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2012-05-19 FCST: KS/NE/OK/TX

Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
3,417
Location
Springfield, IL
Not real impressed with Saturday from a chase standpoint. Tornado threat looks marginal at best. Strong capping may prevent surface based thunderstorms across much of the warm sector except perhaps central KS after dark, where the NAM shows the cap opening a crack and low level instability persisting into the evening hours.
http://68.226.77.253/models/eta/central/CENTRAL_ETA212_ATMOS_LSI_63HR.gif
http://68.226.77.253/models/eta/central/CENTRAL_ETA212_0-3KM_CAPE_63HR.gif

Strong forcing on the cold front, flow parallel to the cold front, and surface winds veering along this front will probably result in a rather solid, linear line of storms. Other issues include extremely shallow moisture depth, and tiny hodographs due to weak upper level winds.

Further south down the dryline into OK/TX, thermonuclear cap and large dewpoint spreads should preclude any surface based supercells leaving just elevated hailers. Looks like a See Text kind of day for tornadoes, but a Slight for hail and wind, and maybe some significant hail with the steep mid level lapse rates, moderate instability and solid storm coverage on the cold front.
 
As usual Skip has covered the main factors, annoying lack of moisture now that we have some UL support but a chance to see some severe hail gets me excited after this down period. I feel that things have a brief window to become more interesting around dark, especially if that hodo opens up a bit more as previous runs had depicted. A casual afternoon cruise for potentially deep convection sounds lovely.
 
Both the 12z NAM & GFS are showing 65+ surface dewpoints across central kansas. My concern lies more with the capping than the lack of moisture we've been seeing.

700mb temps are better with the NAM- slot of 5-10 C
The GFS is showing a greater chance of 10-13C

The 850mb temps are the killer. Both models are showing 20-25C.
That 20 degree C mark is a killer at 850, let alone possibly up to 25!

I'll keep watching and hoping and if it even looks marginal I may make a short run to Terrence Cooks neighborhood, Lyons, KS.
 
The biggest issue is the shallow nature of the moisture, intense heating and steep lapse rates will mix out the dews in a depressing fashion. Low level pooling ahead of the front is the only reason any model depjcts the decent surface moisture. Capping certainly should be absurd, but convergence and UL support will fire something by early evening and late afternoon. And as Eric mentioned living close to a setup in May when its been hot and boring = fun storms.
 
I'd be cautious about believing the model forecast dewpoints valid at or near 00Z. The GFS has a notorious high bias. Looking at verification statistics over eastern Kansas for the last 30 days, the 12Z GFS run raw grid forecasts at 12, 36, and 60 hours (all valid at 00Z) has a positive bias of 8 to 10 degrees. The NAM is not as bad but the raw grid forecast dewpoints have a positive bias at the same times from 3 to 4 degrees. Since the dewpoint figures into the instability calculations and the associated CIN/cap calculations, one should use those with appropriate caution of well. The model output statistic (MOS) guidance usually verifies better. For Saturday evening at 7 PM CDT, the raw grid dewpoint forecasts for Great Bend KS (GBD) are 68 and 64 on the GFS and NAM respectively. The statistical guidance from those models has 57 and 56 for the GFS and NAM MOS.

I'm not saying that GBD won't hit 60 or the low 60s for a dewpoint. One has to look at observations from the Gulf, trajectories and moisture depth as well. I'm just saying that be careful in inferring too much from the raw model dewpoint forecast grids valid at 00Z.
 
...large dewpoint spreads should preclude any surface based supercells leaving just elevated hailers.

Skip, I'm not singling you out as this shows up on forums quite a bit from many folks. Heck, even some forecasters I've worked with believe high-based convection = elevated convection. I'm sure most people simply abuse the terms when in fact they do understand the difference.

The high-based storms Sat afternoon will definitely be surface based with LCLs as high as 600mb along the dryline. Ugghh, I'm having flashbacks of May '06. :( The only cure is next week's mouth-watering setup. This lackluster pattern of late will break, and probably break big.
 
