Jason Boggs
It's just my opinion, but radar is one tool to use, but verification should be attained by ground truth.
SN Reports had 15 min lead time 3/8/10
- Thread starter Mark Sefried
- Start date
It's just my opinion, but radar is one tool to use, but verification should be attained by ground truth.
rdale
EF5
Since it is an "estimated" size versus measured (all storm spotters/chasers need to go buy a $0.99 ruler), and it was relayed so probably wasn't an instant process, and it's just barely on the low end of severe hail, there are enough "issues" that it probably wouldn't lead to a SVR unless something else became evident on radar or from spotters.
Jay McCoy
EF5
But we know it most likely wouldnt register well on radar. There is a big whole in western Oklahoma when it comes to good radar coverage since it is sar far from AMA, OUN, DDC, and Frederick so you have to go by what reports you get
Isnt that the whole point of becoming a certified spotter with a spotter number?? I know Jason has taken the course this year and has a numbered spotter card that the NWS keeps on record. They know he is trained and if he calls in a report of quarter hail they should put some weight behind that and act accordingly. There is a difference between a public report and a certified spotter report. If they are going to ignore those then why bother going through the course?? Why spend you time calling it in? I have missed some great video and photos by taking gthe time to call in a report but if I know they are going to be ignored I wont bother and just keep on shooting. At least AMA takes them seriously. I know for a fact OUN has a history of ignoring spotter reports unless they know the spotters personally. I have been ignored on a number of occasions which means I wont bother calling OUN anytime with a report about anything. I have tried by phone call, relayed through AMA, online report and even a HAM net. Waste of time with those guys.
Jason Boggs
Oh, I overlooked that. When I called the NWS, I told them that it was measured. I had an old NWS # so O had to call Amarillo and have them relay the info. I told them that I had just measured the hail.
rdale
EF5
No. Just because a spotter reports "estimated 1 inch hail" doesn't mean you issue a SVR automatically. Again - it was relayed so it was likely delayed. If that was the ONLY report received, and radar didn't seem to validate a 1 inch risk, and the forecaster's situational aware says "no severe hail today" then it will take more than a single estimated report. That's just the way the game works.
So next time he calls it in on a questionable day, and you decide not to because you don't like OUN, then they only get one report and they may not warn. If they had two 1" measured reports, and they seem to fit in time and location,that's another story.
J Holder
EF2
Seemed like this happened a lot last year, too. I know many of the NWS offices are understaffed and filling a lot of openings with unpaid interns from what I understand.
There were a number of tornadoes in my area last year that were never officially tallied despite the obvious video and NWS reports, Douglas county April 24 is one example.
There were a number of tornadoes in my area last year that were never officially tallied despite the obvious video and NWS reports, Douglas county April 24 is one example.
rdale
EF5
I'm not sure what your last line means... The NWS reported a tornado, but it's not in the official log?
Bill Tabor
EF5
Equating not patching someones box within 10 minutes of an IM and not hitting the panic button when you see an IM are not the same. If it turns out that the information was "missed", we may have a systematic failure...not a person failure. If the NWS employee is suppose to be doing 48 things _and_ watch NWSChat...maybe he/she can't...and the US government needs to appropriately staff the NWS to do the job the public has asked them to do.
I suspect we'll never know what actually happened....we can only speculate. Most of the time they do a good job, I know I wouldn't want their job. I got enough trouble watching out for myself
We should know what happened. Someone should get back to the community on this issue. SPC is very good about communicating when criticized and though I know it's tough for them, they are very professional about it typically. The system can't really be improved / debugged if we have no feedback. I think Spotternetwork is still a fairly new product with NWS getting used to...and live streaming chase cams is even newer. There should be standardized procedures between offices on how to utilize and trust Spotternetwork reports. Same should be done for live video. One problem with live video if you watch much of that is usually it is just someone driving around. A lot feeds have shots of clouds or maybe a wallcloud. Very seldom do you see a tornado. That said, if someone sent the link of the tornado live that is different.
