Tornadoes In/Near Snowstorms-Possible?

[Saul Trabal]

Hey, given what a wacky hurricane season it's been, this should prove nothing's out of the question. :wink:

Obviously, what I'm talking about is an E-X-T-R-E-M-E-L-Y rare event, if it's happened at all. Have there been instances where tornadoes (obviously weak ones) would occur during thundersnow events?

If so-where and when?

 

[Andy Wehrle]

I have heard of something like this happening in Oklahoma in winter 1975...wouldn't know exactly when. Altus, OK was hit by a tornado. I heard about this from Gary England's book Weathering the Storm-Tornadoes, Television and Turmoil:

It was extremely unusual. Temperatures were still in the forties, snow was beginning to fall, and tornadoes were tearing through the cold night air. In meteorology, it is wise to expect the unexpected.

 

[Andrew Khan]

I've 'heard' of such an event before as well....when I was about 10 I read an article in a book, that was found in an old abandoned library, in SE TN. It said they are possible, but not likely to ever happen. It had one recorded event, I beleive.

 

[Mike Smith]

I remember the January, 1975 event well. There were tornadoes in far southwest Oklahoma and some evidence into the south central part of the State. What is unknown is the exact conditions at the time of the tornado. Yes, it was certainly snowing within an hour after the tornado, but I doubt it was snowing at the time and location of the tornado.

The tops were high enough we could see them on a converted aircraft radar from Wichita -- a very unusual winter event.

Mike

 

[Mike Johnston]

The great Woodward tornado outbreak, which spun a path from just NW of Pampa, TX to near Kingman, KS, evidently had snowfall just in it's wake around Woodward, OK.

Important to disgtinguish between an event where snow is part of the overall system producing the tornado vs. snowfall within the same cell as the tornado. Regarding the former, there have been ample examples. Regarding the latter, I know of no such example and would be extremely surprised if there were any documented.

 

[Dan Robinson]

A tornado passing over snow already on the ground from a previous winter storm might be in the realm of possibility. It would take something like an unseasonably northward-protruding warm sector ahead of a strong surface low (IE a 11/10/02-like event) to suddenly overrun the swath of a major snowstorm from a few days prior. If 1.) the snow on the ground was deep enough to not completely melt away during the warm temps, and 2.) if the setup was strong enough to compensate for limited heating due to reflective snow-covered ground, you might get true 'snownadoes'. The damage path from the air would look impressive.

February 2003 in OH/KY/WV was a good example that came close (in a relative sense) to doing this. We had a big winter storm event starting with heavy sleet/snow on the 16th, followed by a damaging ice storm on the 19th. On the 20th, temps began warming into the 70s, and on the 22nd, severe thunderstorms moved through with damaging winds and hail. There were still piles of plowed snow on the ground along roads and in parking lots when frequent CGs were crashing down all around. To top it off, the morning after the storms (the 23rd) it was snowing again.

http://wvlightning.com/2003/feb22cg.shtml

If we'd have had more snow beforehand, I would have had a few lightning shots with snow in the scene.

 

[David Dildine]

From last winter, a blizzard warning and severe thunderstorm warning in the same county. A tornado was reported west of Goodland, meanwhile, blizzard conditions were ongoing near CO/KS border (20 or so mile difference)...


BULLETIN - EAS ACTIVATION REQUESTED
SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WARNING
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE PUEBLO CO
114 PM MDT SUN APR 10 2005

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN PUEBLO HAS ISSUED A

* SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WARNING FOR...
WESTERN PROWERS COUNTY IN SOUTHEAST COLORADO

* UNTIL 215 PM MDT.

* AT 113 PM MDT...NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR SHOWED A SEVERE THUNDERSTORM CAPABLE OF PRODUCING HALF DOLLAR SIZE HAIL. THIS STORM WAS CENTERED 17 MILES SOUTH OF LAMAR...AND WAS MOVING NORTH AT 15 MPH.

* THE SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WILL REMAIN OVER MAINLY RURAL AREAS OF WESTERN PROWERS COUNTY.

IF POSSIBLE...WITHOUT RISKING YOUR SAFETY...PROTECT PROPERTY BEFORE THE WEATHER HITS. GET IN A STURDY STRUCTURE AND AWAY FROM WINDOWS. AN INTERIOR ROOM ON THE LOWEST FLOOR...OR A BASEMENT CAN OFFER THE BEST PROTECTION.


---


THIS HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK IS FOR SOUTH CENTRAL AND SOUTHEAST COLORADO.

