Baron v GRLevel 2/3

[Paul Sherman]

Hi Guys

This one has bugged me for about 3 years now and I am hoping some of you guys might be able to help out a little with us guys that travel from accross the Pond and Mostly have to rely on the Baron radar whilst on the move Chasing.
My question is this, are there any Radar Signatures from the Baron that look better than others when trying to decipher if the Storm is Probably/Possibly producing a Tornado, I know we get the Spinning Circles (Not always reliable) but to me when GR Is showing radar signatures that look like the flying Eagle or Hook it is pretty much bang on the money when Tornado reports subsequently come in.

This would be extremely useful when for instance it is really hard to see the Storm Visually.

For Instance has anyone got the Radar from 945pm of both the Baron and GRLevel 2/3 (Greensburg 4th May) so we can see the difference, I know Barons scans different parts of the Storm ,Just wondered how Different the radars looked.

Hope this makes sense.

Regards

Paul Sherman

 

[Andrea Griffa]

Hi Guys

This one has bugged me for about 3 years now and I am hoping some of you guys might be able to help out a little with us guys that travel from accross the Pond and Mostly have to rely on the Baron radar whilst on the move Chasing.
My question is this, are there any Radar Signatures from the Baron that look better than others when trying to decipher if the Storm is Probably/Possibly producing a Tornado, I know we get the Spinning Circles (Not always reliable) but to me when GR Is showing radar signatures that look like the flying Eagle or Hook it is pretty much bang on the money when Tornado reports subsequently come in.

This would be extremely useful when for instance it is really hard to see the Storm Visually.

For Instance has anyone got the Radar from 945pm of both the Baron and GRLevel 2/3 (Greensburg 4th May) so we can see the difference, I know Barons scans different parts of the Storm ,Just wondered how Different the radars looked.

Hope this makes sense.

Regards

Paul Sherman

Paul as regards me I can tell you that one thing is when you have a flying eagle shape and another thing is when you have a "normal" hook.
When you have a flying eagle it is very probable to have a well defined shape on both Baron and obviously on Grlevel 3 radar; Baron has not an incredible definition but it's sufficient to understand you are dealing with a very strong supercell with a very probable flying eagle.

Things change when you have more normal hooks, less defined on a common radar(not Baron). For instance some HP supercells have an hook echo less recongnizable also on GRlevel 3: sometimes only an expert eye is able to identify it. Well, it's just in those cases that Baron could mislead you: however I have to say that after some time you develop a good ability that allows you to discover also the most difficult shape on Baron. In effect hook echo is not the only signal that makes you understand that you have in front a supercell: V Notch is another valid indicator that could identify a probable supercell; a tight gradient of reflectivity is another valid element, a notch in the inflow region can't rule out a supercell. If you make an addition of these elements it becomes more simple to discern a supercell on Baron radar.

Finally it could be fantastic to have both Baron and Grlevel but I think this is a conquest we'll make within 5 years with the arrival of Satellite internet.

 

[Paul Sherman]

Hi Andrea

Yes that is a good point about the Inflow Notch on Baron, and have bagged a few Tornadoes from positioning ourselves in this area from our GPS Overlay in recent years, this is one thing the Baron Radar does well. I know you cant beat looking visually at Supercells in front of you, my main point was if 3 Discrete Supercells are within Striking distance and equally in very good areas (Unobstructed Inflow etc) is there one that would look better on a Baron radar than another if you could not see the storm due to poor visibility.

Regards

Paul Sherman

 

[Jay McCoy]

You will never get the detail of GR3 on the Baron simply because with their limited bandwidth they dont have same intensity levels. Once you hit 55dbz on baron it is all 1 color so seeing the difference between quarter size hail and baeball hail is impossible. Same as with smaller mesoscale features such as hok echos and flying eagles. You may see the generic outline of a hok forming or the telltale v notch but the small features like GR3 can show will not be seen on a Baron screen until they increase their bandwidth and in turn their intensety levels.

I have used both for a number of years and have learned that the baron is a great tool to get you somewhat close to a storm and is good for a wide area coverage but when your close i and need the details like dime vs. baseball hail or how well defiend a hook may be nothing compares to GR3. As wireless internet through cell cards and someday satellite become more widespread in coverage I see Barons WxWorx becoming a thing of the past for chasers. It was great when it came out saince we had live data everywhere compared to sporadic cell coverage but mobile companies are catching up quick.

When it coems to choosing one storm over another using just Barons. I have always used the meteorlogical factors to decide which. Whic will have better unrestricted inflow and which will have a better road network. In the 4 years I have used Barons I havent been able to discern any "tell-tale" features that rates one over another. basic v notches and hooks are at best lacking in detail. If I see what I think is a hook and it has 3 markers on it then I will assume it is a well defines rotation. Like I said the Barons is best at finding stroms but close in I want GR3.