My guess is the education / marketing campaign and adoption of Spotternetwork needs to expand not just to all NWS warning offices, but to television weather media as well. It's my impression that outside the heart of tornado alley not many know about Spotternetwork. I'm pretty sure the local mets in Austin don't know, or at least didn't. I believe Randy was contacting them. I was going to...I suppose I should just to make sure. Anyway, as you all know it's a big resource and if utilized properly can save lives. Hopefully someone from that office will get on line and respond. If not, perhaps someone should contact them to follow up. As someone else said...it's not about blame, but about improvement, learning, and fine tuning the system. It's these real life case scenarios that often drive the breakthroughs in procedure / management.
On the issue of Spotternetwork logging versus calling reports to OUN..on this chase / tornado I tried to call in a tornado warning for unwarned storm:
http://www.tornadoxtreme.com/Chases_By_Year/2006_Chases/April_24_06/april_24_06.html
At first my phone wouldn't work so I managed to borrow a locals phone. Here's an excerpt of a quote from my chase account about this attempt:
"As locals passed in their vehicles I tried to honk, flash my lights, and stop a few and tell them what was ahead. I passed a family outside their house with the kids then backed up and talked to them. They didn't know the storm behind them had a tornado in it. The lady let me use her cell phone to call the NWS line. I promptly got in and listened to the somewhat long voice mail options of 4 current conditions and forecast and 5 talk to someone 8 to 5 during normal business hours. No way to log a report. (See other thread). I told them to look out and drove on back to Byers."
Based on the above I'd rather use Spotternetwork.
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rdale
EF5
SN reports are automatically routed to NWSChat. If there's a TV station not on the NWSChat system, they don't give a hoot about severe weather in the first place.
J Holder
EF2
Multiple youtube vids and reports into NWS, but go to the NCDC Storm events site and there's nada.
Another event in Osage county had numerous reports of funnel clouds from separate storms into NWS that never got warned. One of the excuses I heard was that VORTEX2 was on one storm, if anything dropped down NWs would get the word from them(!)
Jeff Snyder
EF5
You mentioned 24 April in a previous post... What year? Not doubting you necessarily, but I'm just curious.
I don't remember chasing (or, rather, the project operating in) Osage Co last year (either KS or OK). The graphic of the GPS logs that I have from VORTEX2 (at least the radar truck I was with) is at http://tornadocentral.com/events/vortex2/2009_VORTEX2_tracks.png . What date are you referring to?
I, too, was a little surprised about the tardy warning. However, as I noted previously, I really do like that OUN typically seems to have a higher threshold for issuing tornado warnings. This tends to reduce the False Alarm Rate, though it may lead to a few more zero- or negative-lead-time tornado events (which was the case on this day). However, on days with little in the way of severe weather expected, staffing may have been an issue, at least in terms of having enough people to collect data from the myriad of sources of information. Perhaps this will lead some NWSFOs to place a greater emphasis on the use of streaming video from chasers, or perhaps this was just a situation caused by a series of unfortunate events (e.g. a met got up from his desk to get a drink of water for a minute or two, perhaps someone from OUN was calling around to get confirmation from another source or to corroborate the SN report). Heck, as was noted previously, these are still people at the desks in the NWSFOs, and people can make mistakes.
Let's all just continue to do what we do in terms of providing as detailed of reports as we can, be it from SpotterNet, ham, etc., noting that it is apparently very useful for NWS operations if we (as chasers) include the "direction viewing" when we report funnels/tornadoes. Of course, it'd be helpful if at least a couple of chasers (myself included!) remember to call the local NWSFO just in case...
Rick Smith
EF1
I've been reading the comments on StormTrack regarding this event and how it was handled. I'm not going to get into the minute-by-minute specifics of the event, but I wanted to share a few general comments (the comments apply to OUN, and not necessarily any other WFO).
