a very interesting question. Typically, you are allowed a mileage deduction in support of a charitable organization. However, I'm not even sure what SKYWARN actually is from an organizational standpoint. Is it a 501©(3) organization? Does anyone know? I can't find any info on web sites re: this. It looks like SKYWARN is some type of loose conceptual program, but perhaps not an organizational entity in it's own right?

DISCLAIMER: This post is not intended as tax or legal advice to any person.
 
DISCLAIMER: same as Mike's, above....

Technically, I don't think the decision to depreciate (spread over multiple tax years) capital equipment like videocams and computers rather than expense them all in one year is optional. It's just how you're supposed to do it. And if you also use your computer, for example, for non-business use you technically have to apportion the business use.
 
DISCLAIMER: same as Mike's, above....

Technically, I don't think the decision to depreciate (spread over multiple tax years) capital equipment like videocams and computers rather than expense them all in one year is optional. It's just how you're supposed to do it. And if you also use your computer, for example, for non-business use you technically have to apportion the business use.

actually..from what I've read as long as you end up with a profit at the end of the year you can expense the entire thing when you purchase it.

I think what the IRS objects to is people who buy a bunch of stuff in the first year and claim a HUGE loss.
 
I guess this kind of discussion proves the original point about getting real professional advice rather than relying on people like ourselves....

But with the original disclaimers, I'm pretty sure from what finance and tax knowledge I do have that the determination of whether a venture is personal or business in nature (and whether it turns a profit) is quite separate from how one should account for business expenditures.

Either cash or accrual accounting is allowed, but you have to pick one or the other method when you start your business and you in general can't mix the two. With cash accounting, both expenses and revenues are recognized when the cash changes hands. With accrual accounting they are recognized when the economic event occurs, even though cash may not have changed hands yet. So if you buy a camera on credit and want to treat it as a fully capitalizable asset you must use accrual accounting. Accrual accounting is a PITA, IMO.

Here's a link on capitalization vs. expensing:
http://www.fixedassetinfo.com/articles/capexp.asp

The bottom line is that an asset used in a trade or business should be capitalized if it costs a material amount and has a useful life of more than one year.
 
Yes, as a general rule, tangible property used in a trade or business with a useful life of more than one year (known as "section 1245" property) must be capitalized and depreciated under a system known as MACRS. This applies whether you are a cash or accrual basis taxpayer. I believe what the previous poster was referring to re: expensing of depreciable property is a special exception known as "Section 179 expense." That is, back in 2003, Congress passed a law designed to spur capital investment by small businesses, so - as a special exception to depreciation - businesses were allowed to expense up to $102,000 of otherwise depreciable business assets. This allowance phases out for medium and larger businesses.

Regardless of the depreciation rules, you must still have a business to claim any business expense, be it current expenditures or depreciation. That is where the aforementioned hobby loss rules come into play. If it's a hobby and not a business, then there is no claim of business expenses at all.

Disclaimer: this post is not intended as legal or tax advice to any person.
 
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