Cellular data coverage using amplifiers?

[Dan Robinson]

All very interesting and helpful info guys, thanks for posting. I've been a satisfied and continuous (and PAYING) WxWorx subscriber since 2004 (I use it year round, for winter WX too) and I'm probably going to hold out for at least another year to see how the new amps work for everyone. I'd love to convert my annual XM cost into an amp, but just can't risk those dead zones - even if they're only 5% to 10% of the map. WxWorx is mission-critical to me and has been arguably my most important piece of equipment (second only to the laptop it runs on). For me, such a staple has exceptionally high replacement requirements. (and again, for those who might think, I'm not paid or compelled by anyone to say any of that, nor have I ever been to plug any product or service whatsoever).

Gordon, do you know if it's possible to get a good estimate of how far coverage might be extended based on a provider's tower or coverage maps? I'm assuming that a.) each tower's coverage is a simple range radius that would be enlarged by the amp and b.) we could probably infer where any problem spots might be based on areas that don't have any towers whatsoever?

 

[STexan]

I quit WxWorx a few years ago because to me, it seemed the radar updates were just too old (on the order of 8-12 minutes). Maybe they have improved, but for intimate tornado/storm chasing, this additional delay was unacceptable and unsafe. And cloud cover overlay was not very useful, and outdated as well. It was nice as a backup system for those rare areas where data is unavailable for many square miles but still couldn't justify it any more given the ever-improving cellular coverage.

 

[Gordon Spencer]

All very interesting and helpful info guys, thanks for posting. I've been a satisfied and continuous (and PAYING) WxWorx subscriber since 2004 (I use it year round, for winter WX too) and I'm probably going to hold out for at least another year to see how the new amps work for everyone. I'd love to convert my annual XM cost into an amp, but just can't risk those dead zones - even if they're only 5% to 10% of the map. WxWorx is mission-critical to me and has been arguably my most important piece of equipment (second only to the laptop it runs on). For me, such a staple has exceptionally high replacement requirements. (and again, for those who might think, I'm not paid or compelled by anyone to say any of that, nor have I ever been to plug any product or service whatsoever).

Gordon, do you know if it's possible to get a good estimate of how far coverage might be extended based on a provider's tower or coverage maps? I'm assuming that a.) each tower's coverage is a simple range radius that would be enlarged by the amp and b.) we could probably infer where any problem spots might be based on areas that don't have any towers whatsoever?

Can't give a definitive number as every circumstance is different . This is the key . The new amplifier has a sensitivity of -127 . Your phone and data device stop even sensing there is a signal present between -113 aND -116 . Wilson amplifiers do not even work when signal gets below -104 according to them . The ones we tested stopped working at -100.

 

[James Hyde]

My question is. I have newer Verizon equipment (iPhone and android tablet). I don't know if I've ever seen them indicate "3G" operation. Do these Verizon devices fall back to 3G service when that's available and 4G is not or weak? (and it continues to say "4G" regardless of what mode it's in?) I guess I should ask Verizon but was wondering if someone here knows.

... Is 3G still up in some areas? many areas? or is it just about done? I ask because it seems I've heard new 4G devices always indicate "4G", even if it's running on 3G

So there are two things going on here. 1. is how the signal travels, and 2. is the difference between 3G and LTE.

1. All cell reception is required by the FCC to fit inside specific wavelength areas called bands. The classic physics dilemma in radio communication is the lower the frequency the farther it travels, but the lower the amount of data you can transfer. The inverse also applies, higher frequency = high data rate but low range. Verizon in particular has a LTE band (#13) at 750 MHz and a 3G (CLR) band at 850MHz. So theoretically LTE band 13 should travel farther than the 3G CLR band. Your phone/tablet automatically defaults to the LTE signal over the 3G signal so that's the main reason why you never notice the 3G signal.