- Telephone is THE quickest way to get a report to us. We have lots of phones, and they are almost never all in use at one time. You should never assume that we already have the information, because in most cases we don't. You should also never assume that we are too busy to talk on the phone. If you are in doubt about how to report, use the phone. We may not have time for a lengthy conversation, but we appreciate the report. We do not publish the one toll-free number we have since it is for EM/Public Safety use. The number for chasers to call is 405-325-3816, 24 hours a day, every day. We also have a form on our webpage to submit reports. Those reports alarm on AWIPS. The reports we receive are used in combination with all the other data sources to make warning decisions.
- We are taking steps to be more active in monitoring chaser feeds, and I see great value in being able to see a live image/video versus just relying on a verbal description. The issue of knowing where the chaser is looking is a big one, and has prompted me on several occasions to call the chaser or send a TV station a message asking which way they are looking. It would be great to have this automated somehow. Video feeds have helped us make warning decisions (both to warn or not to warn). (In a few cases, watching the feeds and comparing what we see and what is being reported has also been an enlightening experience).
- On a side note, while we are exploring ways to monitor social media sites like Facebook and Twitter, I would not recommend using these as a way to get real-time reports to us. Assume that no one here is monitoring either of those sources. They might be useful after the fact. There is a new Facebook page called "OUN Events 2010" that can serve as a collection point for post-event images, video, accounts, etc. You can also e-mail me post-event information at [email protected].
Our operations continue to become much more complex as we integrate new data sets into the mix. Many of us monitor SpotterNetwork via GR2A during an event to get an idea of where chasers are located and if they are feeding video. In addition, if someone submits a report via SpotterNetwork, it automatically appears in the NWSChat, and alarms in our AWIPS. We are also trying to monitor streaming video that some of the TV stations have, watch live blogs, take a peek at chaser forums every once in a while, do NWSChat, make probing calls into areas where we are not getting reports, doing amateur radio, etc. There is a lot of information used to make warning decisions.
Contrary to what some chasers think, we do appreciate the live reports and streams, and post-event information. The information Monday was extremely valuable. We are exploring ways to integrate this data source into our operations.
That's all for now.
Rick
- Telephone is THE quickest way to get a report to us. We have lots of phones, and they are almost never all in use at one time. You should never assume that we already have the information, because in most cases we don't. You should also never assume that we are too busy to talk on the phone. If you are in doubt about how to report, use the phone. We may not have time for a lengthy conversation, but we appreciate the report. We do not publish the one toll-free number we have since it is for EM/Public Safety use. The number for chasers to call is 405-325-3816, 24 hours a day, every day. We also have a form on our webpage to submit reports. Those reports alarm on AWIPS. The reports we receive are used in combination with all the other data sources to make warning decisions.
- We are taking steps to be more active in monitoring chaser feeds, and I see great value in being able to see a live image/video versus just relying on a verbal description. The issue of knowing where the chaser is looking is a big one, and has prompted me on several occasions to call the chaser or send a TV station a message asking which way they are looking. It would be great to have this automated somehow. Video feeds have helped us make warning decisions (both to warn or not to warn). (In a few cases, watching the feeds and comparing what we see and what is being reported has also been an enlightening experience).
- On a side note, while we are exploring ways to monitor social media sites like Facebook and Twitter, I would not recommend using these as a way to get real-time reports to us. Assume that no one here is monitoring either of those sources. They might be useful after the fact. There is a new Facebook page called "OUN Events 2010" that can serve as a collection point for post-event images, video, accounts, etc. You can also e-mail me post-event information at [email protected].