...A BLIZZARD WARNING IS IN EFFECT UNTIL 6 AM MDT MONDAY FOR THE INTERSTATE 25 CORRIDOR FROM MONUMENT TO RATON PASS. THIS
BLIZZARD WARNING INCLUDES BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO THE FOLLOWING CITIES OF COLORADO SPRINGS...PUEBLO...WALSENBURG AND TRINIDAD.

THUNDER WITH LIGHT TO MODERATE SNOW AND SLEET WILL CONTINUE THROUGH 3 PM MDT (4 PM CDT). FREQUENT LIGHTNING IS ALSO OCCURRING. ACCORDING TO KIT CARSON COUNTY SHERIFF DEPARTMENT INTERSTATE 70 FROM BURLINGTON COLORADO...WEST TO DENVER IS CLOSED.

$$

 

[Rob Satkus]

Found this in the April, 1987 edition of Storm Data:

6NW Bay Mills, Chippewa county, MI:
" A witness saw a funnel touch down briefly on the south shore of Whitefish Bay during a snow squall. A mobile home was unroofed and insulation sucked from its walls. The funnel lifted immediately, but was visible aloft for several minutes." (F0, 0.1 mile path, 10yds wide, 13:45EST)

Rob

 

[Jeremy Lemanski]

Found this in the April, 1987 edition of Storm Data:

6NW Bay Mills, Chippewa county, MI:
" A witness saw a funnel touch down briefly on the south shore of Whitefish Bay during a snow squall. A mobile home was unroofed and insulation sucked from its walls. The funnel lifted immediately, but was visible aloft for several minutes." (F0, 0.1 mile path, 10yds wide, 13:45EST)

Rob

I don't know if that would count, because it would have been likely a waterspout that moved onshore, not a tornado in the sense that everyone is referring to, such as ones spawned from thunderstorms/supercells.

 

[Robert Dewey]

Found this in the April, 1987 edition of Storm Data:

6NW Bay Mills, Chippewa county, MI:
" A witness saw a funnel touch down briefly on the south shore of Whitefish Bay during a snow squall. A mobile home was unroofed and insulation sucked from its walls. The funnel lifted immediately, but was visible aloft for several minutes." (F0, 0.1 mile path, 10yds wide, 13:45EST)

Rob

I don't know if that would count, because it would have been likely a waterspout that moved onshore, not a tornado in the sense that everyone is referring to, such as ones spawned from thunderstorms/supercells.

I'm not sure, but once a waterspout moves over land and does damage, it's considered a tornado... But unless it was induced be a mesocyclone, it wouldn't last long and would be pretty week (the F0 rating, for example). In this case, it was obviously a tornado because it was given an F-scale rating, width, track length, etc..

 

[Jeremy Lemanski]

Found this in the April, 1987 edition of Storm Data:

6NW Bay Mills, Chippewa county, MI:
" A witness saw a funnel touch down briefly on the south shore of Whitefish Bay during a snow squall. A mobile home was unroofed and insulation sucked from its walls. The funnel lifted immediately, but was visible aloft for several minutes." (F0, 0.1 mile path, 10yds wide, 13:45EST)

Rob

I don't know if that would count, because it would have been likely a waterspout that moved onshore, not a tornado in the sense that everyone is referring to, such as ones spawned from thunderstorms/supercells.

I'm not sure, but once a waterspout moves over land and does damage, it's considered a tornado... But unless it was induced be a mesocyclone, it wouldn't last long and would be pretty week (the F0 rating, for example). In this case, it was obviously a tornado because it was given an F-scale rating, width, track length, etc..

What i was referring to when i said it wouldn't count was Saul Trabal question about tornadoes in snow producing storms. Sure, a waterspout produced by a LES squall, band, whatever that moves onshore and produces damage is a tornado, but its not a Meso. produced tornado, which i assume everyone is talking about in this thread, a meso produced tornado which the parent storm also produces snow.

 

[David Dildine]

I don't think lapse rates could be steep enough if the near-surface temp was close to freezing, permitting snowfall. That would be a crazy-cold updraft. Notorious lake effect waterspouts of lore are about as close as it can get.

 

[Greg Stumpf]

My first waterspout was during a snow event in Oswego NY in 1983. The spout was about 1-2 miles offshore, and we were receiving light snow. Even got a picture, but I don't have it digitally scanned to share at the moment.

 

[David Dildine]

wow... you really need turn that scanner on.

 

[Steven Williams]

I'm not sure, but once a waterspout moves over land and does damage, it's considered a tornado

Yes, many of the damaging tornadoes in NZ start as waterspouts and drift in off the sea with damage upto F2. It must be possible to get a mesocyclonic waterspout although most of them are non mesocyclonic.