Please, try to have some compassion.

Mike Parker

I have read several posts recently that have been very critical of these people's choices to stay in harms way. Hear me when I say that I agree with the fact that they should have left IF they had the means to.

However, what I am hearing from some members here is really sad. Do you really think that these people deserve to die? My goodness, get real for a second. They made a very bad life and death choice when they decided to stay. That is it. A bad choice. How many bad choices have I made in my life. Tons and tons I assure you. Some of the choices I made could have and probably should have ended my life. That does not mean I deserved what I had coming to me. It just means that I made a bad choice and I learned from my mistake. These people are fighting for their lives as we speak and some people are on here claiming that they have no pity on the "idiots" who decided to stay. In a sense, that is like saying I have no pity on someone who dies while chasing storms. They made the decision to leave their home and chase a dangerous situation.

I am not telling anyone here not to say what they feel. This is America and you have the right to say whatever is on your mind. Just like they had the right to stay in their homes. This is a time of great tragedy in our country and I think it would show a little class if we would hold off on our judgment of these poor souls until at least the water resides. Just my 2 pennies.
 
I have read several posts recently that have been very critical of these people's choices to stay in harms way. Hear me when I say that I agree with the fact that they should have left IF they had the means to.

However, what I am hearing from some members here is really sad. Do you really think that these people deserve to die? My goodness, get real for a second. They made a very bad life and death choice when they decided to stay. That is it. A bad choice. How many bad choices have I made in my life. Tons and tons I assure you. Some of the choices I made could have and probably should have ended my life. That does not mean I deserved what I had coming to me. It just means that I made a bad choice and I learned from my mistake. These people are fighting for their lives as we speak and some people are on here claiming that they have no pity on the "idiots" who decided to stay. In a sense, that is like saying I have no pity on someone who dies while chasing storms. They made the decision to leave their home and chase a dangerous situation.

I am not telling anyone here not to say what they feel. This is America and you have the right to say whatever is on your mind. Just like they had the right to stay in their homes. This is a time of great tragedy in our country and I think it would show a little class if we would hold off on our judgment of these poor souls until at least the water resides. Just my 2 pennies.

Well Said. I agree 100%.
 
Mike said...
" that is like saying I have no pity on someone who dies while chasing storms"

Comparing storm chasers to people who stayed in their homes for Katrina is extremely misleading. Storm chasers are saving lives by putting themselves in harms way. The people that chose not to evacuate are putting other peoples lives at risk because of their decision. There is a BIG difference between the two.

Nobody had said anything about anyone deserving to die, so I don't know why you felt the need to include that in your post. I do think these people deserve any criticism that comes their way considering the fact that they are putting rescuers lives at risk because they ignored the warnings. If someone didn't have the means to evacuate, then obviously they are not at fault for their current situation, but those people are few and far between. Why couldn't they have gone to a shelter? They were within walking distance. I hope everyone gets rescued and I don't think anyone deserves to die, but at the same time I think the people that stayed for Katrina without stocking up on supplies are "idiots". I don't have a whole lot of compassion when people put themselves in danger strictly because of ignorance.
 
I agree with you, Mike. Many of the people who now find themselves in harms way no doubt ignored the warnings to head out of town. So they are responsible for their own situation...does this mean I want them to die? Of course not!
 
I too would have been crying the "Darwinism" chant when I was young. Remember that most of the people support this idea the loudest are young, and in a few years they will regret having been so harsh. Not many of us have been through the experience of picking through destroyed buildings to find the living, and the dead. And none of us, except those that helped out in international events like the Tsunami, or Kobe, have experienced the magnitude of disaster that continues to unfold before our eyes. Pick up a few dead bodies and your perspective on Darwinism will change. You realize quickly how easily it could have been you.

That being said, I do wish more people would have taken advantage of the shelters provided by the City of New Orleans.

For all those that are still determined to shout "survival of the fittest," I challenge you to go to New Orleans now, and see how long you could last. It is a time for support, NOT second guessing the judgement of others. I personally have just as much compassion for those that made the horrible decision not to evacuate, as anybody else. Do I respect that person? No. Will I help them? Yes.

