"Certain Death" Revisited - Long post

  • Thread starter Thread starter Scott Overpeck
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No question the certain death warning did get some peoples attention. Having talked to some DMORT team members some who stayed in Bolivar may not ever be recovered. I am surprised at the lack of coverage on the number of missing persons. On a national level most are not aware that several hundred persons are missing and most likely deceased.

I think the certain death warning was a good idea and I would be interested in what emergency management thinks about the number who may have left in the last 24 hours.
 
I think you made the wisest call you could make given the circumstances, Scott. Given the real possibility of thousands of lives lost within hours versus speculations at what could, maybe, happen sometime in the future, you did your best to spare even the biggest fools from what, conceivably, could have been a much greater catastrophe. Thanks for putting yourself out there.
 
Certainly lessons learned for the next time, but if I had to throw out an excuse, we have not had to deal with a significant hurricane event for quite some time

Exactly why this sort of thing gets discussed - and I thank you for taking part in the talk...

During Hurricane Ike, our office thought it was an extreme situation given the history.

So do we know what sort of change that made in the minds of evacuees? Is there anything to show that people who weren't going to move -- started to move after hearing CD?

I guess my question remains - why not dedicate the meteorological products to hard information and specific forecasts, and leave the "CD" type stuff (if deemed necessary) to EM's?

- Rob
 
Look at it this way... If you had a significant tornado bearing down on a populated area, but 20 miles yet from town, do you draw a path ahead of the twister and only warn the small area in the absolute center of the perceived path? Ridiculous. You warn everyone ahead of the storm to take shelter or get the hell out of the way. I've never heard of a person taking shelter, then getting angry for doing so because the tornado missed their house.

When it comes to a hurricane's storm surge, there is no shelter. So the only other option is to get the hell out of the way. There are 350 people for whom that prediction was absolutely 100% accurate.
 
As mentioned above, I don't think that's a valid comparison. Even in a Tornado Emergency, NWS doesn't say "You face certain death if you don't get into a shelter."
Ehhhhh. Maybe not the best example to counter this, but IIRC during the May 3rd, 1999 tornado, didn't Gary England say "You need to be below ground to survive this storm!" Which sort of implies that if you don't have a basement and you rode it out in a bathroom or closet you were going to die? That is the only case where I can remember seeing some one basically say you are going to face certain death during a tornado.....

EDIT: Or was this discussion just limited to official NWS products? In that case, you are right.
 
We're talking NWS. I think the local EM should be the one saying "If you live in Galveston, and this hits as forecast, you face certain death." Maybe if the "if" was in the NWS product, we wouldn't be questioning any of this... I think it was the certainty of a non-weather statement being used in an official weather forecast product, when that certainty wasn't apparent to everyone forecasting this situation.
 
I'm all for keeping it in perspective and keeping it real.
As Danny N pointed out, the warning came thru - although veiled in its wording.
In a small town, people can't stampede due to panic.
In downtown Detroit or Chicago they can.
So - two different kinds of worded warning messages?
That only seems plausible - but is it really practical if the threat is that real?

If a storm poses a deadly threat to any given town or city; what good would it do in not telling the truth.
I mean - we all go to great lengths to get the warning back; so why candy coat it and send it along if there aren't teeth in it?
Can you imagine being in Moore OK on May 4 1999 and the NWS telling you that everything is OK?
A deadly threat is just that; you are not sparking panic if it is that kind of real threat and enough lead time is given.

If tornado sirens are blaring and the NWS/EMS has interrupted normal broadcast TV and radio - declaring to find underground shelter - then it is the publics own fault if they fail to listen and believe the warning.
You can't fault the NWS.
You can't fault cable/local broadcasting.
You can't fault Emergency Services.
You can only blame yourself for not listenng...
 
I think this discussion is getting to the point where it is more about what you think the NWS should do in warning situations. Should the NWS use call to action statements in warnings? Why or why not?

This brings into question how people respond to warnings. Is there a perceived threat that if people do not act on the warning, their lives could be at stake? Not let's think about this for a moment. If there is a tornado warning, the first thing we(weather geeks, chasers, etc) do is fire up the laptop with GR3 and start looking at the storm. Then we make a decision to go chase or not. Hopefully if we see it is coming for our house we have the video camera ready and then ready to run for cover. :D Other people get the warning, go outside and look for the storm. They want more information on the threat. Do I need to be concerned? Others may blow it off thinking this is just another tornado warning, I live in OK and yet to be hit, so this will just be another storm or non event. There are others that have had their houses removed by an EF4 so they head for the storm shelter regardless. The idea behind these call to action statements in warnings is to provide additional information so that you act upon the warning and usually time is of the essence.

