Spotter Frustration...

[Flo Cornett]

Many spotters do it from a fixed location.

Exactly my point. I spent the first eight years up here as a spotter. For the past three years I've been highly mobile while chasing. Back in 2008, I would pass stationed spotters seemingly all the time, '09 big drop, and '10 virtually no one out there. Granted I'm generally in an area the size of IA (but shifted to the NE), but I was curious about other areas of the country.

 

[Jim Hunt]

We many times suffer from a lack of spotters. Daytime and after 10 or 11 PM are the worst. We just try to make do. (As a result, several of us have a better mobile set up which can reach NWS directly if there is no NCO.)

 

[Jerry Prsha]

I gave up on ham radio overall. Since I've been licensed in 1993 I have seen nothing but a decline in participation, cohesiveness, professionalism, etc. in such things like Skywarn and other assorted spotter programs. While there are still many, many great networks, repeaters, etc. the real story for me is that ham radio is not too far (5 years +/-) off from becoming irrelevant for storm reporting thanks to newer technologies and the lack of the ability of ham radio to keep it's system clean and efficient. In fact I think this is already it's downfall. While ham radio nets are still valuable and would provide very good if not better coverage than the cell networks and other reporting systems, I just feel that the system is breaking down. So....I think the frustration will continue.

I agree on your points as the U.S. Government seems to want to give away HAM frequencies anyway... And so many people have phones now...

But I started pondering the issue a bit more deeply in our local situation. In the St. Louis Area we have a great SkyWarn team. Seriously top notch, professional, dedicated people who I admire. And I do see the need for SkyWarn in most situations. But I think the greater percentage of people who frequent this site have a much larger education of what they're seeing then SkyWarn trainees. I have my HAM license but have never used it. Any reports I have besides really severe weather I enter manually on ESpotter.com. The local current bad stuff generates a call directly to the NWS and entered into SpotterNetwork when I'm on the road.

My personal belief is that you're adding an additional step and thus a delay calling it into your SkyWarn net, who in turn phones the NWS, and then the NWS needs to call the Police to sound the sirens. In St. Louis, Mo the SkyWarn people ARE the siren activators so there's not much delay but it's still there.

I still go every other year and get my SkyWarn renewal because I do believe in the program... However, i personally circumvent it.

Am I being conceited or insightful?

 

[Tom Stefanac]

Interesting thread, even if it is half a year old already.

The nets in the heart of the alley, especially TX, OK and KS seem to be very useful. I always listen but rarely chime in because there is no real need since what I'm seen has already been reported on the net, mentioned several times on different simplex channels, phoned in and occasionally reported on SN all at the same time.

I noticed the nets tend to fall apart so to speak outside of the above mentioned states. The problem is manifold in nature. On the one hand Skywarn Groups and ARC's don't want to put spotters in harms way so your encouraged to spot from a fixed location with a good view and nearby shelter. If spotting from a fixed location worked all the time the DOW's would never exist since tornadoes would be passing radar sites constantly. We know the opposite is true and odds are highly against a tornado or other severe weather striking any given specific location.

The second problem is that of availability, like mentioned in previous posts people are often busy or unavailable due to life arrangements. That's why emergency service personnel who are on the road as part of their job are so invaluable, they are out there 24/7 and most likely the ones who will have severe weather bestowed upon them. Unfortunately with the exception of a few ham radio operators who work in logistics/transportation or some sort of mobile field environment where they have access to their ham gear (ideally mobile as opposed to portable) everyone else is busy.

The third problem is the nature of HAM radio itself. Most HAM's are interested in electronics and radio, from there their hobby aspect branches out into others fields like aviation, model building, computer programming etc. Naturally I think weather interests most HAM's but for the majority of them it's sort of a passive interest rather than an active interest. What I mean is that most HAM radio operators think to themselves "wow that storm was sure impressive" but the interest does not go beyond that to ask "why or how come". That's why so many HAM's will ask for their personal weather forecast or feel the need to say that they are helping the YL bring groceries into the house and can't stick around on the net LOL. Once you sort out all the HAM's who actually want to go out and spot your left with very few operators relative to the group as a whole.

In Southern Ontario we have the same problem, nets with virtually no spotters, spotters with no nets running, people bringing in groceries and you name it. For me personally being mobile while listening to the police, fire and EMS scanners then picking up the phone and talking to the lead forecaster is far faster, effective and more reliable. I can say to the forecaster "I'm watching a downburst 4 miles to my west with a curling rain foot behind broad low level inflow and the local fire department just got paged out for 40 power poles down on Main St in Essa".