I personally believe that "idiots" are the ones that need the greatest compassion in life. Very often it is the lack of compassion in their lives that fed their ignorance in the first place. Don't forget that a great deal of "idiots" also evacuated, and a large number of idiots come to this forum, and some even believe that our president is an "idiots." I am sure that each and every one of us has done something that qualifies as idiot behavior. So don't be so quick to judge.

Like I said before, I wish they would have gone to the shelters too...but I will still reach out for them in everyway I can.

Have a great day!
Tom
 
Tom said...
"I too would have been crying the "Darwinism" chant when I was young. Remember that most of the people support this idea the loudest are young, and in a few years they will regret having been so harsh"

I am 24. That's not so young. Please give me one example where anyone said anything in support of "Darwinism"? You can't give me an example because it never happened. There is no need to misrepresent contradicting opinions.

Tom said...
"For all those that are still determined to shout "survival of the fittest," I challenge you to go to New Orleans now, and see how long you could last"

What does that have to do with anything?

Tom said...
"Don't forget that a great deal of "idiots" also evacuated, and a large number of idiots come to this forum, and some even believe that our president is an "idiots."

I really don't understand this statement. You are apparently upset because I refered to the people who are stuck on their roofs as idiots. These people that I refered to as idiots knew they lived in a flood plain, they were warned it was going to flood, and they chose to stay put without even stocking up on the bare neccesities, like water, which ultimately meant they had to be rescued by the Coast Gaurd. Now considering that, I think that this case of poor decision making definitely crosses the threshold that qualifies you as an idiot. You responded to my calling them idiots by saying that there are idiots who evacuated and a large number of idiots who come to this forum and you threw Bush being an idiot in for good measure. What qualifies these people as idiots? I have reason and logic backing up my accusations that the people who got stranded on their roofs are idiots. You are saying people are idiots for no apparent reason. I don't understand :roll:
 
I have reason and logic backing up my accusations that the people who got stranded on their roofs are idiots.

Every hour we see new video of not only able-bodied, but the elderly and infirm being lifted from these attics and roofs, and tonight they are going to have another long wait for dawn while the waters rise slowly around them. It might be useful to pause for a moment and think about what that would be like.

How anybody, especially chasers, could feel anything but nervous compassion and sympathy for those people--no matter how they got there--is beyond my understanding.
 
We have discussed in other threads that it takes a good 36 hours to evacuate a large metro area. These people barely had that much time as original track forecasts put Katrina well to the east. I was watching the news this evening and saw many elderly people getting rescued who would not have been able to evacuate or get to a shelter without help. I just do not know how many of these folks could have been helped out with little time to prepare. We live in an era where families are often spread across the country making it difficult to "save" grandma in such a situation. After years of discussion of "the big one" it is obvious NOLA was not fully prepared (if there is such a thing for a storm of this magnitude). My prayers go out the deceased and their families yet I reserve the right to call some of them dumb. Many of them made a dumb decison that cost their lives. Years of complacent behavior after several near misses set this up for tragedy. I wonder if this will change following the wrath of Katrina... or will we forget like we did after Camille and Andrew.
 
Living in East Texas and doing what I do, I have come in contact with quite a few refugees over the past two days. Most of them just don't know what to do, and for those who think they do, that will change when they finally lose their hotel rooms.

Many folks are in church shelters here.

I was walking out of Walmart tonight and a Jefferson Parish Schools bus pulled up and folks went inside to do some shopping. I don't think I've ever seen a group of more despondent-looking people. They looked like they were on the voyage of the damned.

mp
 
while i agree on most of your post, this is a storm everyone knew would come eventually. yes they didnt have a lot of time to get out but its not like they didnt know what was about to happen. its really sad to say but a storm of this magnitude was needed to wake people up along the entire coast of the United States that hurricanes are not something you play around with. People are going to pay attention now to every single tropical storm in the atlantic and that is probably the greatest good that came from this storm
 
I am sorry Mike, if it appeared that I was attacking you directly. I guess I am just getting tired of the general lack of compassion shown by many. In general I agree with you, and I too cannot comprehend why people would not evacuate.