Sorry, I should have separated my thoughts better. I wasn't implying that the large dewpoint spreads, while making for high based storms, were directly resulting in elevated storms. More that the thermonuclear cap and lack of low level instability, made worse by the low dews, was resulting in a stable surface layer, resulting in updrafts drawing their inflow above the inversion. I know powerful updrafts can force this stable surface layer up, resulting in that photogenic, laminar structure. However, in the absence of any low level instability and a stout inversion, aren't these updrafts going to be predominantly elevated? I was always under the impression that you needed a buoyant boundary layer and most of the inhibition eroded to get surface based convection. Is that thinking fundamentally wrong? With LSI's of 5-7 and 3km Cape close to 0 down the dryline in western OK/TX PH, I would have bet money that the tornado threat there was pretty close to 0 due in part to elevated updrafts. I've never seen conditions close to that produce. I've noticed the NAM has a tendency to overdo the capping when it first comes into range of an event, but it's got a long way to go before it's down to something I thought would have a shot at producing a surface based supercell.
 
Sorry, I should have separated my thoughts better. I wasn't implying that the large dewpoint spreads, while making for high based storms, were directly resulting in elevated storms. More that the thermonuclear cap and lack of low level instability, made worse by the low dews, was resulting in a stable surface layer, resulting in updrafts drawing their inflow above the inversion. I know powerful updrafts can force this stable surface layer up, resulting in that photogenic, laminar structure. However, in the absence of any low level instability and a stout inversion, aren't these updrafts going to be predominantly elevated? I was always under the impression that you needed a buoyant boundary layer and most of the inhibition eroded to get surface based convection. Is that thinking fundamentally wrong? With LSI's of 5-7 and 3km Cape close to 0 down the dryline in western OK/TX PH, I would have bet money that the tornado threat there was pretty close to 0 due in part to elevated updrafts. I've never seen conditions close to that produce. I've noticed the NAM has a tendency to overdo the capping when it first comes into range of an event, but it's got a long way to go before it's down to something I thought would have a shot at producing a surface based supercell.

The truth of this statement depends on what you mean by "absence of low-level instability". The soundings showing near ICT for 21-00Z in both the NAM and GFS show a fairly thoroughly-mixed PBL. The thermodynamic structure of well-mixed PBLs is that of very little change of theta-e with height. The amount of elevated instability is usually a function of the height of the max theta-e, which in the warm season is almost always at the surface or in the PBL during the daytime. The soundings for this case are consistent with that. Therefore, in the soundings I looked at, I didn't see any increased instability for parcels originating above the PBL. That's usually the case when a strong cap takes the form of an inversion like that. While it is warmer, it is also much drier, so parcels originating in the inversion layer usually have significantly lower theta-e, and thus less CAPE, if any, than parcels originating in the PBL. As an example, several of the south-central US 00Z soundings from tonight exhibit a slight capping inversion with a hydrolapse (dramatic decrease of moisture within the lowest 100-300 mb AGL). If you check the SPC site for these, there's a plot of theta-e vs. height that shows the sudden decrease in theta-e at the hydrolapse as well. Therefore, without strong enough forcing, these soundings represent the uncertainty in the forecast between no convection at all (elevated or surface-based) and high-, but still surface-, based convection.

Usually the only time you see significant elevated instability to the point where storms would be elevated is in the cold season when there is theta-e advection over a cold surface, or north of warm fronts in the warm season. Those soundings are usually pretty characteristic and similar: they feature a strong inversion not far above the surface (i.e., generally in the 30-100 mb range AGL) with a strong moisture inversion as well, and with approximately moist-adiabatic lapse rates above the "peak" of the inversion. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, but I can't find a good example of a sounding that illustrates my point.
 
Although marginal, I think there are some decent chase possibilities for Saturday. The WRF shows a band of 40 kt SW winds shifting across Kansas by late afternoon from the OK Panhandle to southeast Nebraska. There should be southeasterly winds near the predicted low over the Texas Panhandle by 18Z. The GFS (12Z) shows the low still over the Panhandle by 00Z while the 00Z WRF shows that low decreasing by 00Z and another low in extreme northeastern Nebraska. Forecast CAPE is decent (at least 1500) from Oklahoma/Texas border at the base of the Panhandle to extreme northeastern Nebraska(60 degree dewpoints along most of this area.) Predicted SRH is 500 to 750 along a narrow region of eastern Nebraska. I'm currently awaiting the 00Z GFS.
I don’t like the SW 850 mb winds across the region except for northeastern Nebraska into Iowa per the GFS and WRF and I have concerns about moisture and cap. At this point, I have two main targets. One is ahead of a possible dryline push starting around Woodward, Oklahoma. The other target (Sioux City) has better shear and still decent CAPE with more southerly 850 mb winds though the frontal passage may be too soon in that area.