2. However, LTE is digital packet based, just like the internet. This means that either you get the packet or you don't. 3G is circuit switching based which can be more flexible in some instances. An example of this is when you are making a phone call. If you're on a LTE connection and you lose signal, you literally can't hear the person on the other end because the information packet didn't get to your phone. In 3G you may lose some of the signal, you can still hear the person on the other side but the lost signal you will hear as static noise. You may ask then, why doesn't carriers just use 3G? I'd rather have some information than none. Well, the thing is that you can fit more (way more) information into the LTE packet based format than the 3G signal (like literally waves of information) and carriers think that you'd rather have a lot of information at once and an occasional drop out than a crawling information rate that slowly fades.

So to answer your questions: Yes, Verizon still operates 3G everywhere but you may not notice it because usually your phone prefers LTE over 3G and most often (by physics) the LTE will travel farther than the 3G. Your phone WILL default back to 3G but only if it needs to or if that is the only signal that the tower offers (ie. extremely rural areas... looking at you Cherry County, NE)

 

[James Hammett]

The classic physics dilemma in radio communication is the lower the frequency the farther it travels, but the lower the amount of data you can transfer.

If you're talking about ionosphere skip propagation the upper frequency limit of that phenomenon is well below cellular frequencies. As you're further from the tower signal-to-noise ratio decreases and bandwidth available goes with it, regardless of the band you're on.

I bought an amp several years back and noticed they were all spec'd to be paired with long lengths of poor quality coax to stay within the FCC's effective radiated power limits. So I had an epiphany: ditch the expensive amp and use a high gain antenna with a short run of low loss coax. Using an amp in this scenario would exceed FCC limits which would make you a bad RF neighbor (slows down/limits connectivity for others around you) and may get you repeatedly booted from the network (I know Verizon does this).

 

[Jon Strebler]

I have an older Wilson 3G amp I've been using for several years. It has served me well, and I don't intend on buying a 4G amp.

My question is. I have newer Verizon equipment (iPhone and android tablet). I don't know if I've ever seen them indicate "3G" operation. Do these Verizon devices fall back to 3G service when that's available and 4G is not or weak? (and it continues to say "4G" regardless of what mode it's in?) I guess I should ask Verizon but was wondering if someone here knows.

... Is 3G still up in some areas? many areas? or is it just about done? I ask because it seems I've heard new 4G devices always indicate "4G", even if it's running on 3G

I still use a Wilson 3G amp. I just turn my tablet setting to use CDMA(3G) only when I get further away from cities and also use it as the hotspot. I don't even want to bother with trying to get a weak 4G signal in some places so I just make sure that I have a strong 3G signal with the amp. That was with an iPhone and Galaxy Tab on Verizon.

 

[STexan]

I still use a Wilson 3G amp. I just turn my tablet setting to use CDMA(3G) only when I get further away from cities and also use it as the hotspot. I don't even want to bother with trying to get a weak 4G signal in some places so I just make sure that I have a strong 3G signal with the amp. That was with an iPhone and Galaxy Tab on Verizon.

But are there areas today that run exclusively 4G and putting your device into "CDMA only" mode may be shooting yourself in the foot? I've been in some areas in northern NM the last few days where I assumed there was some sort of service, tried the different modes on my Android Tablet (Verizon), and nothing, not even a weak signal.

I only use my tablet for chasing/hotspot. I wonder if there is a setting somewhere that I'm missing that will not let the device use CDMA data while "roaming"? (separate from voice/phone usage)

 

[Jon Strebler]

I'm not aware of any areas that run exclusively 4G. I have heard that 3G will be phased out eventually, but I'm not aware of it happening yet so 3G should still have vastly superior coverage in the Plains.

 

[Gordon Spencer]

If you're talking about ionosphere skip propagation the upper frequency limit of that phenomenon is well below cellular frequencies. As you're further from the tower signal-to-noise ratio decreases and bandwidth available goes with it, regardless of the band you're on.

I bought an amp several years back and noticed they were all spec'd to be paired with long lengths of poor quality coax to stay within the FCC's effective radiated power limits. So I had an epiphany: ditch the expensive amp and use a high gain antenna with a short run of low loss coax. Using an amp in this scenario would exceed FCC limits which would make you a bad RF neighbor (slows down/limits connectivity for others around you) and may get you repeatedly booted from the network (I know Verizon does this).