Now with storm surge and hurricanes, you hopefully have a lot of time to get going when the evacuation is started. Evacuations started before the hurricane warning was issued for Ike, and then expanded when the warning went out. For whatever reason, people were slow to respond to the situation. There is more time to think about it and rationalize it. Afterall, evacuating is not on everyone's priority list. It is expensive with high gas prices, hotel costs, food, etc. People make excuses to stay for whatever reason. Some still want to see that this thing is going to hit, and by the time they figure out that it is, it is too late. So with that, what is going to motivate you to get out of surge prone areas? Your only option is to run to higher ground. This is where the certain death type of CTA has its purpose in that there has to be a way to get people's attention that they need to act on this warning with urgency. It basically says that the consequence of you staying in this storm surge area with 15ft of surge could be your life. Hopefully this would motivate one to take action and leave. Now, should we (NWS) use these CTAs or should the county EM talk about this stuff?

Now the Gal Co OEM talked this thing up, maybe not in the media as much, but they certainly stressed to all the cities that the storm surge will be a life threatening situation. In the end, the EMs end up using the NWS as the buck stops here authority when it comes to the actions that need to be taken in regard to warnings. Even the EMs have a hard time convincing people to take action. So as much as the NWS tries to tell people what to expect, they still ask what they should do. My job as a forecaster has changed from doing straight forecasts to doing the forecasts and interpreting the forecasts so people can understand what to do. There are some people that get the warning and they may seek out a little more information, but by and large they know what to do. Others do not have as much common sense, and need this extra hand holding. That is where the call to action statements come into play. EMs can say all they want about what people should do, but they are not seen as the expert or authority when it comes to weather related warnings. EMs are far more concerned about making sure evacuations are ongoing and preparing for the aftermath. The fact of the matter is that they come to the NWS (in this case our office) and tell us not enough people are evacuating. What can you do? Well, based off the info we have, we can use this CTA. Will that help?

Now, we do not know if the certain death wording caused others to evacuate or not. I don't think anyone can know that for sure. The county did say that later that afternoon and night, more people were evacuating. Perhaps it took them longer to get home from work and make preparations. Maybe it took people longer to get enough information so they know what they need to do. In this regard, I think it helped having the strong language so that it gains attention that the threat is real. It helps put the threat into perspective when some may have trouble thinking what 15 ft of water will do to my house.

In the end, the NWS uses the call to actions to get the attention of people, provide more information on the threat so that the warned people take actions. Some may decide to not take action, and that is their problem. The other issue is that the NWS is seen as the expert and authority when it comes to weather hazards and threats. The NWS has the credibility where as the county EM may not and will likely look to the NWS for information about the threat anyway.
 
The other issue is that the NWS is seen as the expert and authority when it comes to weather hazards and threats. The NWS has the credibility where as the county EM may not and will likely look to the NWS for information about the threat anyway.

I think that discussion also needs to include local media... I know "national media" had their take on the CD wording -- but what did local media say? Certainly when it comes to tornado warnings, most TV meteorologists don't read through the CTA in any form. (Most of us strongly disagree with telling everyone in a car to get into a ditch immediately, but that's another thread ;) )

So how did the local people hear (if they did) about CD? Did TV mets use those words too? Did EM's put out the message saying "NWS says you'll die"? I think those are important components of analyzing response (and future impact to those words...)
 
Modified Death Warning

The thought that comes to me after reading all these posts is the delicate balancing act involved in making the public statement in association with the forecast.
I wonder if a statement something like this might be best: " Galveston is likely in the path of the worst winds and devistating tidal surge. It's crucial that you evacuate NOW. Anyone who stays behind might face serious injury or death from wind and/or tidal surge up to (x) feet. If you choose to stay, you will be responsible for your own life, as it may be too late or dangerous for emergency personnel to come to your rescue."

I was living in Houston during Rita. As a storm chaser, I wanted to stay in the Houston area and see the hurricane, but living in vulnerable South Bay which had mandatory evacuation, I chose to evacuate. Fortunately an acquaintance invited me to their family home in Cyprus (NW of downtown).
Just before getting in my packed car to leave, my phone rang. It was a taped message from the mayor of Clear Lake with a warning that left no uncertainty.
It went something like: "Evacuate NOW before it's too late. Once the storm begins, do not count on availability of or transportation to shelters. Expect up to 20 foot tidal surges..." I hung up at that point since I was in the process of locking my door and leaving.
 
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