What did happen in my neck of the woods was that a predominant, well known and very grouchy NCS decided he did not want any affiliation with chasers so chasers were not welcomed on his local repeater. He saw chasers as reckless and not adhering to the standards of Canwarn (which is similar to Skywarn). I can't say for sure but I get the feeling no matter where I am that there are some Skywarn individuals who feel the same way and they don't want any affiliation with chasers or chaser groups. I would argue for the sake of HAM radio that during severe weather the majority of users are chasers who love ham radio if not just for simplex communication. The irony is many chasers have multiple radios and I'm sure would love active net's. Hail and smaller damage for example is one of those things that's not necessarily super timely to report and maybe even a bit of pain in the rear. Taking 10 seconds to pass a report via Skywarn Net is IMHO great and very effective. Plus it let's other know not to wander into the apparent clearing or go down the road with the big tree laying sideways.

At the end of the day it's probably better to try and involve weather hobbyists into HAM radio than trying to involve HAM radio guys into weather like a previous poster suggested.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[rdale]

My personal belief is that you're adding an additional step and thus a delay calling it into your SkyWarn net, who in turn phones the NWS, and then the NWS needs to call the Police to sound the sirens. In St. Louis, Mo the SkyWarn people ARE the siren activators so there's not much delay but it's still there.

The NWS doesn't call the police to sound sirens... A good 911/EM program has Skywarn integrated into the system, so they can sound them if they get a good spotter report. But most sound when the Tornado Warning is issued, and that's not from a phone call.

 

[Jerry Prsha]

The NWS doesn't call the police to sound sirens... A good 911/EM program has Skywarn integrated into the system, so they can sound them if they get a good spotter report. But most sound when the Tornado Warning is issued, and that's not from a phone call.

That's how it's done here. It's switches in a bunker...

 

[Tim Shriver]

"My personal belief is that you're adding an additional step and thus a delay calling it into your SkyWarn net, who in turn phones the NWS, and then the NWS needs to call the Police to sound the sirens. In St. Louis, Mo the SkyWarn people ARE the siren activators so there's not much delay but it's still there."

That not how it works here, not sure about other places. The county EOC listens to our spotters and can contact us anytime via business band or
by using our people in the EOC at the ham radios. We radio in the storm report to the local WFO directly, via our Relay person. No phone is used.
Many times during an outbreak the phone lines into the WFO are busy, so it's nice being able to put the report in the hands of someone 3 feet away from the NWS METs
without hearing a busy signal.

Thats Dane county, which has the EOC staffed. But for smaller counties, which we also work with, many are automated. The NWS sends out the TOR and the software receives it and kicks off the sirens.

Some of our county EOCs sounds the sirens and have done so many time based on radio submitted storm report they feel warrant it. Thus the sirens are
sounded before the NWS issues a warning. Takes time to type it out and issue it. Seconds count.

We also use a protocol to shorten the storm reports down to just the basics that the WFO/EOC needs and requires.

Cell phones are nice and have helped a ton, but having more then one means of getting a report into those that need it is a great thing.
Don't limit yourself to just one tool, learn to use them all affectively.

Each town, city and county is different and we must be able to adjust to their wants and needs.

Tim

 

[Jason Foster]

In St. Louis, Mo the SkyWarn people ARE the siren activators so there's not much delay but it's still there.

This is a seriously scary thought unless it just happen to be that the Emergency Managers and other truly qualified officials where also Skywarn folks. But these days it would not surprise me if Skywarn people brought it upon themselves to take control of such warning systems. I mean...hell....already seen whacker types with decommissioned sirens...can you imagine.

 

[rdale]

This is a seriously scary thought unless it just happen to be that the Emergency Managers and other truly qualified officials where also Skywarn folks.

What would seriously scare you? I can't imagine a circumstance where an EM/911 dispatch center would hand the button off to a Skywarn rep and say "go for it" and walk away.

 

[Tim Shriver]

This is a seriously scary thought unless it just happen to be that the Emergency Managers and other truly qualified officials where also Skywarn folks. But these days it would not surprise me if Skywarn people brought it upon themselves to take control of such warning systems. I mean...hell....already seen whacker types with decommissioned sirens...can you imagine.