That is why there all new rules for amplifiers . Only amps meeting the new specs ar allowed to be sold. So everyone is a good RF neighbor. Some companies got PBAs ( permit but ask ) for amplifiers that did not meet the new requirements. Those will be revoked when amps that meet all the new requirements are on the market . So the FCC tells us.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I'm curious if anyone with an amplifier and a Verizon 4G/3G data card chased the area in IL/MO today roughly between Highway 61, I-72, I-55 and the Mississippi River north of St. Louis. This has been one of the largest data "dead zones" around the lower Midwest. I have zero cellular data anywhere in this region except for in the towns of Troy and Bowling Green in MO and Jerseyville in IL. In Jerseyville, the internet speeds are as slow as a 2400-bps dial-up modem.

If amps result in reliable internet access across this region, I'd be impressed!

 

[James Hammett]

I'd like to find a phone app that could plot WiFi connection ping latency on a Google Map. Apps like Sensorly only care about cell signal strength directly to the phone and wouldn't provide useful data with a WiFi->mobile hotspot setup like many of us use. If enough of us used an app like this we could get objective answers to all the questions about what external antenna & amp combinations work best in the field.

 

[Tom Stolze]

I'm curious if anyone with an amplifier and a Verizon 4G/3G data card chased the area in IL/MO today roughly between Highway 61, I-72, I-55 and the Mississippi River north of St. Louis. This has been one of the largest data "dead zones" around the lower Midwest. I have zero cellular data anywhere in this region except for in the towns of Troy and Bowling Green in MO and Jerseyville in IL. In Jerseyville, the internet speeds are as slow as a 2400-bps dial-up modem.

If amps result in reliable internet access across this region, I'd be impressed!

That area is tough for Verizon Dan, I have traveled 100 north of Hardin, IL with no coverage with my amp in the past.
I have a MiFi through Verizon that I use most of the time, our phones are on ATT and recently went with a family plan allowing me to tether my phone.
I went to central MO Thursday and chased back towards STL, I chased north of Kingdom City to Laddonia on 54 before turning back south to Montgomery City then to Troy, MO. Knowing this area hasn't been the best in the past for Verizon, I plugged my iPhone into the computer and used my ATT internet with good success. My choice for anywhere in MO off the main roads is ATT.

I came across this app a year or two back, not sure of the accuracy, but I believe it gives a good overview of the main players in mobile data today.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/coverage/id388815949?mt=8

 

[Dan Robinson]

Thanks Tom, that's the kind of thing I was afraid of when it comes to going amp-only. The best amp in the world won't help if your carrier has no towers for 100 miles. Sounds like a backup will still be needed, either via another carrier or WxWorx.

 

[Drew Terril]

Thanks Tom, that's the kind of thing I was afraid of when it comes to going amp-only. The best amp in the world won't help if your carrier has no towers for 100 miles. Sounds like a backup will still be needed, either via another carrier or WxWorx.

It wont be this year since I won't be able to get out a ton, but next year, I plan to get an AT&T data plan for that reason. Based on where I tend to be, it will mainly be a backup, so I'll probably just do the prepaid route. The have a decent prepaid route that gives you 5GB a month. That's more than enough for my chasing. I've found over the years that I either have AT&T or Verizon signal. Never have I lost both. Before Verizon bought out Altell several years back, AT&T was the way to go in OK. Now it's a wash from what I see. TN and KY are in favor of Verizon, Indiana and Illinois slightly in favor of AT&T. I think my brother (with AT&T) got better signal in SE Kansas than I did (with Verizon) a few years ago, the last time we were both there at the same time.

 

[Todd Lemery]

Finally got the WeBoost 4G out for some exercise and was pretty happy with the results. I had coverage throughout my chase with Verizon signal. The few weak signals that there are in Southern Wisconsin and Northern Illinois were handled with no problems. That being said, I'm still concerned about the southern plains and wouldn't mind upgrading if there was something available.
Any luck with the FCC Gordon?