Bill Hark
 
Thanks for your input Matt and Jeff. I am certainly an amateur when it comes to forecasting and value having my crude understanding of the atmosphere nudged in the right direction by those actually educated in it.

Usually the only time you see significant elevated instability to the point where storms would be elevated is in the cold season when there is theta-e advection over a cold surface, or north of warm fronts in the warm season.

How about in the dry air on and just west of the dryline? That convection originates in the EML doesn't it? It would root to the surface in the moist air east of the dryline right? In this case the extremely stout capping inversion would keep it elevated wouldn't it? Earlier runs showed some convection firing in the dry Texas panhandle air. I assumed this was occurring with elevated instability in the EML that was more moist than the dry boundary layer. I see some potential near Wichita for supercells and even a tornado or two provided a linear storm mode doesn't dominate. I was under the impression that the convection further south originating over the dry desert air would never become rooted to the surface due to strong capping though.
 
Thanks for your input Matt and Jeff. I am certainly an amateur when it comes to forecasting and value having my crude understanding of the atmosphere nudged in the right direction by those actually educated in it.

How about in the dry air on and just west of the dryline? That convection originates in the EML doesn't it? It would root to the surface in the moist air east of the dryline right? In this case the extremely stout capping inversion would keep it elevated wouldn't it? Earlier runs showed some convection firing in the dry Texas panhandle air. I assumed this was occurring with elevated instability in the EML that was more moist than the dry boundary layer. I see some potential near Wichita for supercells and even a tornado or two provided a linear storm mode doesn't dominate. I was under the impression that the convection further south originating over the dry desert air would never become rooted to the surface due to strong capping though.

MODS: I apologize if this doesn't belong in this thread. Move it if appropriate.

I don't think this would happen. The air mass at and west of the dryline would be very warm and deeply mixed. Therefore, it would be almost unheard of to have elevated instability, and any convection that developed in the cT air mass would be surface based. If that convection managed to cross the dryline (which I've never really witnessed myself before but I don't see why it can't happen) there's a good chance the storm would die since it would get choked off by the capping inversion over the mT air mass. However, if the storm was well-established with a wide and very strong updraft, the corresponding surface convergence and momentum of the updraft air below the LFC may be enough to force parcels to overcome their CIN and keep the storm going. However, the storm would still be surface-based then, since, as I described in my previous post, it is highly unlikely that with an EML in place, elevated parcels would be more unstable.

I should probably clarify the statements I made in my previous post. In the mT air east of the dryline, you certainly can have elevated parcels that are part of the capping inversion just below the EML base that possess CAPE. However, those parcels will pretty much always have less CAPE and more CIN than surface based parcels. It seems natural to think that the most likely parcel to reach its LFC and spawn convection will be the most unstable one (most CAPE, least CIN). That favors the surface-based parcel over any elevated parcels in almost every situation, at least during the day. In the evening, convergence at the nose of a LLJ or some sort of low-mid-level frontogenesis may provide an elevated trigger. To illustrate this, I've put together a sample analysis of a typical sounding taken from an mT air mass capped off by an EML from recently:

oun_2012050307.gif


I've also marked three interesting parcel paths. The mixed-layer parcel representative of PBL/surface conditions is in black. It is the most unstable as it has the most CAPE. The blue one represents the next parcel immediately above the top of the mixed-layer. Granted, I'm doing this entirely visually (not using numerical data, so there may be small errors), but it appears the theta-e of that parcel is slightly lower than that of the parcel coming from the PBL (it is following a cooler moist-adiabat). The very next parcel above that in green obviously has much less CAPE. It's hard to visually compare the amount of CIN between the three parcels since they have different LCLs and LFCs, but it very well seems like the blue parcel just above the top of the mixed layer has a little less CIN than does the mixed-layer parcel. However, if you count the amount of additional resistance to upward motion by buoyant forces in the layer between the origination of each parcel and it's LCL, the CIN difference really shrinks between those parcels. Also note that those parcels are very close to each other vertically, and under strong daytime heating, it's pretty likely that the blue parcel would eventually mix into the PBL and become part of it anyway. You can see how even a slight vertical distance above the blue parcel, the green parcel has far less CAPE and probably just as much, if not more, CIN than the parcels below. You could imagine the parcel path for the parcel immediately above that one and see how quickly the level of instability drops off.

