Super Tornadoes

[DNewman]

I have really been interested in researching this term given to the most extreme tornadoes " super tornado" lately. In all actuality no man can put a limit on how powerful a tornado can actually be. Nobody knew that prior to the 1999 Moore Oklahoma tornado, that a tornadoes winds could actually get up to 318 mph! That was thought to be inconceivable for the time. So what new wind measurements await us in the future? What I'm trying to get too, is that is there a possibility that you could get the extreme super tornado of all time that for example plows right through downtown Dallas where there's practically nothing but tall skyscrapers. Is there a possibility that a tornado with winds (500 mph+) could destroy skyscrapers? Of course no one may even record the winds of such a tornado, so no man will actually know what the winds were if every sky scraper in downtown Dallas was leveled or destroyed. But every building, even skyscrapers have a limit on the maximum amount of force that can be forced upon them correct? So if this is true, can an extensive downtown area line Dallas be destroyed by a super tornado? My last quick question is, since super tornadoes have the possibility to be extremely large. Can they get up to 3,4, and even 5miles wide?(if the entire mesocyclone touches the ground).
I know this is a lot and I apologize, but these questions have been on my mind for so long now. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[rdale]

No, a 500 mph tornado cannot happen. A 5 mile wide tornado cannot happen.

 

[DNewman]

That really helps a lot rdale thanks for that detailed explanation.

 

[Dave C]

What detailed explanation are you expecting? You really only asked 2 specific questions, and you got two succinct answers. We have a good sampling of tornado wind speeds form radar advancements. We also have research into damage and its relation to wind speed - in fact the EF scale is based primarily upon damage assessment to determine wind speed. The recent Reno, OK tornado, at 2.6 miles wide, is the widest on record and it was an extremely rare case - it was also a multiple vortex tornado. 50 years of tornado damage assessment gives us plenty of data to know that a 5 mile wide tornado is fantastically unlikely if not impossible - even when the entire meso descends. The same goes for wind speeds: while there has been some argument that vortices within a tornado could be in the range of 400-600 mph, no reliable measurement has been made of such winds. The highest radar measured speeds have been in the neighborhood of 300-325 mph. The point is that you can dream up whatever fantasies you want, but to be reasonable you have to draw the line somewhere. We have good observations and data and maybe imagining a storm a small bit further than the extremely rare cases we see is reasonable, but I don't think 500mph and 5 miles is reasonable.

If you want to know the physics behind why such a tornado cannot happen, well perhaps someone here is a fluid dynamics expert - the atmosphere and convective systems are essentially fluid systems.

 

[Scott Taylor]

Your "super tornado" can happen, just not on our planet (atmospheric limitations perhaps?). If you want to read about super tornadoes, then check out what happens on our neighboring planets. =)

 

[DNewman]

What detailed explanation are you expecting? You really only asked 2 specific questions, and you got two succinct answers. We have a good sampling of tornado wind speeds form radar advancements. We also have research into damage and its relation to wind speed - in fact the EF scale is based primarily upon damage assessment to determine wind speed. The recent Reno, OK tornado, at 2.6 miles wide, is the widest on record and it was an extremely rare case - it was also a multiple vortex tornado. 50 years of tornado damage assessment gives us plenty of data to know that a 5 mile wide tornado is fantastically unlikely if not impossible - even when the entire meso descends. The same goes for wind speeds: while there has been some argument that vortices within a tornado could be in the range of 400-600 mph, no reliable measurement has been made of such winds. The highest radar measured speeds have been in the neighborhood of 300-325 mph. The point is that you can dream up whatever fantasies you want, but to be reasonable you have to draw the line somewhere. We have good observations and data and maybe imagining a storm a small bit further than the extremely rare cases we see is reasonable, but I don't think 500mph and 5 miles is reasonable.

If you want to know the physics behind why such a tornado cannot happen, well perhaps someone here is a fluid dynamics expert - the atmosphere and convective systems are essentially fluid systems.

Not that I was talking to you anyway, But by detailed explanation I was looking for maybe an explanation as to why he thought "no"which may be too much for you to comprehend. Not a BS answer.But anyway appreciate the feedback.

 

[DNewman]

Your "super tornado" can happen, just not on our planet (atmospheric limitations perhaps?). If you want to read about super tornadoes, then check out what happens on our neighboring planets. =)

Yea Scott I watched a show about these super tornadoes on mars. Pretty cool stuff! But I wonder what limits our atmosphere on Earth from creating the same super tornado?