 

[Andrea Griffa]

Hi Andrea

Yes that is a good point about the Inflow Notch on Baron, and have bagged a few Tornadoes from positioning ourselves in this area from our GPS Overlay in recent years, this is one thing the Baron Radar does well. I know you cant beat looking visually at Supercells in front of you, my main point was if 3 Discrete Supercells are within Striking distance and equally in very good areas (Unobstructed Inflow etc) is there one that would look better on a Baron radar than another if you could not see the storm due to poor visibility.

Regards

Paul Sherman

If you have only the Baron and if 3 discrete supercells are within striking distance, generally I choose: the one that has the best source of moisture, the best E-SE wind,the closest one to the boundary,the most isolated one,sometimes the southern one, especially if the shear leads the supercells to cross each other(the southern one often phagocytates the northern one).

 

[Jonathan Williams]

As wireless internet through cell cards and someday satellite become more widespread in coverage I see Barons WxWorx becoming a thing of the past for chasers. It was great when it came out saince we had live data everywhere compared to sporadic cell coverage but mobile companies are catching up quick.

I agree with you on the most part with that statement. Except that Baron probably will implement the BTI scale soon in Mobile Threat Net. You can read about the BTI on Barons website. It basically just ranks a tornado likeliness on a scale of 1-10 10 being the highest probability. That should help a bit. This is not official yet, but I have good word that it will probably happen and Baron is trying to get an update out before this season of storms.

Next being said the bandwidth is limited by Baron this is true. As they merge with Sirius everything could change though. Baron may triple or quadruple its bandwidth providing maybe high resolution data for one site of your choice along with the national composite. Just a thought.

Anyways Gr3 is by far the best to see those hooks, I agree. Maybe the technology will change though and the Meso's can help a lot, but its best to trust your instincts when you are near a storm and the Doppler is pretty much useless then.

 

[Jay McCoy]

I agree with you on the most part with that statement. Except that Baron probably will implement the BTI scale soon in Mobile Threat Net. You can read about the BTI on Barons website. It basically just ranks a tornado likeliness on a scale of 1-10 10 being the highest probability. That should help a bit. This is not official yet, but I have good word that it will probably happen and Baron is trying to get an update out before this season of storms.

Next being said the bandwidth is limited by Baron this is true. As they merge with Sirius everything could change though. Baron may triple or quadruple its bandwidth providing maybe high resolution data for one site of your choice along with the national composite. Just a thought.

Anyways Gr3 is by far the best to see those hooks, I agree. Maybe the technology will change though and the Meso's can help a lot, but its best to trust your instincts when you are near a storm and the Doppler is pretty much useless then.

I even told them I am willing to give up bandwidth used for things like satellite, winds, lightning etc.. just to add 4 colors to their radar levels.

So if they are are going to up their bandwidth and add some levels I am all for it. Will give me a reason to keep my WxWorx. As of now it is my backup for if/when I lose my data card connection and GR3. But thanks for the heads up. I had not heard about any of that.

 

[Bob Hartig]

Out of curiosity, when it comes to detail, what about GR2? I own both GR3 and GR2 (basic, not AE). In my mind, both have their advantages, downsides, and applications. GR3 has got the mesomarkers, TVSs, POH, and so forth. But GR2 shows all the tilts and gives a better resolution. There have been times when I've seen the markers pop up on GR3 and just scratched my head, because SRV wasn't indicating any rotation that I could see. GR2 can pick up on couplets that GR3 misses. Both are great tools, though I use GR3 more simply because it has the extra level three whizbangs.

 

[Bill Tabor]

Hi Guys
My question is this, are there any Radar Signatures from the Baron that look better than others when trying to decipher if the Storm is Probably/Possibly producing a Tornado, I know we get the Spinning Circles (Not always reliable) but to me when GR Is showing radar signatures that look like the flying Eagle or Hook it is pretty much bang on the money when Tornado reports subsequently come in.

Paul, the answer to your question is 'No'. When people refer to Threatnet as 'blob' chasing it is truly that. It has very little detail, and sometimes can be quite delayed from what you are seeing visually. I've used it and many other radars and truth is it can even be misleading. I've chased blobs that looked what I thought was 'better' than other blobs and had I had GR3 I would have known better, and because of it missed tornadoes. I will say that the shear markers (the little circles) are a decent indication of some type of rotation. If they are located in a part of the storm which would typically be inflow or possibly a meso area then this helps. Generally speaking the stronger the speeds and possibly seeing more than one in the same general area is also a stronger indicator. If I see 100+ speeds in an inflow part of the storm I get a bit more excited. Also the shear product may give an early indicator of rotation before you see the shear markers if located in the proper place on the storm. However like the rest said, you really have to pay attention to visual and atmospheric clues such as storm location, direction of movement, if it has inflow or outflow, near a boundary, position relative to other cells, strength of updraft, etc to really tell. GR3 or even Weathertap / NWS radar with velocity product can be really helpful for a second opinion to help confirm your suspicions.