I am sorry to sound like this, but at 24, you are still young, and enjoy it as much as you can. :D

I brought in the natural selection from other posts. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that. Remember, I wasn't trying to attack your post, and this type of commentary has been a common thread in most posts relating to the people that didn't evacuate.

Yes, I wasn't very clear about idiots. Let me be more clear; Have you ever had beer and then driven? We all make choices; some are regretable. But to sit back and call somebody an idiot because they wanted to stay in their home, regardless of the circumstances, isn't exactly a logical argument for their idiocy. Very bad judgement perhaps, but idiot? Using the word idiot proclaims your statement as a judgement as well, not logic. That's your judgement of their life and mental capability based only one decision in their lives. Most certainly some of the people that stayed behind are idiots. But, most of them probably had valid reasons, especially to themselves, to stay behind. Did they make a horrible decision? Yes. Are they putting rescuers at risk? Yes. Are they idiots for this one decision? This is not enough of a sample of their life to determine that.

You have to be careful when you say you have a hard time feeling compassion for people, for any reason, as it makes you sound cold. It sounds like you think they don't deserve help.

I was being an idiot when I tried to make that horrible analogy about other people being idiots. I am sorry for being so opaque. But what I meant, is that we all have made some bad calls, most of us to the extent of putting others at risk (see drunk driving question above).

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I am in Okinawa, and I have family and friends in Gulfport, and no word on their situation. My relatives evacuated, some of our friends didn't, So I am a little sensitive and worried at the moment. And I feel pretty helpless here. Sorry again.

I think for the time being it would be best if we all treated every post as if one of the victims family members was reading it, because some are.

Have a great day!
Tom
 
Amos said...
"Every hour we see new video of not only able-bodied, but the elderly and infirm being lifted from these attics and roofs, and tonight they are going to have another long wait for dawn while the waters rise slowly around them. It might be useful to pause for a moment and think about what that would be like"

You obviously didn't read my first post where I said, " If someone didn't have the means to evacuate, then obviously they are not at fault for their current situation". The people I have seen on CNN getting lifted off their roofs have all been able-bodied. I find it a little ironic that they were not "able-bodied" enough to evacuate, but they were "able-bodied" enough to climb up on the roof.

Amos said...
"How anybody, especially chasers, could feel anything but nervous compassion and sympathy for those people--no matter how they got there--is beyond my understanding."

Maybe I am just an a$$hole, but I don't have the same level of compassion for people who ignore warnings and violate evacuation orders as I do for the people who are innocent victims. I feel compassion for all the victims of Katrina, but I also think that the people who are compounding the problem because they refused to evacuate, deserve any criticism they get, especially when you consider the fact that the emergency personell are now having to risk their own lives to correct the stupid mistakes of others.
I am a little surprised that you don't agree with me on this one Amos. I remembered what you said to me when I was considering chasing Dennis and I think it also applies to this scenario. You said...

"I think the choice to chase a hurricane when you have no experience doing so, don't know the area, are traveling alone, and have nobody with you who has done it before or even experienced a hurricane before, is exceptionally irresponsible. You're likely to wind up in trouble and cause additional danger to emergency services personnel or others"

I would think that you would consider the decision to ride out a category 4-5 hurricane "exceptionally irresponsible" as well.
 
I am sorry to hear about your friends being affected Tom. I realize that "idiot" was not the best word to describe the people that decided to stay, but once people started calling me out on it, I had to stick by my guns. It is a generalization and I shouldn't have said it. I should have just said they made an incredibly stupid decision.
I hope I am not coming across as being cold because of what I have said. I swear I am a good and compassionate person in most situations. I stop on the highway to help stranded motorists, I donate to charity, I try to help victims of tornadoes when I am out chasing, etc. I just have a hard time feeling sorry for people that disregard the advice/help of others and put themselves in a life threatening situation that was both avoidable and predictable. I just looked at some of the websites that were set up by the state and local governments in Louisiana to help with evacuation. They had topographic maps that showed what areas would flood. To me it just seems like the height of stupidity to ignore these warnings.
I apologize if anyone was offended and my heart goes out to all the victims. I just don't feel all that bad for the people that have to spend the night on the roof before getting rescued.
 