 

[Adam R Davis]

Not that I was talking to you anyway, But by detailed explanation I was looking for maybe an explanation as to why he thought "no"which may be too much for you to comprehend. Not a BS answer.But anyway appreciate the feedback.

Watch the attitude, there's a limited tolerance for that on this forum.

Most of the material on "super tornadoes" that I've seen has mostly been hyped pseudo-science to create drama for networks like The Discovery Channel.

 

[DNewman]

Watch the attitude, there's a limited tolerance for that on this forum.

Most of the material on "super tornadoes" that I've seen has mostly been hyped pseudo-science to create drama for networks like The Discovery Channel.

Oh ok that's something new.

 

[Jeff Duda]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that such a tornado is absolutely impossible. Given accurate estimates of the amount of kinetic energy in the atmosphere and the maximum amount of buoyant air that could be generated, the physics probably does not 100% preclude the existence of a vortex with a radius of maximum wind of 5 miles and speeds approaching 500 MPH. However, such an event is probably astronomically unlikely. You'd probably have to have something like 10000+ CAPE with an LFC damn near at the surface, along with something like 100 kts of 0-1 km shear to generate enough vorticity for such a tornado to exist.

A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that a rankine vortex with 500 mph winds at a range of 5 miles from the center only has vorticity of 0.0555 s^-1, which is in the range of values of vorticity of mesocyclones and very weak tornadoes. So from a vorticity standpoint, such an event is possible. However, a significant pressure perturbation would be required to maintain such a PGF and wind field over the range to generate that. I'm not 100% sure how to estimate the pressure field needed to generate such winds, but perhaps Jeff Snyder can come in and offer more insight than I can.

 

[Shawn Schuman]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that such a tornado is absolutely impossible. Given accurate estimates of the amount of kinetic energy in the atmosphere and the maximum amount of buoyant air that could be generated, the physics probably does not 100% preclude the existence of a vortex with a radius of maximum wind of 5 miles and speeds approaching 500 MPH. However, such an event is probably astronomically unlikely. You'd probably have to have something like 10000+ CAPE with an LFC damn near at the surface, along with something like 100 kts of 0-1 km shear to generate enough vorticity for such a tornado to exist.

A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that a rankine vortex with 500 mph winds at a range of 5 miles from the center only has vorticity of 0.0555 s^-1, which is in the range of values of vorticity of mesocyclones and very weak tornadoes. So from a vorticity standpoint, such an event is possible. However, a significant pressure perturbation would be required to maintain such a PGF and wind field over the range to generate that. I'm not 100% sure how to estimate the pressure field needed to generate such winds, but perhaps Jeff Snyder can come in and offer more insight than I can.

Well, one out of three ain't bad.

 

[DNewman]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that such a tornado is absolutely impossible. Given accurate estimates of the amount of kinetic energy in the atmosphere and the maximum amount of buoyant air that could be generated, the physics probably does not 100% preclude the existence of a vortex with a radius of maximum wind of 5 miles and speeds approaching 500 MPH. However, such an event is probably astronomically unlikely. You'd probably have to have something like 10000+ CAPE with an LFC damn near at the surface, along with something like 100 kts of 0-1 km shear to generate enough vorticity for such a tornado to exist.

A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that a rankine vortex with 500 mph winds at a range of 5 miles from the center only has vorticity of 0.0555 s^-1, which is in the range of values of vorticity of mesocyclones and very weak tornadoes. So from a vorticity standpoint, such an event is possible. However, a significant pressure perturbation would be required to maintain such a PGF and wind field over the range to generate that. I'm not 100% sure how to estimate the pressure field needed to generate such winds, but perhaps Jeff Snyder can come in and offer more insight than I can.

Thanks a lot I've actually learned something! So there is a chance!

 

[DNewman]

Well, one out of three ain't bad.

Now that's some insane CAPE! We're there any tornadoes on this day? I won't be surprised if there was one or two violent twisters either!

 

[rdale]

So there is a chance!

I hope that was posted tongue in cheek...

 

[DNewman]

I hope that was posted tongue in cheek...

I'm just a straight forward person who needs reasonable explanations is all. In other words I tell it like it is!