Our operations continue to become much more complex as we integrate new data sets into the mix. Many of us monitor SpotterNetwork via GR2A during an event to get an idea of where chasers are located and if they are feeding video. In addition, if someone submits a report via SpotterNetwork, it automatically appears in the NWSChat, and alarms in our AWIPS. We are also trying to monitor streaming video that some of the TV stations have, watch live blogs, take a peek at chaser forums every once in a while, do NWSChat, make probing calls into areas where we are not getting reports, doing amateur radio, etc. There is a lot of information used to make warning decisions.
Contrary to what some chasers think, we do appreciate the live reports and streams, and post-event information. The information Monday was extremely valuable. We are exploring ways to integrate this data source into our operations.
That's all for now.
Rick
Jerry Prsha
EF4
Rick,
I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say "Thanks!" for responding to this thread. I surely wish there was more interaction like this between NWS offices and "Chasers/Spotters."
(If a moderator wants to start a separate thread for this, I understand... But I feel it's relevant to the current discussion.)
You said that telephone is the quickest way for us to get this info to you. If you're able to respond to this, I'm curious as to your ideas on HAM Radio as well as Spotter Network's electronic entries.
Individually, I'm a Spotter from the KLSX office but when I'm out in the plains states, I tend to call 911 when I need to report a tornado on the ground. I know that SN provides an 800 number for the local NWS office but I'm not crystal clear on how warnings are issued on a "wholescale" basis ...And if most LEOs can sound warnings on their own?
Let me give you an example, In 2008, I was on Interstate 70 and came across three tractor-trailers knocked over by wind. When I called 911 for each of them, the dispatcher wanted my location. Since I was on the highway, I told them in relation to towns on my GPS based map. I could hear in their voice that they weren't happy with those coordinates and wanted mile markers, which I didn't know at the time )being focused on staying on the road myself.)
By using SpotterNetwork, the coordinates are relayed in Lat and Long and I'm trying to get an concrete idea on how we relay that info best to the WFO. I would think mile markers wouldn't work for you and sometimes the roads aren't marked properly... where the GPS just says "Road."
I ponder if marking the event in SpotterNetwork first might be the best option and then immediately calling the office to draw attention to the marker might be the best plan of action? I hate to waste any time by not calling first but exact location might be lost otherwise.
Perhaps an ongoing separate thread might be beneficial to all of us... Something dedicated to making this work better and then perhaps, we can add a FAQ page as to the current "How to" for newbies to the discussion?
Sorry about the verbosity this morning...
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Kory Hartman
EF2
In my placefiles on GRLevel3, I use a file called "nws800numbers.txt" which puts a little Phone icon in the corner of every county.
This was the file I attempted to use on Monday to call OUN to tell them what Bart and Andy were streaming. However, the number it displayed was 405-360-5928. Disconnected.
Does anyone know who created the "nws800numbers.txt" placefile and if there is an updated version out there somewhere??
Thanks!
This was the file I attempted to use on Monday to call OUN to tell them what Bart and Andy were streaming. However, the number it displayed was 405-360-5928. Disconnected.
Does anyone know who created the "nws800numbers.txt" placefile and if there is an updated version out there somewhere??
Thanks!
cedwards
EF5
Has anyone used the NPOP number to make reports? I tried it on Monday when I first saw the tornado (5:17pm) My computer was messed up and couldn't get into any data or number for Norman.
It is an automated system and tornado was option 8. It took a while to even get there. Then it wanted GPS coordinates. I could have pulled it up and entered it on my phone, but not while driving. Then they asked for Zip code. I didn't know that either. Finally I got an option to leave a voice message. I started to and lost my cell connection.
I think they should have FIRST an option to leave a voice message or talk to a live person. I don't think I will be using that method anymore.
It is an automated system and tornado was option 8. It took a while to even get there. Then it wanted GPS coordinates. I could have pulled it up and entered it on my phone, but not while driving. Then they asked for Zip code. I didn't know that either. Finally I got an option to leave a voice message. I started to and lost my cell connection.
I think they should have FIRST an option to leave a voice message or talk to a live person. I don't think I will be using that method anymore.
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