While I may agree that it is odd that they do hand it over to a non-EMM person, I do think it unfair, to some degree, to assume the ARES person is not qualified to do this task simply because they belong to ARES. Many counties/cities do not have the budget for a full time EMM staff. This person may be very qualified to do so.
It may be that the person simply hits the button when a TOR is issued.

It seems that there is a prejudice toward Skywarn and ARES here. I am sure there is prejudice toward chasers by spotters as well.
There are, I'm sure, undesirables in both camps, but there is also good well trained dedicated folks in both camps that deserve better
consideration and treatment.

Tim

 

[Johnathan Brouwer]

If report is not taken by the net, I use my database of reporting numbers to contact the NWS office directly. As I see it, makes no difference that I am in a vehicle or not and especially if the wheels are rolling, so if the net is being bitchy, I move on. I try to use SN as much as possible. Depending on urgency, will use this order of contact NET, Direct contact to NWS office, SN. Remember too, not all NWS offices have embraced SN for reports...

 

[rdale]

Remember too, not all NWS offices have embraced SN for reports...

They may not embace it but it will pop up in their NWSChat room.

Now, if they don't use NWSChat -- they have bigger issues.

 

[Alex Tarsha]

I recently moved to the St. Louis area, so my experience here has been limited. Previously, however, I was active duty military in Altus, OK. I was a SKYWARN and an EM volunteer for the City of Altus. The lack of participation was a true problem there as well.

That said, the system, albeit in need of a few tweaks, was a very good, stable system.

In Southwest Oklahoma the SWIRA net (South West Independent Repeater Association) would typically stand up first. This net of linked repeaters was monitored by OUN (WX5OUN)

Following that, the Altus EOC would be staffed with the Emergency Manager, and Altus SKYWARN Association personnel, who would stand up the WX5ASA net.

Within the EOC there would be one Net Control for the WX5ASA net whose secondary function was to monitor APRS and position spotters, and one Radar operator whose secondary function was to monitor the SWIRA net, and relay relevent spotter reports to OUN via the SWIRA net.

This was a fairly well oiled machine, with the biggest problem being a few poor attitudes here and there and the typical lack of participation, but ultimately, it got the job done successfully every time.

During my tenure there, we never did fix the participation problem, but I guess thats thanks in part to the size of the community.


As for adding an extra step, in the world of radio, you're talking very minimal time. From the time I spotted something, to the time OUN knew about it was the time it took for two people to key up and say the report. I'd bet money this is faster than you digging out your phone, figuring out which WFO you need to speak to, dialling the number, explaining to the person where you are, and then explaining what you see. Not to mention that doing it over the radio in turn notifies any others listening in to the frequencies, which MAY be just the person who needs to be warned! If the EM needed to sound the siren it would be done the moment the report was heard in the EOC.

Additionally, regarding sounding the sirens, procedures are in place for what criteria are to be used to sound the sirens. Upon receiving training and understanding the times in which it is required, the SKYWARN net control/radar operator as well as the EM duty officer would be given the code to do so, for redundancy's sake.


I love HAM radio. Until the FCC eliminates all amateur frequencies, HAM radio will exist, because it involves so many aspects, not strictly SKYWARN/ARES/RACES etc. Whether it's place in storm spotting/chasing/EM etc.. is disappearing is definitely arguable, but as of now I still see it as a very valuable tool, that should not be written off.

 

[Jake Orosi]

I still go every other year and get my SkyWarn renewal because I do believe in the program... However, i personally circumvent it.

I would say you aren't circumventing it. Perhaps there's a confusion in terminology; but in this evening's Skywarn class (in NE Ohio), the met running the session seemed to be saying that "Skywarn" is the volunteer program as a whole and local ham groups who choose to coordinate via radio are just one part of the system. When explaining methods of contact, the met first described and explained how to use eSpotter, then briefly described the local net, then started on the telephone numbers.

FWIW, I don't have any immediate plans to get a license and invest in radio equipment. I do want to do so eventually, because I'm interested in radio for pleasure - but I will likely not be using radio when reporting. eSpotter and the phone number seem more direct to me - even if not significantly faster, they still reduce the number of hands your report has to go through before it gets to where it needs to go, thus reducing signal noise overall. From what I've read here so far, the quality of nets from place to place is inconsistent at best - and if you will be mobile or chasing, having the right WFO spotter numbers for the area you're in doesn't require any more or less preparation and situational awareness as knowing which repeater frequency you're supposed to be using in a given area.