When I 'blob' chase I usually base the likely hood of tornadoes on my forecast. If I know it is a strong day instability and dynamics wise, and a storm is located in a favorable area then anything that goes up 'in my area' is a likely tornadic storm. Threatnet and the blobs in this case are primarily useful just to get a quick location and heads up on developing storms. Satellite and Tops product can also be used before radar reflectivity to see that storms are building 'in your area'. I also use the various winds levels to see what the system is and help identify boundaries. It is all good and better than nothing, but you have to always keep in mind the limitations of what you are looking at. This is true particularly safety wise as I've seen Threatnet radar 20 minutes delayed. This can be a huge location difference from visual reality particularly with fast moving storms, and is even more of an issue when using for navigation at night or in low visibility environments.

PS: I might add that you can see higher reflectivities on Threatnet than 55 dbz if you look at the SCIT markers (click on them). They will tell various information about a storm such as speed, direction of movement, size of hail, and dbz intensity.

 

[rdale]

GR2 has more detail than GR3 because of the improved resolution and dbZ range in Level II data.

 

[Matthew Havin]

Responding to Jonathan Williams, I lead the development of the BTI at Baron, so if you or others have any questions I am the one to ask. I cannot comment on the future applications of the product at this time (such as "when will it be in Mobile Threat Net?"). It is currently being rolled out nationwide within the broadcast industry for use within VIPIR 5.0+ and FasTrac, and had huge success on the first day of use in Memphis, TN at WMC during the Super Tuesday outbreak. You can find out more on how the BTI did during the event at:

http://www.baronservices.com/bti2/index.php

 

[Jonathan Williams]

I even told them I am willing to give up bandwidth used for things like satellite, winds, lightning etc.. just to add 4 colors to their radar levels.

LOL,
Me too, I would give up all that other stuff for a high resolution data. I pray they implement velocity. They will have to do something, as cell phone data technology is coming far. The data was mainly developed for Mariners hints the package "Master Mariner" and Aviation, but I am pretty sure that storm chasers are the ones they need to cater to. If they had resolution that went up a few more DBZ and Velocity we would be set. That said I don't think you can blame Baron, but XM. I'm sure they don't understand what the data is and how valuable it is and how much more valuable it could be if upgraded. It would seem like they could add high resolution data and get rid of all that other stuff, but other people use it too so I don't know.

 

[rdale]

I would venture to say that mariners / aviation and EM are their biggest customers... And none of those groups need high res data or velocity. They'll probably continue to focus their push towards those u$er$.

 

[Matt Ziebell]

Paul, the answer to your question is 'No'. When people refer to Threatnet as 'blob' chasing it is truly that. It has very little detail, and sometimes can be quite delayed from what you are seeing visually.

I'm not that big a fan of WxWorx, but it's worth noting that WxWorx is capable of displaying classic radar echoes even while using a lower resolution than the level III data (2km compared to 1km). This certainly isn't the case every time, but consider the following two examples I looked into:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Level III 0.5 degree reflectivity tilt from KBIS showing a v-notch and subtle rear flank appendage:

Same supercell and time as shown by WxWorx (unsmoothed) showing the v-notch and a more vivid appendage:

-------------------------------------------------------------
Level III 0.5 degree reflectivity tilt from KMBX showing hook echo and BWER:

Same supercell and time as shown by WxWorx (unsmoothed) showing hook echo and BWER:

-------------------------------------------------------------
What needs to be kept in mind is that some chasers using GRLevel III may only look at the lowest tilt worth of data for reasons such as simplicity and/or personal safety. In this case echoes aloft then go unnoticed whereas WxWorx will display some of this data--hence the more vivid hook on WxWorx in the KBIS example.

The final product on WxWorx is actually not a traditional composite reflectivity image, but instead a filtered version. As would be expected in these examples, the actual composite reflectivities rendered many of the details obsolete. I'm unaware of exactly what reflectivity thresholds at various tilts are used by Baron to decide the final image, but we all know most ground clutter echoes and fine line boundaries (including OFBs) are weeded out.

 

[Paul Austin]

Matt, are those images from the regular ThreatNet product or some ThreatNet plus version? I've never seen that white threshold detail displayed.

EDIT: Oh, it looks like those images are from the aviation package. Your gps marker looks like a plane. Is this correct?

I agree with everyone about the blobs and would love to see velocity data. The one really nice feature of the ThreatNet system is the complete coverage and reliability. By reliability, I'm not referring to such details as the radar delays, but rather the insusceptibility of the system to areal power outages and communication system damage (cell towers). I personally prefer the Level II imagery, then the Level III, then finally the ThreatNet. But whether I use the Level II or III, I've got the ThreatNet as either primary or backup at least for now.