Tornado Or Not?

Dann Cianca

Hi,
I just wanted everyone's opinion on this. On April 9th, a "cold air funnel" was reported near Kalispell, Montana in the vicinity of a field of showers (Radar: http://www.rap.ucar.edu/weather/rad...r=black&endDate=20080410&endTime=1&duration=2). I'm not disputing the fact that it may be a "cold air funnel", though I wouldn't rule out a landspout. But from the image, it is obviously touching the ground. Would that not make it a tornado, even if it is a NST/landspout?

News Story Here: (with image)
http://www.dailyinterlake.com/articles/2008/04/11/news/news03.txt


Missoula, MT NWS LSR:

NWUS55 KMSO 101933
LSRMSO

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MISSOULA MT
133 PM MDT THU APR 10 2008

..TIME... ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE... ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION..ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0630 PM FUNNEL CLOUD 4 NW KALISPELL 48.24N 114.37W
04/09/2008 FLATHEAD MT PUBLIC

PUBLIC TOOK PICTURES FROM COSTCO PARKING LOT OF COLD AIR
FUNNEL OR LAND SPOUT THAT TOUCHED THE GROUND IN AN OPEN
LAND AREA NEAR KALISPELL. NO DAMAGE WAS REPORTED.





Correct me if I'm wrong ...

Thanks,
Dann.
 
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I've seen a few of those in Washington, near the PSCZ and out east of the Cascades. Yet the local NWS offices still consider them NOT to be tornadoes.
I've kind of given up on calling them in for this reason, but still enjoy the catch in a "not so typical" geographic location in the US.

I'd call it a tornado.
 
This reminds me of a time in my youth. It had to be in the mid to early 90's while growing up in Butte, Montana. It was a similar day ... showery weather, grauple if I remember right. I ran outside due to a call from my father saying there was a funnel cloud. Sure enough, there it was to the south of town. There was a ton of congestus with snow showers. It was documented in local media and many people witnessed it (though to this day, there seems to be no record available on the internet: I've searched high and low)

A few witness reports said that it touched down, but there was never an official tornado report from it. I wonder if it was a similar situation and the weather service (missoula) had a specific protocol regarding "cold air funnels".

I'd love to find more info on that old case.
 
I agree with RDale. It extends from the base of a cloud, it is a violently rotating
column of air in contact with the ground. No longer a funnel at all.

We had a number of them toss cars around at a dealership some years back. They
can do some damage, though rare.

Tim
 
If it's on the ground it's not a funnel.

If it's connected to a cloud base (regardless of any other 'severe weather' ongoing from the same area) it's a tornado. I know the scientific reasons are different, but the result of this "cold air funnel" is no different than a landspout.

I'm tiring of these cases....I think it should just be a "tornado" and call it a day. Those who lose sleep over full condensation and f-strength can do the extra leg work to sift out the "fake" tornadoes from the data.
 
We could make up all sorts of new classifications ... cold air tornadoes ... medium air tornadoes ... luke warm air ... etc. I e-mailed the local NWS for clarification (as it seemed like the newspaper had talked to them for the article). If they're not busy, maybe I'll see a response.
 
The problem is when the public see's "tornado reported" they think of a tornado that is going to destroy stuff. I'll drive through such a landspout/tornado/vortex anyday.
 
You're a braver man than I. Landspouts seem so harmless but man they can get going as well some strong tornadoes. Maybe I'm just a wimp.
 
Kenny Drake said:
The problem is when the public see's "tornado reported" they think of a tornado that is going to destroy stuff. I'll drive through such a landspout/tornado/vortex anyday.
Click to expand...

I've heard a lot of retarded things in my day ... *ahem*

... most if not all the tornadoes that the Denver metro-area see are landspout (non-supercell tornadoes) One such event in 1988 produced 4 nst's, two rated at F2 and one F3. (Szoke 2006*) A furniture store was heavily damaged as well as many homes near Broadway/Evans.

So, tough guy, before you drive through any such landspout/tornado/vortex please consider the taxpayers who will foot the bill of the emergency crews called to cut you out of your destroyed chase vehicle.

Thanks in advance.


*THE DENVER CYCLONE AND TORNADOES 25 YEARS LATER: THE CONTINUED CHALLENGE OF PREDICTING NONSUPERCELL TORNADOES
Edward J. Szoke 2006
 
These type of manifestations occasionally occur in the UK in the summer. They normally occur within a slack area of low pressure that is filling, but contains rPm air that is quite moist. The slack area of low pressure is nomally coincident with an upper cold pool, with light winds throughout the depth of the convective atmosphere. Convergence, such as sea breezes or decaying fronts assists the development of these phenomena, but as soon as precipitation forms within the cloud that they are pendant from, they readily collapse

Normally these appear as just funnel clouds, but occasionally they do touch down, but are generally very weak and cause little damage. However, one, whose damage I investigated back in 1991 almost destroyed a well built stable, seriously damaged trees, took out a wall, overturned a medium sized lorry, as well as other misdemenours. It attained a strength of T3, roughly the top end of an EF1. However these types of tornadoes, and that IS what they are, very rarely last for more than a few minutes on the ground as friction overcomes their weak circulation.

N.
 
I would certainly call it a tornado.

I came across one on the ground in a field South of Guymen Ok in 2005 while heading to CA. It was rolling through a field right on the ground near the power sub station you see next to the tree line. I called it in to the local sheriffs office and they sent a trooper out within 5 minutes who was a trained weather spotter for the county and could still see it in funnel form.

I let him know it had been on the ground and nearly dissipated and was again then re strengthening as he watched. He notified dispatch who was already on the phone with the weather service. Based on their radar they refused to issue a warning because it couldn't be there even though it was on the edge of town. Needless to say the trooper was very upset about the warning refusal. This never touched down again but did persist in funnel form another 5 plus minutes pulling up and dropping over houses before it finally died out.

landspout001.jpg


Personally I believe it should have been issued as well. It was strong enough on the ground to toss things around that would be big enough to possibly maim or kill someone especially in a populated area. Has it been out in the open country it would have been no problem.
 
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Yeah no doubt tornado Dann...in fact.....the caption under the photo is a really poor piece of journalism. Blatantly saying "no this is not a tornado" when clearly this tornado is on the ground raising a debris column. Then this odd factoid "Those that do reach the ground behave like weak tornadoes, with winds often 50 mph or slower." Not sure where this comes from. :confused:
 
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Thanks for having a look, gentlemen. You'd think that they would be especially sensitive to tornadoes in the area after a supercell tornado did a lot of damage in the town of Polson (on the south end of Flathead Lake ... where Kalispell is on the north end) before heading out onto the lake as a "supercell tornado over water" and capsizing a boat. That was pretty big news in the area last year.
 
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