What the above shows is that there really is very little "elevated instability" when an EML overlays an mT air mass. Not to mention, if one of those parcels that is sitting just above the top of the PBL were to activate before a surface-based parcel, once an updraft became established (i.e., with convergence at and below its originating level), there wouldn't be much additional CIN for a mixed-layer (black) or surface-based parcel to have to work through to also activate. Most likely the forcing provided by the established updraft would be sufficient for those lower parcels to activate, and you'd have a surface-based storm in no time even if the very first parcels may have been slightly elevated.
 
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Have liked northwest/western OK for days now as the GFS has been amazingly consistent in place of cold front/dryline intersection up around Woodward with the dryline extending south of there. Exact placement and speed of the wave will be key as will as quality of moisture return. For the past few days the GFS has been pegging 65 dews into this area while the NAM has been much weaker on moisture return with dews to around 60. Moisture did indeed mix out this afternoon across TX/OK as it's still shallow and the good moisture (dews >65 degrees are still confined to the gulf coast). The RAP is trying to get mid 60 dews up to CDS/SPS by 16z tomorrow but I would think those would mix out as sfc heating increases.

Don't like further north up into KS given the mid-level flow is parallel to the initiating boundary as storms could get messy as things fire in the late afternoon. The south target looks much better IMO for something discrete. Both models have been showing a strong convective signal in western OK after 0z.

Tomorrow sort of reminds me of 4/25/09 in the TX PH (larger western trof with southwest flow over the area) but dryline/cold front intersection fired off several discrete supercells but couldn't produce due to the high T/Td spreads. If we can get dews around 61/62 tomorrow evening there should be a tornado threat with any discrete supercell near/after sunset as bases lower and the LLJ increases. Looking at a storm relative sense based off the hodographs from Woodward/Elk City/Altus, if a storm can turn right it could do some good things at/after 0z tomorrow evening. The amount of backing along the dryline along I-40 is pretty impressive in response to the p-falls across the TX PH as the sfc low becomes established tomorrow afternoon/evening.

We are staying in Hays tonight and will head south in the morning.
 
After looking at the 00Z NAM, I am still hopeful for some nice supercells on Saturday. There should be southeasterly surface winds in the western part of Oklahoma extending into the eastern part of the Texas Panhandle and dewpoints 60-65 ahead of the dryline with 2000 CAPE. I am now more bullish on the cap breaking that far south as both the 12Z/18Z GFS and 00Z NAM show precip though the GFS stops close to the OK?KS border. I am concerned that the latest run of the NAM (0-1km) EHI and shows a weaker but still present localized area in south-central Nebraska that shifts northeastward by 3Z.

I would probably target Buffalo in northwestern Oklahoma. Of course that may change after I check AM data.

Bill Hark
 
This is an interesting day with the potential for tornadicsupercells before a quick transition to linear storms. The 12Z WRF shows convection is a north southline (Nebraska through Kansas just east of Dodge City and into the western partof the Texas Panhandle) by 2200Z. The line slowly shifts eastward with asouthern terminus about the level of Kiowa County in Kansas. If one is tocompletely believe the model, it also predicts an isolated supercell in EllisCounty, Oklahoma at 00Z. The 12Z HRRR shows an isolated cell 2130Z near GreatBend and a later isolated cell forming by 2330Z near Vici in northwesternOklahoma. At this point, I am going to head west from Wichita to either Prattor Greensburg and then make a decision about staying in that area or just tothe north or shifting south toward my old target of Buffalo, OK. There also maybe an opportunity in south central Nebraska but I’ll stick with my southerntarget.
 
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