I think that guy that drove his car into the flooded street claiming he couldn't tell it was flooded is pretty dumb. He's just lucky that reporter was there to save his life. Major props to that reporter. I'm not sure who that was. He didn't even hesitate and just ran on in there and saved that guy's life.

Folks, be ready. This really is going to a meteorological event that defines a generation. Similar to the Super Outbreak and Camile...Katrina is going to go down as one of "those" storms. Residents' lives are going to be defined as "before the storm" and "after the storm."
 
I still agree with what Mike Gribble had to say...he was only making a point that people who could have evacuated didn't, which makes them idiots.

This was never an all inclusive statement! And it is in no doubt correct.

When people are told to leave and they choose not to, the consequences are of their own creation.

Does any person enjoy the fact that some that chose not to leave may die? Hardly! No person ever made that point..least as far as I can tell.

Pat
 
Another little thing that sort of fits in with this...I've caught some static for thinking this was a great storm. Why? Wasn't it?

No person can control what happens in the end...that doesn't mean those that enjoy storms need to feel any guilt just because one did tremendous amounts of damage....No storm watcher likes that, but they still like the storm.

Any of you guys have any thoughts on this?..Yo can't control what a storm does, but you can still admire it for what it is!
 
Thanks for the understanding Mike. And always stick to your guns.

I have asked the question myself, "Why didn't they leave?" Then I extend the question, why didn't the government build the levees higher? Certainly they knew this could happen. Why didn't Gulfport, of all places, after Camille, enforce building codes like there are here in Okinawa? (which suffers almost no damage from strong typhoons) Why didn't New Orleans hurry up their slow place of rebuilding the levees to prevent this? Why did Brett Farves' mom and grandfather have to ride out the storm in their attic? (certainly they had the means to flee) Why, why, why....

The sad thing is that it will happen again, probably in our lifetimes. Heck, it looks like a strong typhoon is on its way to Okinawa with winds forecast to be 140 knots. (and no where to evacuate to!) Needless to say, at least for this generation, most people in the US will evacuate.

Have a great day!
Tom
 
I have read several posts recently that have been very critical of these people's choices to stay in harms way. Hear me when I say that I agree with the fact that they should have left IF they had the means to.

They chose to live in an area that floods. We should not have to subsidize them for risky behavior. The looters sure look fit (or fat) enough to carry off big screen TVs. The looters don't look they are starving...

I wonder what the dog walker is thinking today?
 
Why did Brett Farves' mom and grandfather have to ride out the storm in their attic? (certainly they had the means to flee) Why, why, why....
people stay for several reasons.... afraid they cant get back to their house after storm.. protect it from looters... cant leave... no where to stay...no gas...and then some stay so they can loot. ( like half the people in new orleans).
I live in pensacola area and have experience many evacuations. I chose to stay with my property with the knowledge my home survay puts my house at 33 feet. may not seem like much but its enough elevation for me. my folks live at 14 feet, they leave.
99% of the home owners around here do not know the elevation of their property. The elevation in This lil ole blue coller neighborhood is worth more than that beatiful view. [/list]
 
Why are people who are going to do nothing more than be cold-hearted and critical even coming to ST and reading this forum (much less participating in it)? I guess they believe it's best to kick people when they're down. Some of the responses from regulars on this forum have made me shudder at what it must cause some of the guests to think of storm chasers.
 
Chasers have enough of an image problem already. But they are also human. It is no more surprising that we would have a variety of beliefs just like every other group of people does. No handful of people here posting those beliefs is going to be perceived as speaking for the entire group by anybody of moderate intelligence.

And who cares what those of less than moderate intelligence think? :lol:
 
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